Too many blasters?

[Mesozoic]

I'm ninth level now and I've pretty much moved to Perez Park full-time, with its large street corner gangs providing far more amusement than the muggers and car thieves of Atlas.  Yesterday I was in a group of 6 blasters and a tanker before the tanker left to find "someone with some healers, goddamnit."  Granted I think this had more to do with some of the blasters not understanding the mechanics of The Assist than anything else, but it left me wondering if this is typical of the game past the lowest levels.

Anyone else seen this (or any other) imbalance?

[Bitter Beard]

I'm an Emp/Rad Defender on Victory and I never have problems finding a group, the biggest problem I do have is lower level random pubies pleading with me to hang while they fight some tough mobs that are usually gray to me.

I see plenty of other emp defenders so I'd say it is just the starting levels, people that don't know what they want to play yet so they keep switching. There are a number of blasters but a lot of them prefer to solo around 20th lvl.

[DarkDryad]

Im an emp /dark defender and I am loved by all for my healing abilities. Pretty much have been leveling with Aslan and Blue Bomb fairly exclusively as they are like 4-5 levels ahead of me and ost stuff is still purple to me but im catching them.

[Xilren's Twin]

Yesterday I was in a group of 6 blasters and a tanker before the tanker left to find "someone with some healers, goddamnit."  Granted I think this had more to do with some of the blasters not understanding the mechanics of The Assist than anything else, but it left me wondering if this is typical of the game past the lowest levels.

With 6 blasters im amazed he'd be drawing much aggro at all?  I would have guessed he would have left b/c he was bored watching all the blasters kill stuff while he might take down 1 mob a group.  But that depends on exactly how it was being played out.  However, Tankers do seem to be rather lacking thus far at lower levels.  Though supposedly at higher levels vs really scary bosses they become far more useful. Can't say that i've grouped with enough to speak of.

Xilren

[Riggswolfe]

Aslan and I have had this discussion before. Blasters actually have issues finding groups at higher levels because there are too many of them. Defenders and tankers are practically begged for. I saw someone offer 10k influence to a tanker if they'd just join their group.

Tanker to me looks boring. It takes the typical mmo idea of gimping melee all to hell and letting them take hits. I don't know who first came up with this bright idea but they need to be put through the brainwashing technique of a Clockwork Orange. Repeatedly.

[Mesozoic]

With 6 blasters im amazed he'd be drawing much aggro at all?

It went like this:

1.  Tanker taunts mob.
2.  Blasters ignore tanker and fire shit in every direction.
3.  Mobs swarm past tanker and chase blasters all over the park.
4.  Blasters die.
5.  Tanker dies.

[Daeven]

6. Tanker screams 'screw you n00bs' and runs away?

[Mr_PeaCH]

Tanker to me looks boring. It takes the typical mmo idea of gimping melee all to hell and letting them take hits. I don't know who first came up with this bright idea but they need to be put through the brainwashing technique of a Clockwork Orange. Repeatedly.

Concur.  And I normally *like* to play a tank class in the traditional, D&D, MMOPRG sense.  But compared to how cool (and useful) the fluff is for the CoH 'cleric' class (ie. Defender) I felt I had no choice other than to roll up an Empath/Energy Defender to put DAoC's Smite Clerics to shame.  Just for fun I was playing with my boy and we chose a Tanker and it just seemed as dull as the day is long compared to all the other CoH flavors.  Actually, the more I think about it; this is probably testament to just how much more fun the other archtypes are.  Obviously Tankers are still 'useful'... but CoH didn't really achieve anything in this area compared to the other class types, imo.

[kaid]

The damage you do as a tanker kinda depends on your melee selection. Many of the melee tank sets have alot of utility powers at the sacrifice for offensive punch. Some like mace and axe have little to no utility powers but do some SERIOUS damage. Combined with weapon power accuracy and tanks ability to take a whoopin it accounts for some of the highest level characters in beta being tanks.

Also if you focus on your defense powers tankes rarely die thus far less debt thus they level faster and easier than blasters.

