Post Patch Impressions

[Murgos]

Logged in for about two hours last night.  Most of that time was spent shuffling around my spells/powers and examining the results of adding various +stat items to see what overall effect they had.

My initial impressions are postive.  At level 25 stuff greyed out to me at 21 pre-patch and thats dropped down to 18 now.  I like this change because it implies more options for what I want to do at a given moment.

After getting my house in order I set off into Stormhold to see what I could see.  I found a couple of level 18^^^ green con generics and pretty much beat thier asses.  So thats a positive.  Nothing like boosting the old ego by letting you kill something that says it's going to kick your ass.  With the exp bonus in effect I thnk I got 2% exp off of it, not too shabby.  Then I went and tried a level 19 ^^^ named and that was a lot tougher.  I still won but it was closer and I used all my power in the process and finished the fight at half health.  Still being able to kill a named ^^^ hopefully implies that I won't have to stress too much about finding groups to clear out my quest backlog (30 in Thundering steppes alone!) even if I don't get them done at an optimal level.

Melee damage is WAY up and, for me at least, spell damage is down.  Sword and board makes a big difference (about 10% avoidence with my crap gear) without sacrificing a lot of damage.  Previously the damage difference between 2-hander and 1-hs/shield was big enough to warrant ignoring the shield, at least at low levels.  I don't know how the changed armor system is going to work out in the long run, initial impressions are that it will help you to know when your gear sucks or not.  Something either has a higher mitigation value than another thing or it doesn't, pretty straight forward.  Jewelry now only gives stat bonuses and no longer adds to mitigation.  To me this means that level of your jewelry is not as important as what it buffs, *shrug* probably still a good idea to stay with white con gear if you can afford it.

Speaking of avoidence/mitigation  I was at around 46%/48% prepatch and now I'm at 30%/35% so thats a fairly significant change.  Being a paladin though I have heals and wards to offset that when soloing.  I don't know how much this is going to hurt other fighter classes that don't have that deep hit point tank that is provided by my mana, I assume that they can simply go all out with spells/combat arts and end the fight quicker and thus take less damage but things rarely work out that ideally in this complex a system.

Thats all I got time for today, work bekons and my schedule it full.  I'll be on tonight for at least an hour or so after 9 or 10 est if you want to compare notes on stats or what-have-you.

Also I put some stuff in the shiney new guild bank, help yourself if you need it.

[Miasma]

I was only on for an hour or so, I didn't do enough to give one big thumbs up/down.

Like:
- The servers didn't crash.  I really didn't think I would even be able to log on such is my dread of patches, never mind expansions.
- My pet seems a lot stronger, this is because he is Adept 1 and will now cast spells/skills at adept 1 quality, I guess it was just apprentice before.
- There was some other player being attacked by two mobs and I actually had the option of helping him.  I didn't need to as I watched him slowly overcome, but I liked knowing that I didn't have to stand there as someone died right in front of me.
- I have this cool spell that summons three fish, with my pet that is four mobs attacking my target, fun.
- I was able to remove my last name.

Dislike:
- Not ten seconds after I have logged in I get this large window with red text saying "So and So has challenged you to a duel" from some random guy standing around who doesn't know me.  Fuck off.
- Why did they go through all the effort to make the zones more solo friendly and then change their minds again?  All Griffons in Thundering Steppes are now ^^^, they also bumped up Antonican mobs.  It makes walking around solo rather difficult.
- The loss of mitigation.  I can understand taking it away from jewelry as the idea of an earring blocking that incoming axe swing is rather stupid but they didn't add any extra to the rest of the armor.  That's (I think) six slots worth of mitigation gone so I take damage a lot easier now.
- On the few spells I did cast I got a lot of resists, it's supposed to be offset by the fact that mobs don't mitigate, we'll see.
- They haven't done a very good job informing us of what the new content holds.  So is there a new big city like Qeynos/Freeport that those who bought it can go to, buy a home, tradeskill, recall to?

The /ooc reaction seemed mixed.

