Guitar thread

[Nebu]

A couple of sites suggested that I try this book: The Art of Contemporary Travis Picking, by Mark Hanson.  I'm going to give it a shot.

[Sky]

I've got that book, it seems nice. I haven't done much with it because my thumb is retarded.

In my quest to find the right strings, I think I've finally come close. I bought a set of Ernie Ball 11s and swapped in a 6th string from a pack of 10s because my guitar is set up for 9s still, it buzzes a bit. If I stick with 11s, I'll have to rework some of the setup and hopefully not throw off the beautiful setup I got from the shop :)

11s are a motherfucker to bend for very long. I had been up to about 2-1/2 hour jam sessions, and yesterday I shredded my fingers after an hour of mostly just doing rhythms with only about 1/4 bendy solo jamming. I hope my fingers are up to it, because 11s feel right in just about every respect. Maybe it's the acoustic playing that has me favoring the heavier strings with a more rigid setup?

[Raph]

I have 9's on the electric, and I go nuts bending every which way when I play it, because I am so used to 13s on the acoustic.

[Amarr HM]

The guitar I use for playing slide uses 13/17/24(steel not wound)/35/46/56. The steel 24 is really hard to find luckily quite hard to snap also and when I haven't played consistently for a while this guitar cuts the fingers off me but great for the slide playin. I get funny looks in the guitar shop when I ask for one but I'll usually settle for a 22 steel.

[Nebu]

Have you looked at www.juststrings.com for the heavier steel strings?

They seem to have everything I need at decent prices.

[Amarr HM]

For some odd reason I never really think to buy stuff for my guitar on the net. I did once buy some lefthanded thumbpicks though as they were nowhere to be found, if I ever break a 24 I'll be ordering from that site thanks for that.

[Sky]

I have 9's on the electric, and I go nuts bending every which way when I play it, because I am so used to 13s on the acoustic.

I'm going to work on the 11s for a while because they feel so good. If they tear up my fingers too much I'll just have to suck it up and go back to 10s. 9s are too thin, I really like to power into bends. I've been breaking strings more lately and talking with the guy at the local shop to figure out why, he had me pull down a guitar and play. I never noticed how fucking savagely I attack with a pick. Well, I knew I was heavy-handed, but I blast the shit out of the strings, and my 1st strings are breaking right over the bridge pickup, where I generally hit the hardest.

[stray]

Funny. I'm the opposite. I've been playing 11's and even larger for years, but I'd rather go 10's or 9's these days.

[Nebu]

As you get older, lighter strings become attractive.  I found that as I play less and less per week that I lose a lot of speed and technique.  Using lighter strings allows me to keep some of the playing subtleties at the cost of richer tones.  I used to play some heavy damn cables on my bass 20 years ago.  Now, I play lighter strings and just give up the deeper tones.  As a hack guitarist, I guess I can't comment as well there. 

[Sky]

Oh, I'm a hack. I've just been able to play a lot more recently 

Still digging the Chord Tone Soloing book, though I've taken a break to work through the author's MI workbook on Fretboard Mastery. Because it's waaaaay past fucking time I can map out the notes on the fretboard. I'm much further along than I had thought, but it's time to plug the gaps, so I can break out of pattern-based playing. One thing about pattern-based playing, though, is that as long as I don't look at the fretboard, I can play in any key :) My favorite is probably Fb. 

[Oz]

My favorite is probably Fb

I see what you did there.  a music funny.

[Sky]

 

[Raph]

You go through more books...

[stray]

I still didn't get that one book he mentioned like I said I would.. but I want to.

I've not been very good with books in general. I read the fuck out of guitar tech and recording books though. Things with a technical/engineering and recording effects bent. I wish I had the resources to learn how to be a luthier or something too. And wished I knew enough about electronics to build my own amplifiers, stompboxes, and preamps.

[Sky]

You go through more books...

I do work at a library and my fiancee's a librarian. Lots of time at B&N :) Anyway, it's mostly searching for books that I connect with. Most have a chapter or two I can integrate but most doesn't sink in, and instructors are too expensive, especially since I have to travel a half hour to get to a decent one.

