Too many blasters?

[Sky]

I think any game designer working on melee stuff should be forced to play Oni. I'm sure there are other great melee titles, but Oni's system was simply incredible, from the 4 way attack possibilities to combos to grapples (using an enemy's gun against his buddy), just a great system that I rarely hear getting any credit.

[geldonyetich]

And other tanks/scrappers just take teleport foe to get by this. No chasing needed.

Tried this back in beta with my Scrapper.  It shortens the run time, but it doesn't eliminate it.   This is because the mob is off and running the moment it arrives when you're still part-way through the Teleport Foe animation.   You'll still have to do a bit of chasing to take it down.

Somebody round' here told me that Taunt gets runners to turn around and re-engage you.   Haven't tried it, but I seem to recall back in beta that a runner is a runner, regardless of what state you put it in -- thus a confused mob tends to keep running.   A taunted and running mob, even with a higher level of hate towards you, will probably just keep running unless they changed it since I last used Taunt to also cancel out the running state.

Well like I said, they just used the typical MMOG stereotype. It is probably my biggest frustration with these games. I'm playing a warrior in WoW in the vain hope that a dev at Blizzard has watched Lord of the Rings and says "Hey, Aragorn didn't stand there like a dumb post and take hits while Gandalf killed everything.".

That's more or less D&D's fault, really.   They designed the game in such a way that a Warrior is a standard hacker that has a bit battery of hitpoints but their Wizards are capable of doing incredible things with their spells but are just frail little buggers without their spells to back them up.

For what it's worth, CoH and other newer MMORPGs are working to break this stereotype.   Tankers may not inflict as much damage as Scrappers, but with their AoE damage it's often not that bad, possibly tied with Defenders.   I'd have to say that Controllers take the cake for doing the least damage, but that's because they've some very powerful moves that influence combat in entirely different ways.

[kaid]

Actually depending on the tankers melee set they can do much more damage on average than defenders do. Defenders hit for less but have longer range and some extra cc effects.

The only powers defenders have that puts up much bigger numbers than tanks can do is the sniper skills but for every one big sniper attack the tanker will probably get 2 or 3 attacks off for the same damage.

With my level 34 storm psychic with all but the last two attack powers in psychic my old groups axe tank and earth tank consistantly outdamaged me. The only time I would show up as having done more damage is if I got lucky and landed a psi lance to start the mob off.


Kaid

[Valmorian]

Somebody round' here told me that Taunt gets runners to turn around and re-engage you.   Haven't tried it, but I seem to recall back in beta that a runner is a runner, regardless of what state you put it in -- thus a confused mob tends to keep running.   A taunted and running mob, even with a higher level of hate towards you, will probably just keep running unless they changed it since I last used Taunt to also cancel out the running state.

It depends why they are running.  Sometimes they won't turn around again, but as an experiment, try the following:

Find a purse snatcher duo.  You know the one with the purse ALWAYS runs, right? well, smack the other, and when the purse snatcher runs, taunt him.   I've tried this over and over again, and he always stops and comes back to fight me.

However, I've had mobs with very little health left that will NOT come back if taunted.  Basically, if they are running because they are low on health, I don't believe taunt works.  If they are running because of some other AI reason, they will often react to taunt and come back.

[Alkiera]

I bought taunt at 6 with my ice/mace tanker because of this thread, and did actually have a nearly-dead guy turn around after starting to run off, when I taunted him.

Admittedly, he wasn't the last guy in the group, so he may have thought his buddies could help him.  They didn't.

As a side note, I'm enjoying my tanker.  He has survival down to an art form that the other archetypes really don't understand.  A few bad miss strings doesn't mean he dies like it does with my scrapper..  and fighting yellows/oranges is quite doable, in small groups.  (Killed 2 yellow minions and 2 orange Lts that were with them, with help from a few inspirations.  one was accuracy, also 1 each of health and end, but I killed them all, at level 5 or so.)

I really don't see a huge drop in damage numbers from playing a scrapper.  May partially be due to the melee set I chose, not sure.  I only have 2 attack powers besides brawl, but they hit Hard, unlike the more frequent, milder hits I'm used to with a scrapper.

Nahrl is a big blonde bearded guy with a hatred for Nazis...  His natural origin ensures he sees lots of them, tho.

--
Alkiera

[HaemishM]

Can taunt be used to pull a single mob from range?

[Rasix]

Yes and no.  From my experience, some mobs are just "linked".  Meaning you attack one and the other one is coming no matter what the hell you do.   I have used taunt though to reduce a group of 3 to come in a 1 and 2 instead of all at once.  Maybe if you throw enough range increasers on it, you might have more luck with getting singles.

[HaemishM]

I'm not really concerned about always pulling 1 from 3 or whatever. I just wondered if it was useable as a pull tool, maybe to shift the location of the fight enough that I don't have to worry about runners or knockback adding aggro I don't need. I'll still probably hold off on getting challenge for a while.