I'm guessing that with some fine tuning it might turn out all right.  I will go into Splitpaw tonight and see if I can still attack the groups of four even con mobs they send at you.  I'm going to be upset if I can't.

[Numtini]

Why did they go through all the effort to make the zones more solo friendly and then change their minds again?  All Griffons in Thundering Steppes are now ^^^, they also bumped up Antonican mobs.  It makes walking around solo rather difficult.

Because a lot of the old group camps didn't convert from group to solo, the converted from group to empty. As far as I saw on AB, Thundering Steppes was Giant groups and whomever was soloing what they needed for AQs. I never want to see a giant again.

The entire griffon plain there I think was a massive irritant. Lots of aggro and a bunch of fairly rare spawns needed for AQs. I imagine it's worse now if they're group.

[shiznitz]

Remember that the new con system is much broader, from vv to ^^^. What is ^^^ now used to be ^^. What is ^^ now can probably be duoed/trioed a lot easier than ^^ used to be. From what I am hearing from my guild so far, pure soloing did get a bit harder due to a wider band of green mobs (things that used to be grey are now green) and faster aggro reactions. However, a small group has a lot more options for finding challenging encounters. 

[Sauced]

I had planted myself in Stormhold, where I was in the middle of solo-ing some quests, with the purpose of seeing if I could still manage to solo in that area with the changes went live.  I died on my first attempt at a green ^^^ mob, which I'd been taking on 3 at a time prior.

My class' 2 defining traits, plate and Reactive heals, got f'd in the a, and I'm not feeling the new Mez line.  I can protect myself with a now-crappy reactive, mez an add, and when it breaks, the timer still has 2 seconds to go, and I'm getting the shit kicked out of me?  I can't parry anymore, the plate severely limits my avoidance and mitigation went way down.  What little offensive ability I had is gone as Smites are weak as hell, even if the power costs were cut in half.  So I am back to being a group class, which is cool I guess except that I like to solo.  I was having fun hopping around as a tank priest, but now I don't know what the fuck class I'm playing.  It's certainly not what I've spent a large chuck of free time on over the past month or so.

It's not that I don't understand the changes, necessarily, but I think I'm going to pass.

[shiznitz]

You are being way to hasty. You tried to solo a group mob. The whole point of the combat changes was to make this EXTREMELY difficult for someone in the best gear. This same mob was probably grey to you before as well, which means it missed a lot.

It is nonsensical to approach the game in the same way after a huge change. Figure out what the changes mean. Then play under the adjusted ruleset. If the game is worse after that, then fine, but don't quit because the game changed. You knew that was coming and you knew it wasn't going to change towards easier.

[Sauced]

But see, the thing is, I'm not married to EQ2.  I don't care.  So, if I was having fun doing something, and now I have to go find something else fun to do, that fun thing will most likely be cancelling my subscription and playing something else.  Just sayin'.

I haven't cancelled yet, though, and I have every intention of giving it a shot, seeing if there is some strategy to playing my "new" class that I enjoy.  The mobs I was talking about were not gray, by the way.  I was getting decent XP, doing some quests, having a good ol' time.  I can't finish those quests now without bringing at least one person.  Hey, it's a MMOG, I'm not complaining about that.  But the game I was playing seems to be gone, that's all.  I was really enjoying it, too.

[shiznitz]

With your experience more fleshed out, your skepticism makes more sense. If all the quests I intended to solo become group affairs then I will be annoyed right along with you.

[Cheddar]

I will give this a whirl tomorrow or Friday.  I went ahead and did a pre-cancel on my subscription.  See my favorite class is a Scout currently.  My Scout has had many issues soloing various quests (I even had to have help with a grey quest).  As said above, I am not married to this game. 

[shiznitz]

I played a bit last night. Some notes:

1) some mobs I was soloing for quests that used to be grey are now green or blue-, so while they are still really easy to kill I got exp for killing them when I wasn't before.