The two I'm working on now, along with a couple others, are pretty much exactly what I need for fretboard mastery and basic theory. I've got my ear most of the way back, but I still like tab books to get the nuances I might miss, and I do make corrections in bad tabs, which is pretty helpful. If I had more time in the day, I'd go back to transcribing stuff in blank tab books, but I'd rather spend my time playing.

I'm really happy with where I'm at right now, though. As I've said, it's long overdue to fill in the knowledge gaps and I'm a good enough player that I owe it to myself. Along with making a little progress singing and playing. The last really big hurdle is thumb training and maybe reading notation a little faster.

[Raph]

My latest noodling around... only half guitar. Hmm.

http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/19/the-sunday-song-harvest-festival/

[Nebu]

My girlfriend and I have started to do some singing/playing and this may be the time to build small recording setup to start capturing some of my original stuff.  Any suggestions?  I have mics, monitors, cabinets, etc.  I just want something to do the recording. 

Is there a reasonable (read: inexpensive) 4-8 channel out there worth buying?

What effects should I consider (rack mount, multi units, compressors, EQ, etc)? 

Drum machines worth a damn?

Basically, what is the minimum I need to record decent quality composed arrangements?  I can play all the stringed instruments, keyboards, and any brass/sax parts.  The last time I did any serious home recording was duing the fostex cassette 4-track days. 

Any input appreciated.

[Sky]

I like my MR8HD. You can get 8 tracks with bouncing, but it's basically a 4 track. I've meant to start post-processing on the pc, but that's the part where I get lazy. Actually, before that.

I've decided I don't like any drum machines. The one I used to use was a Boss DRsomething 808, maybe. I really have an abiding hate for the model Raph will suggest :) But Raph uses MIDI, so it's probably easier to set up. I used the pads to play the beat into it, and tried to manually program some stuff step-wise. I'm setting up my drums as soon as I can cobble together a little riser in the garage, will record them when I get a couple more mics.

I just watched Keith Moon at the Isle of Wight and he only had three crash cymbals, set at 10, 12 and 2. Awesome! Keith Moon amazes me. Then I was watching the Ginger cat play with Cream and Blind Faith and, well, he sucks. I don't like drummers that lose the beat when they're putting in fills (acknowledging I'm a shitty drummer, though!).

Raph: the drums seem forced and inorganic (and not just because of the aforementioned feelings about your machine, heh). I wish your widget allowed me to reduce volume :) Anyway, the interaction between the guitar chop chords and drums was weird, imo. Note: I don't like modern jazz (but I love old jazz, Django and Basie stuff). Nice tinkling piano, the acoustic patch line. Boo on the synth patch (personal dislike, again). Potential in the progression, but for some reason I kept stalling out around 12-14 seconds in. Sorry this is kinda rough criticism, I must be grumpy :)

[stray]

The person I know who made drum machines sound good was.....

a drummer.

Go figure.

It's really not so much about the tool (not saying real drums aren't better!).. They can sound pretty good.

[Nebu]

I just watched Keith Moon at the Isle of Wight and he only had three crash cymbals, set at 10, 12 and 2. Awesome! Keith Moon amazes me. Then I was watching the Ginger cat play with Cream and Blind Faith and, well, he sucks. I don't like drummers that lose the beat when they're putting in fills (acknowledging I'm a shitty drummer, though!).

Keith plays drums like it's just another instrument... it's not about backbeat, it's about being part of the music.  There used to be an old joke that went something like "did you hear the band that went down in a plane crash?  The headlines stated that 3 musicians and a drummer died."   I love Keith, Bonham, and Peart for this reason.  All three are musicians rather than just being drummers. 

[Raph]

Nebu:

First off, I would go digital. I have a rackmount compressor and a reverb unit gathering dust under my desk. Record to hard drive, do everything else digitally.

You'll still want multiple channels of input into the computer -- a mixer with XLR and 1/4 inch inputs and effects loop (in case you do want to add outboard stuff). I manage to use my old Tascam 4 track for this -- the tape sits idle, I just use the mixing capabilities and go through the line out.

Drum machines -- I just use the one I happen to know. Pick the one you like the sound of. I don't do the drum machine via MIDI, actually.