The higher you get the more mob AI you see when you start to get things that teleport behind you or do other various things you will feel the lack of tankers in your group sharply.

kaid

[Aslan]

Sad thing is, those blasters could have probably taken down anything in the park if they had just concentrated their fire and worked as, oh, I don't know, a fucking TEAM.  Sounds like it's not so much the plethora of blasters as a dearth of skills.

[Mesozoic]

Its not knowing how to assist.  The whole "target the tank and fire" thing was Greek to them even after I told them numerous times.  It just feels wrong.

[Daeven]

But compared to how cool (and useful) the fluff is for the CoH 'cleric' class (ie. Defender) I felt I had no choice other than to roll up an Empath/Energy Defender to put DAoC's Smite Clerics to shame.

Agreed. this is basically why I ended up in the 'scrapper' class. More interesting theme and fluff. Of course, I do like the look of my tank 'Irritable Gnat'...

[Alluvian]

Definately a lack of skill.  At level 9 as a fire/fire blaster I was easily soloing the minion groups of levels 7-10.  The only thing I had to avoid was bosses.  Any number of minions was not a problem.  Although others messing up my clumping AOE techniques could have actually been a hindrance more than a help if they sucked.

[DarkDryad]

See our group has this rule Aslan and BB bow shit up and I try to keep them healed. It works well IMHO.

[eldaec]

In the last week of beta the entire game was played kneedeep in a swarm of redundant blasters begging for work.

I expected the issue to get worse in retail.

But strangely I haven't noticed any particular archetype being significantly more common than others lately. Perhaps I've just been lucky.

I expect this will change at higher levels once "teh community" have decided which classes are really the percieved uber ones.

The real issue in all-blaster (not energy) groups is cc though. You can do fine with very little healing if you have enough cc.

In other news, Hurricane rocks.

[Daeven]

I think it also depends on the type of blaster you play. My charater on Virtue, Armed liberal, is a gun toter who uses his enhanced 'knockback' skills to dusrupt the onrushing hoardes, while hovering over the fray - and then using the 'snipe' skill to whittle down any bosses.

It seems to work pretty well in keeping the tanks and scrappers from 'drowning' in the rush.

*shrug*

[Sky]

Hmm. I've pretty much soloed almost the entire time, and I don't really shy away from any mob at all, though some larger groups take a bit more in the way of tactics (like drawing off the 2 shockers and lead shocker for a high altitude dogfight).

But even as a mainly solo character, I know how to properly use the assist abilities in this game (which are excellent). Then again, it's pretty damn easy to assist by eye, too imo since I don't think mobs stack up like they do in some other mmogs (ie: all stand in the same physical spot).

Im an emp /dark defender and I am loved by all for my healing abilities.

...almost all. ^^

[stray]

Agreed. this is basically why I ended up in the 'scrapper' class. More interesting theme and fluff. Of course, I do like the look of my tank 'Irritable Gnat'...

Going scrapper here too, mainly because it's the most viable for solo play. Not that they aren't group friendly, but at least they don't have to be, and won't die in a few hits, like most blasters will find out (maybe Assault is pretty solo-friendly?). The only other character I've settled on (for the same reason) is an Illusion Controller. Stone Tanker looks pretty fun too.

[DarkDryad]

Hmm. I've pretty much soloed almost the entire time, and I don't really shy away from any mob at all, though some larger groups take a bit more in the way of tactics (like drawing off the 2 shockers and lead shocker for a high altitude dogfight).

But even as a mainly solo character, I know how to properly use the assist abilities in this game (which are excellent). Then again, it's pretty damn easy to assist by eye, too imo since I don't think mobs stack up like they do in some other mmogs (ie: all stand in the same physical spot).

Im an emp /dark defender and I am loved by all for my healing abilities.