2) this does mean, however, that all zones are more dangerous with the con spectrum widening. RoV used to be 90% grey to my 37 bezerker. More than half the clay guardians are green or blue now. The plus to this is that your higher level friends can help you out more and not prevent chest drops. The green range is wide at 35+.

3) Taunt skills aren't as reliable. A guild group did Varsoon last night. Varsoon is now a 35^^^ vs 35^^. Our group ranged from 36-44. If I got initial aggro, the 40 guardian had a helluva a time getting it off me (not that he had too, though, since I was tanking just fine) in several tests we tried. If the guardian got inital aggro, he never lost it - not to the warlock, not to the 44 brigand. Initial aggro seems to be more important than it used to be and the taunt skills aren't as reliable. I bet this has to do with the stances. Our guardian was in defensive stance while I was in offensive.

4) my DPS is just fine, thank you. No complaints here.

5) our 42 warden didn't have any healing aggro problems, but then there wasn't much healing needed.

6) during some soloing I did, I had no problem handling low level adds. Green solos are just cake. Blue solos are pretyy damn easy too.

7) I earned about 10% of level 37 fighting green and blue ^^^ mobs in the aforemethioned group for about an hour. We had adds (all ^^^) on several occasions and were never in danger at all. My last good comparison pre-patch was fighting nightbloods in Rivervale for about 90 minutes non-stop and earning about 10%. The nightbloods are at least 10 levels higher than what were were fighting last night, but we also had several people 45+ in that group. I have never really been able to figure out how much higher level people affect the exp split in groups. All in all, the exp gain seemed quite generous last night given that there was basically zero risk and non-stop action.

[Murgos]

I do so little spell/CA damage now that I find myself not using any but the most efficient of my arts.  Seriously my mace (Starfall) hits for 60's frequently, completeing a solo HO does 45ish?  Meh.  So I find myself saving my mana for wards and heals, which makes for fairly boring gameplay.  Hit A and make a sammie anyone?

[jpark]

Not having played this game for about 8 months I popped in to have a look and spent a couple of nights playing.  Overall, I like the direction of the changes (comparing it to 8 months ago).  The game is moving in the right direction for me.  Keeping in mind I am a 28 Templar...

Key things that stand out for me at the moment:

EQ2 = caster Nerf. 
In EQ1 casters ruled over melee if you tried pvp - since melees could be kited / pwend.  Since there is not kiting in EQ2 that I am aware of, the tables seem turned, it is hard for caster types (Templars/ wizards) to keep their melee opponents at bay during these fights.  My Templar gets interrupted and I just don't see, at level 28, any strategic options aound this.

Priests = Commoditization
This is a more serious issue that persists.  More classes can heal yes - but more healing seems to be needed in groups.  I have now heard the expression "solo healing' which DOES NOT refer to healing while solo, but being the ONLY healer in a group lol.  For me this needs to change - part of what makes healing fun is your contribution to hp - but having 2 or more healers.. meh.

Combat Pace / Exp & Loot
Much faster compared to 8 months ago and the solo fights are "real" in that they can drop some decent loot and some decent exp.  Good change.

Traits / Racials
This area is still very muddied.  Choosing traits (increased def or choosing a spell to specialize) is a nice touch for the game but it is still unorganized and lacks any theme.  I wish EQ2 would follow the Talent tree idea - so that players feel that choices they make are not just from a basket every few levels and actuall build towards some differentiation.  Right now - correct me if I am wrong - I see NO place on the menu bar where I can review my trait / spell / attribute choices over my past 28 levels.

Kinetics/Armor
Mobs don't chase you to the zone line anymore - nice change - but I gather this happened sometime ago.  Armor seems to look better?  Movement kinetics have improved in some areas.  Also in-combat emotes my Templar dispalys in response to the pain of different attacks - or being knocked on his back - are nice touches.  Good stuff - but need more (e.g.  jumping kinetics and climbing still look awful).