[Nebu]

Nebu:

First off, I would go digital. I have a rackmount compressor and a reverb unit gathering dust under my desk. Record to hard drive, do everything else digitally.

You'll still want multiple channels of input into the computer -- a mixer with XLR and 1/4 inch inputs and effects loop (in case you do want to add outboard stuff). I manage to use my old Tascam 4 track for this -- the tape sits idle, I just use the mixing capabilities and go through the line out.

Raph,

I saw you guys mentioning software a few pages back.  Should I just go with those recommendations or do you have other suggestions.  I'm used to recording bass and guitar by direct box, but have a new room with great acoustics that I may start live micing with instead.  If you have any opinions on ways to do this, I'd be grateful.

[Raph]

Raph: the drums seem forced and inorganic (and not just because of the aforementioned feelings about your machine, heh). I wish your widget allowed me to reduce volume :) Anyway, the interaction between the guitar chop chords and drums was weird, imo. Note: I don't like modern jazz (but I love old jazz, Django and Basie stuff). Nice tinkling piano, the acoustic patch line. Boo on the synth patch (personal dislike, again). Potential in the progression, but for some reason I kept stalling out around 12-14 seconds in. Sorry this is kinda rough criticism, I must be grumpy :)

No worries on the rough criticism, I am used to getting it since I never wait until something is baked to post it up. :)

The drums are straight out of the machine, I didn't program them at all, So I am unsurprised they sound inorganic!

This one was a pain to put together, rhythmically. I did the guitar part first over the drums, and it's just tricky to do right all the way through. I got it better at middle than at the opening. The bass is a mess too. It's really frustrating to hear something in your head and hear how snappy it would sound if you just could play it right! Sigh. I couldn't quite find a horns patch I was happy with.

I'll have to go dig up the chords I used for the progression, lots of crazy jazzy chords I will need to figure out what they are. :)

You know, I didn't try mixing it without the drums... maybe i should try that.

[Raph]

Raph,

I saw you guys mentioning software a few pages back.  Should I just go with those recommendations or do you have other suggestions.  I'm used to recording bass and guitar by direct box, but have a new room with great acoustics that I may start live micing with instead.  If you have any opinions on ways to do this, I'd be grateful.

There are a lot of software choices. Personally, I prefer using something more studio-oriented than something that is pure audio recording, but others prefer the reverse.

By audio oriented I mean stuff like SoundForge, Audacity. You're working with raw sound.

By studio-oriented I mean something like Cakewalk, Acid, etc.

If you're less into techno and MIDI and the like, then you may prefer the stuff that is not aimed in that direction, but I know folks who swear by Reason.

Acid, Garage Band, those are loop-based. Which I find really handy even if I am doing full length recording, because you can stripe stuff, cut and paste really easily, etc, and mix MIDI and acoustic stuff easily.

You can pick up the lowest end Acid for around $50 at Walmart or Target, and it might be nice for getting your feet wet.

As far as using mics -- I have the following set up:

Mic -> mic preamp -> Tascam -> sound card -> Acid
Mic -> Tascam
Drum machine - > Tascam
Guitar/bass -> Acoustic amp -> line out to Tascam (use for mixing the line and the acoustic signal)
Keyboard -> Midi -> Acid (for MIDI patches)
Keyboard -> line out to sound card (for recording the keyboard directly)

I tend to use the pre-amped mic for room and overall detail, and the other mic as a closely miked instrument mic, or for vocals.

[IainC]

The person I know who made drum machines sound good was.....

a drummer.

Go figure.

It's really not so much about the tool (not saying real drums aren't better!).. They can sound pretty good.

Chris Vrenna (Nine Inch Nails) is pretty much the reference for digital drumming.

Years ago I was at a symposium in London where Ginger Baker, Chad Smith and Bernard Purdie were talking about acoustic vs digital instruments. All good stuff then Chris came on stage and proved them all wrong.

[Phildo]

(had a whole thing written out here but it go lost - thanks Internet)

Nebu: what Raph said.  Pick something in your price range, or keep using what you're already familiar with.  The major differences between everything (except for pro-tools) are what plug-in formats they use (look for VST compatibility) and the UI.