...almost all. ^^

One should stay somewhat in range of the healer for healing to take effect as well ;)  I think we just had a bad day imho we were looking to take on stuff we shouldnt have at those levels with just 2 of us. BTW at this level im much more effective :)

[Sky]

I know, I was just busting balls because that night was kind of a mess on my part. I was still in gung ho solo mode and just upped my damage intake because I had a healer in the team, without adjusting anything else. Totally my bad :)

I'm also far more effective (since I don't get hit by melee anymore, especially) nowadays. Did I just say nowadays? Anyway, we have to get back together, or more correctly, I need to hook up with you guys. I've eased off all this week as I've been playing pretty hardcore since prerelease (well, by my standards its been hardcore...). But a three day weekend on the way!

[DarkDryad]

Gak i dont play on the weekends... thats wife time and she gets mighty fussy bout her 2 days. As for the part about getting hit in melee prepare to get your boxxers roxxored. Level 22 -25 badies hurt when they hit if ya werent aware heh.

[geldonyetich]

In beta, I was once in an interesting group with 4 blasters, 2 defenders, 2 controllers.

We were in Perez Park, and we were able to fight entire groups of Hydras 6-8 levels higher than us (often literally double our level) with surprisingly few deaths.

Basically a couple Blasters with devices would throw some caltrops between us and the hydras, then they'd start to nuke a straggler who would come alone.  We'd throw a snowstorm on it to slow it yet further, and usually that hydra was dead before it even reached the team.   Hydras ranged attacks were vastly inferior to their melee and thus quickly healed.  

Sometimes entire groups of Hydras came at us, and things become a bit more risky.   However, we still managed to take them out with AoE and gusting the hydras back if they were overtaking the caltrops.

Good power leveling tactic here if we ever needed to confront higher level mobs whose melee is substantially more a threat than their ranged.

Shortly afterward I posted up a thread entitled, "Who needs Scrappers/Tankers anyway" which was blown off in the usual fanboish fashion with claims that things are different at higher levels.

[HaemishM]

For my money, if you want to play a melee character, go scrapper. Many of the tanks won't do as much damage as a scrapper, and if you go for damage avoidance, you have enough hit points to take on things and still see nice damage numbers pop up. Sure, they might die a bit more than tanks, but they are a more interesting meleer, IMO.

I hate the idea of the gigantic tank not being able to do as much damage as the blaster because his entire utility is making sure the blaster doesn't get hit. It's so against my playstyle.

[Alluvian]

As kaid has said a few times, axe and mace do good damage.  And scrappers eventually have to be really careful who they fight and what kind of groups.  Tanks just start out slow.

[kaid]

One thing that can lead to tanks seeming a bit slow early on is endurance. Tanks have a lot more auras and end usage than most scrappers do. As you level and start getting the better enhancers tanks turn into man eating monsters. They can if built for it do serious damage and beat the piss out of things at a time.

Real man eaters are fire/axe tankers. Fire tankers get an endurance drain power than can give them about 70% of their end back in one chunk. Sure axe may be slow but almost every power in the axe pool is an attack so they can rapid fire off big damage knock back knock down blows and keep up that kind of punishment over the long haul.

One of the highest fastest leveling natural characters in beta who did most of his leveling solo was madaxer which was a fire/axe tank.

Kaid

[stray]

which was blown off in the usual fanboish fashion with claims that things are different at higher levels.

What lvl were the hydras? Sounds cool, but I also think Assault and/or Devices has something to do with it...Lots of cool shit there, especially against melee.

[daveNYC]

I hate the idea of the gigantic tank not being able to do as much damage as the blaster because his entire utility is making sure the blaster doesn't get hit. It's so against my playstyle.

I have yet to accept a group invite due to my short play sessions, but soloing is still fun with my tank, especially if I find a rooftop fight, using the punch knockback to send someone over the edge of the roof is more fun than you can shake a stick at.

[MrHat]

Just thought I'd put a mention out about my blaster:

He's a fire/devices blaster and quite literally a solo'ing machine.  I took myself from 9-14 solo in perez very very easily.

Step 1.  2-slot Caltrops are very very slow, wait for a group to get all close together, and drop these babies in the middle of them.  There is risk involved in this because if there is a stunner in the group of baddies, you might be too close for comfort.