WoW Priest / EQ2 Cleric... Dueling Feeling
With the Templar I felt I had almost no strategic options when dueling.  I can heal myself two ways (reactive or cast), attack with damage spells, try and mez my target for 12 seconds (woot!) or... so when I am getting interrupted or whatever I feel my options to do anything are very limited.  In contrast to my priest in WoW I can fear, mind control, damage over time/ instant damage, heal (instant, over time, cast), use uninterruptable casting, shield myself... I find the Templar for dueling has very few options.

Spell lines
Am I missing something here?  I don't understand why each time my "firebolt +1" spell gets upgraded it has a new name.  It makes it hard to identify it as an upgrade vs. a new spell line.  To remove confusion I sort my spells in my book by "category".  This unnecessary.  Just call it Heal Rank 4 - I don't need 4 different names for each level.

Dueling Bug: Death
Witnessed one real death during a duel and heard of others.  A bug like this in a game like EQ2 is pretty annoying.

New Mechanics?
I can't help but think of WoW simple ideas here: Rogues build up power through combination points with successful moves in a fight;  Warriors build up rage with damage they take; casters start with power which diminishes as the fight goes on.  Three different incarnations of a "mana bar".  EQ2 is really just working with the one - you start with 100 units - and it gets used up.  Asthetically I like the idea of warrior rage and damage, but in EQ2, all classes behave the same it seems.

Take Home
The changes these past 8 months are good.  But not enough.

[Murgos]

I unsubbed in a bout of frustration just now.

My char post changes has difficulty soling a white con skeleton (no arrows, normal difficulty), usually ending a fight at low health and very low mana, a creature type for which I have several abilites that do double damage.  These fights often lasted for 2 and a half to 3 minutes, BORING.  Non-undead solo mobs are VERY much tougher for my character.

Add into that the fact that there is even less solo content now and what there is is often intermixed with extremely deadly grouped heroic mobs and you get what I had just now, 5 deaths in an afternoon with a situation of compiling shards getting more and more difficult to recover.

Forget it, I can't enjoy this game as it is now.

[jpark]

That's too bad Murgos.  I did the same thing but I do believe I will return someday.  I am just becoming "uber" in WoW doing the high end runs... so time to enjoy that.

Going to boil this down the best way I can:

If there is an aspect of your character you cannot recall with clarity while offline, there is a serious problem with those gameplay elements.

As a Templar at 28 things I cannot remember (even pre-patch), compared to other games:

1.  All my spell lines.
2.  My racial/class/traditon choices
3.  My dps and power regen rates

This tells me that the class system in EQ2 is actually a bigger problem than combat.  I don't feel that way when I play - but using this measure - that's my conclusion.

[Strazos]

1.  All my spell lines.
2.  My racial/class/traditon choices
3.  My dps and power regen rates

Hell, I could probably never tell you those things for any character I have ever played in any game ever. It means jack and shit.

Dps and power regen rates? Give me a break.

[Cheddar]

It was just as I feared.  Even with the new damage skills I received I am still hurting; now I have to stealth everywhere, which doubles travel time.  It is just not worth it to me.  I am too annoyed to even bother with my mage now (as I said I was liking my scout guy - so does not really matter).

[jpark]

On a positive note - I do like the idea you can assign attribute points - more or less - as you level.  I like that challenge in deciding how to build a character.  This option was removed from WoW long before it went into beta I understand.

I also like the fact that, unlike WoW, you don't have the option respeccing by simply dropping some coin.  You have to live with your choices and be known for them.

[Trippy]

I also like the fact that, unlike WoW, you don't have the option respeccing by simply dropping some coin.  You have to live with your choices and be known for them.

Sigil sure is going to love you as a player.

[WindupAtheist]

Yeah, I loved that whole automatic stat allocation in WoW.  Because Diablo 2's character system allowed too much customization.

[Toast]

The stats are allocated in WoW, but the Talent trees offer more meaningful customization than just about any game out there.

[Hoax]

Wow.

That just made all this EQ2 forum reading totally worth it.  Unless somebody forgot the green text, in which case, yeah talent trees rool!