Stray/IainC: This is my friend from Orlando.  He's not a drummer at all, but he makes some of the coolest percussion sequences.  Be warned, his music is a bit odd.  He works primarily in FL Studio, and he makes his own VSTs for some of his synths.

[Sky]

Keith plays drums like it's just another instrument... it's not about backbeat, it's about being part of the music. 

That's what I said (and caught a LOT of shit for) when I was playing bass primarily. I'm a musician who plays a few instruments. I do not play them like I'm "supposed to", I play them the way that feels right and best captures what I hear mentally to the best of my limited capacity to carry out. I would add Mitch Mitchell to your list. I also like some slightly more traditional drummer if they drip soul, like the cat playing on my very favoritist James Brown disc (one you MUST own, go buy it now, I'll wait) Say It Live And Loud from Dallas TX.

I don't inherently dislike drum machines, it's just that it's so difficult to get the kind of drumming I like out of one without being a complete master. And honestly, NIN's style of music is much better suited to a machine than Mr. Brown's would be :)

Since we're talking a bit of recording, I am still at the bare-bones stage.

61 SG -> Boss GT6 -> Fender Deluxe Reverb 65 -> Shure SM58 -> MR8HD
Vocals -> Shure SM58 -> MR8HD
Bass -> MR8HD (laziness)
Acoustic -> Shure SM58 -> MR8HD or
Acoustic -> MR8HD (which sounds like dookie)

I need some new mics, a couple SM57s and something for the kick drum /at least/. SM57s would serve duty for almost everything from amps to ambient to drum miking whether I go stereo or positional or whatever.

I used a cheap copy of acid that came bundled with something back in the 90s and liked it. I should've cowboyed up for a recording setup before I bought the house :) MacBook Pro + Digi002 *drool*

[stray]

(had a whole thing written out here but it go lost - thanks Internet)

Nebu: what Raph said.  Pick something in your price range, or keep using what you're already familiar with.  The major differences between everything (except for pro-tools) are what plug-in formats they use (look for VST compatibility) and the UI.

Stray/IainC: This is my friend from Orlando.  He's not a drummer at all, but he makes some of the coolest percussion sequences.  Be warned, his music is a bit odd.  He works primarily in FL Studio, and he makes his own VSTs for some of his synths.

That's cool. I know some dnb and hip hop producers who do cool beats as well... I just meant that my drummer friend knew how to turn a pad into a bonafide instrument, and be pretty dynamic about it. He could get a lot of use out of one without sequencing... just improvising with a live band.

[Miguel]

Here's a setup I found useful:  I use a Roland TD8 along with one of Roland's Snare Drum Triggers to capture a more natural performance.  If I'm not using the manual trigger with a pair of sticks I can also trigger the sound module with MIDI.

Also, a lot of the MIDI sound libraries are starting to have very good drum kits if you don't want a hardware solution.  For example, Garritan's Jazz Brush Kit is excellent, especially when coupled to a real person playing a good triggering system like a VDrum set that understands velocity, etc.  MIDI generated drum lines can be made to sound good if you take care to vary the timing of the hits and apply random velocities, as too perfect timing for drums just sounds 'wrong', no matter how good of a sound library is attached.

Good trigger setups and libraries are expensive, but totally worth it for really professional results.

[Nebu]

Appreciate all the input.  I'm going to see what I can put together for $1000 or so.  My new livingroom is empty and has some really amazing acoustics.  If I can con my girlfriend into doing some vocal tracks, I may post a song or two once I get them to a point that I can live with them.  Of course, this may be a month or two down the road. 

[Raph]

You know, I didn't try mixing it without the drums... maybe i should try that.

MUCH better, I think.

http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/20/a-much-better-harvest-festival/

[Sky]

Still gets stuck at Buffering... after ten to fourteen seconds. Sounds way better without the drums confusing things, though.

I also need to get off my ass and start recording again. No excuse at this point :)

[Raph]

Here's a direct link:

http://www.raphkoster.com/music/HarvestFestival2.mp3

[Sky]

This Account Has Exceeded Its CPU Quota

[Raph]

I just got thru, try again?

My webhosting makes me a sad panda lately.