Step 2.  6-slot Rain of Fire is very very deadly.  Currently I have 4 damage and 2 recharge, endurance be damned.  I cast this in approximately the same place I drop the caltrops.  When the baddies are taking damage from the fire, they typically stop attacking and try to get away.  Which of course, they can't because of the caltrops.

Step 3.  If the mobs you are fighting are Green Lt, or Blue+ anything, you'll want to throw in a fireball here and start dropping single target fireblasts on the baddies who look tough.

Step 4.  If you have haste on, drop a second fireball, if not, look for another group to pester, shut off your persitant skills, regen end, and repeat.

It's worked wonders so far.  I do however have real problems with the ranged attacks as I have no defense skills whatsoever.  No hover, no combat jump.  I'm thinking about taking fitness as a second pool (first pool being teleport).  My only real complaint so far is that I don't have build-up and therefore don't get to see my Rain of Fire do it's real damage potential.



I don't know where that fits into the post.  My attempt at fitting in coming up.

Kaid:  I have a fire/ice tanker at about L8.  Just got consume and he's beginning to come into his own.  It's just very hard to go from my crazy up front damage blaster to my patient killer tanker.  I use the DoT damage aura, shield aura, self heal and consume.  And only frozen fists from the ice pool as I'm waiting for some aura skills.  Will be getting fitness pool to compensate endurance hopefully.

[kaid]

Well if you only have one attack then yes you will keeel slowly. Hehe at level 4 my baby axe tanker has 3 attacks so far so I can pretty much swing constnatly as endurance holds out.

Kaid

[Mesozoic]

Maybe part of the problem is that the game draws a pretty sharp line between melee and ranged heroes.  I for one would give up some ranged ability to make my char less of a pansy in melee, but I don't have the option.  To go for melee is to be 100% melee.

In addition, theres the mob AI.  As fun as it is to watch baddies flee, its gotta be annoying when you have zero ranged ability.

[kaid]

Yup lack of range as a melee is annoying. Some melee sets are kind of hybrid though for damage/range. If you like melee but are annoyed by runners spines scrappers are nice. They get a number of ranged attacks one of their best ones impale has pretty darn decent range good damage and it can ROOT your target.

Many tank sets do get some ranged attack at higher level but most of those attacks are quite far down their lists.


Kaid

[Alluvian]

And other tanks/scrappers just take teleport foe to get by this.  No chasing needed.

[tar]

re:fleeing mobs.

Superjump + follow works well :)

engaged in melee, hit 'f' to stick to mob.

if they run, toggle on superjump, tap jump and queue your attack:

BOING! SMACK!

ok maybe not the most efficient way but it's fun :)

[kaid]

Hehhe you must be the puma man!


Kaid

[Riggswolfe]

Concur.  And I normally *like* to play a tank class in the traditional, D&D, MMOPRG sense.  But compared to how cool (and useful) the fluff is for the CoH 'cleric' class (ie. Defender) I felt I had no choice other than to roll up an Empath/Energy Defender to put DAoC's Smite Clerics to shame.  Just for fun I was playing with my boy and we chose a Tanker and it just seemed as dull as the day is long compared to all the other CoH flavors.  Actually, the more I think about it; this is probably testament to just how much more fun the other archtypes are.  Obviously Tankers are still 'useful'... but CoH didn't really achieve anything in this area compared to the other class types, imo.

Well like I said, they just used the typical MMOG stereotype. It is probably my biggest frustration with these games. I'm playing a warrior in WoW in the vain hope that a dev at Blizzard has watched Lord of the Rings and says "Hey, Aragorn didn't stand there like a dumb post and take hits while Gandalf killed everything.".

Why Devs in these games are so blind to making melee fun is beyond me. Luckily Warriors in WoW are fun though still outclassed by mages by far. Rumor is when talents are put back in this will change.

I couldn't be payed to play a tanker. A scrapper yes. Tanker, no.