[Margalis]

What does being "known for your choices" mean? That sounds like code for "people will always laugh at you after you accidentally gimped yourself."

[Merusk]

On a positive note - I do like the idea you can assign attribute points - more or less - as you level.  I like that challenge in deciding how to build a character.  This option was removed from WoW long before it went into beta I understand.

I also like the fact that, unlike WoW, you don't have the option respeccing by simply dropping some coin.  You have to live with your choices and be known for them.

Stat allocation wasn't removed prior to beta, it was removed early in beta (about Dec 2003).  Too many people were gimping themselves and then complaining about it, so Bliz figured it was better to just let stats auto-allocate and you can customize through equipment if you so desire.  Yes, there were Agi-based warriors complaining that their damage was gimped and str-based rogues bitching that they couldn't hit for shit.  An open beta board is an amusing thing to read.

What does being "known for your choices" mean? That sounds like code for "people will always laugh at you after you accidentally gimped yourself."

Yes, that's exactly what it means.

[jpark]

What does being "known for your choices" mean? That sounds like code for "people will always laugh at you after you accidentally gimped yourself."

In warrior context maybe you went for resists (wisdom), strength (damage) or stamina.  Focusing on one of these changes the gameplay for a warrior - from main tank to off tank or durable low level damage dealer.  Different flavors of a warrior.  And yes you could be laughed at - it makes developing your character less than a trivial exercise as it really amounts to in WoW. 

WoW is a great game - but for me this is one way EQ2 - at this point - stands differentiated from it (in a positive way).

If you regret some choices you have to adapt to it - or re-roll.  For me this means that a in WoW parlance that protection tank you grouped with and liked at level 20 is the same guy at level 50.  It gets away from flavor of the week builds - and adds something durable about the characters in terms of their identity.

PVP

Duels:  I notice that in dueling there is a new menue option "duelbet" which I have not tried yet but the idea sounds neat.  Dueling is not coupled to a tangible bet.

Arena.  I tried this last night.  I chose an arena that would allow me to enter as I am rather than assume some monster form.  I was a bit disappointed.  Since EQ2 does not permit any notion of sidekicking to smooth out level differences - even in the arena - my opponent was 20 levels higher than me (hehe I got one-shotted).  There were less than 10 people in total even using the arena last night:

1.  EQ2 should follow WoW here - these arenas need some sort of reward mechanism beyond choosing more animal forms.
2.  Given the thin player population, side kicking may be necessary to smooth out level differences in the ring.

[jpark]

1.  All my spell lines.
2.  My racial/class/traditon choices
3.  My dps and power regen rates

Hell, I could probably never tell you those things for any character I have ever played in any game ever. It means jack and shit.

Dps and power regen rates? Give me a break.

Ya its tough.  Lets see... in WoW my priest:

1. DPS - wand - 61.
2. Mana regen - 68.

Whew.

Now for something harder.  Spell lines.  Odd thing - I have a hot key for one spell from each spell line ... since ... I dunno... I find myself using them (not going to bother to list them) 

In EQ2 for my priest (Templar) this is not as clear to me.  That means I have either failed to understand the class or the class itself is not very intuitive in its spell line organization.

[WindupAtheist]

The stats are allocated in WoW, but the Talent trees offer more meaningful customization than just about any game out there.

I've moved my UO character through three different variations of a samurai/necromancer hybrid alone, and they've all played very differently.  The talent system in WoW is just a ripoff of the system from D2, only not as cool.

[El Gallo]

In warrior context maybe you went for resists (wisdom), strength (damage) or stamina.  Focusing on one of these changes the gameplay for a warrior - from main tank to off tank or durable low level damage dealer.  Different flavors of a warrior.

 Say we have 5 variations of each: that's 120 different de facto classes.  The balance will be awful.  They cannot even balance the 24 they have. 

If you regret some choices you have to adapt to it - or re-roll.

These were the choices presented in AC1.  Most players took the third option: unsubscribe.  Realizing that the character you have grown to love over several months is laughably worthless because of a choice you made 2 days after you first logged in sucks more than anything else I can think of.  Fuck you, Turbine.  Fuck.  You.  /exhale.


Anyway, my understanding is that in the combat revamp EQ2 basically removed all the meaningful customization choices.  You used to get a choice of several attributes that you couldn't get anywhere else, and 1 of them was always the right one to pick (like +defense for tanks).  Now you get a choice of 1 of 4 master spells, which means if you pick a sub-par one you can just buy/make the others.  You also get a choice of "mob killer" spells, which I guess is real customization but I don't get the sense that they are really very important.  I could be wrong (I've never played past lvl 20 in that game). 
 
The bottom line is that I think you will never see a major game with meaningful customization with no respec option.  You'll get meaningful customization with respecs (WoW) or you will get meaningless customization without respecs (EQ2, though i think they hand out /respecs fairly often anyway?).

[edit]turned down the venom.  Get me drunk and I'll show you exactly where Turbine touched me

[Murgos]

From an overview of the classes EQ2 actually has 6 fighter variations, 6 rogue variations, 6 mage variations and 6 healer variations.  The problem is that they are all viewed as seperate entities rather than subsets.  The original idea (as I understand it) was that each subset should be able to perform the core abilites of the superset equally while adding thier own unique contributions (sounds like OOP inheretence to me).  Unfortunately this has turned out to be not a good solution because the added abilities of some of the subsets far outweigh the abilities of the others in performing thier core abilities.

If all fighters tank equally then Paladins are uber solo because they can heal themselves thus dramatically extending the size of thier hit-point tank allowing them to fight far more difficult mobs than other classes while alone.  If all fighters can tank equally then monks/beserkers/bruisers/shadowknights are better at general purpose because they do far more damage thus making thier hit-point tank more effective and thier fights shorter with less downtime in between.

But all fighters don't tank equally, guardians tank better so guardians are always first choice when a tank is needed thus rendering guardians more important than other fighter classes in the group centered dynamic.

The same problems exist among all the subclasses.

[schild]

This thread made me not want to play anymore. 

[WindupAtheist]

Were you really in a hurry to play in the first place?  WoW may be just another shitty Diku, but it's a better shitty Diku than EQ2.

[schild]

WoW may be just another shitty Diku, but it's a better shitty Diku than EQ2.

Not if you like that whole virtual world thing.

[WindupAtheist]

Not if you like that whole virtual world thing.

Did you ever entertain even a passing notion that either EQ2 or WoW would approximate a 'virtual world' in any meaningful way?

[Murgos]

EQ2 has far and away more personal customization options than WOW (not talking specs here just the meta stuff).  I wouldn't call either of them virtual worlds though.

[schild]

EQ2, as a virtual world, is total crap.

WoW doesn't even entertain the notion that the concept exists.

[Murgos]

No one will probably ever see this but I think this should be worth a chuckle:

New patch notes up (Yes, I quit, no, I am still addicted to watching the train wreck)

*** The Gigglegibber Goblin Gamblin' Game ***

- Fun-seeking tricksters calling themselves the "Gigglegibber Goblins" have been spotted recently selling tickets for a gamblin' game.
- 6 numbers are chosen, 1-50. If your 6 numbers match the winning numbers, you get the jackpot!
- The jackpot grows larger as more people play.
- Tickets for the game cost 1 silver each.
- Match 2, and you win 2 silver.
- Match 3, and you win 5 silver.
- Match 4, and you win 25 silver.
- Match 5, and you win 2.5 gold.
- Match all 6 and you win the jackpot!

According to google the permutations for 50 choose 6 are :

50 choose 6 = 15 890 700

Which is a number I would expect so I think it's right.  IF you assume there are 5000 people playing actively per server (and they purchase an average of 1 ticket per person) then someone MIGHT win once every 3 or 4 thousand drawings or so...

No wonder why the combat revamp sucks, no one at SOE understands probablity.