[Rasix]

My tactic is to taunt and then run around a corner to avoid the ranged attacks then unleash hell when they get in view.

Works pretty well for indoor missions.

[Mesozoic]

Effective, if somewhat less heroic.

[cevik]

Effective, if somewhat less heroic.

Yeah, my Blaster's tatic is to open up with a Fireball, then use Fire Breath and then run into the middle of the group and fight them down the rest of the way with my fists.  That way my character can die in every episode of his comic and come back in the next one to finish the job.  

I always like the comics where the character dies and you're left thinking "ohhhh no, is this the end of batman?!!  Did robin manage to save him from that firey blast in the nick of time like he did the last 14 weeks in a row?  I guess I'll have to buy next months issue and find out!"

[MrHat]

I use that line of sight tactic all the time during indoor missions.

It's how I stay alive.

Line of Sight in this game is also why I'm so exciting about PvP

[ajax34i]

Since I didn't play in beta, I'm currently trying out all the classes.  And at the low levels I'm at, it's mostly solo.

So far, what I've noticed:

1.  Everything is limited by endurance.  HP pool goes up, END does not.  A lot of people I see around me in the game don't understand this.  You can get a feel for how many mobs will drain you, and thus are not doable.

2.  Controllers (my favorite).  It's unbelievable how much a long-duration stun power can improve your solo ability.  Stun, then brawl.  Slow but sure.  I'm soloing at level 11, I soloed all of the kill boss missions so far, and grouping with AoE blasters is very nice.  

3.  Blasters, there are actually different kinds.  Some are ranged AoE, some are single-target + control (they can knock-back or disable individual mobs that get into melee range).  A lot of people take every single damn power that comes at them, and it's not the way to do it.   And not enough blasters use the level 1 secondary immobilize power they get (ring of xxx, web grenade).  And a lot of them get excited by all the blasting and forget to stop for END, or take it slowly.

4.  Tankers.  Very end-dependent.  Very slow to start.  So what I've done is, since I didn't really need to tank for a group at low level, I kinda ignored my defense and took all the attacks possible.  Works nicely, but once my end is out, I have to turn off all attacks and stand there taking a bit of damage as my end regens enough for 2-3 attacks to finish off the mob.  

I don't chase runners.  They don't seem to aggro other mobs like in Everquest.  Let them go, go hit another group in the area; the runners will come back to their spot after a bit, and you can get them then.  When I jump into the middle of a big group, I almost count on a few to run so I don't have to deal with as many at a time.  If you kill the boss, some usually scatter.

5.  Defenders.  Haven't tried them yet, but it looks like this:  the whole set of primary powers doesn't help me one bit to level up solo, and that's usually the case till about 8-10.  So I'll prolly load up on the attack secondaries and ignore my primary pool for a while.  We'll see how it works.

6.  Haven't seriously tried scrappers.

As for rarity, there are lots of blasters, lots of scrappers, average controllers, a few tankers, and almost no defenders, yeah.  Probably has to do with how fun or how easy to start out it is.  Pickup groups are still your average nightmare that I'd rather not get involved with at low levels.

[geldonyetich]

[edit: Oh, now you've gone and put me in a Geldonyetich Spamming Mood (tm).   I did play beta, and apparently I felt obligated to tell you my own experience on the ways of the archetypes.]

Controllers require *scads* of patience to advance solo because of their lousy damage output.   Like ajax34i says, everything's soloable -- especially if you have Confuse which lets the mobs (and bosses!) kill eachother (for no experience to you) -- but the rate in which you take them down really encourages you group and group hard with a Controller.   The upside of the Controller is they are all about having options in combat - sort of the covex opposite of the Scrapper.

The Tanker is kinda boring, in my opinion, since at least at the start they have very few actual attacks and are very passive/defensive in their role.  However, the thing about Tankers is they're *extremely* good at taking damage.   A Tanker can take easily three times the punishment the next runner up, the Scrapper, can.    It's like comparing Superman to Wolverine.  Sure Wolverine can regenerate and hold his own in a fight, but Superman's going to be the one still standing when a 20 ton train engine is thrown at him.   This isn't in the powers, it's in the actual damage tables of the game.

Blasters rule - they have some reasonably good mob control for defense and the best offense in the game.  I'd have a Blaster, but a RL friend of mine is playing one.   Given a choice, I'd take Energy Blast because it's fun to play bowling for thugs.   Takes a bit of finesse to survive as a Blaster, but you've the tools to do it.   One of the main reasons Blasters are so popular is all you have to do is grab Hover and for the majority of the mobs you face you'll be able to stay out of the melee range which is the Blaster's only downside.

The last two that ajax34i hasn't tried yet are probably some of the more powerful soloers around.

Defenders, you may think, are restricted to group support roles.   Not so.  That primary power pool of theirs is loosely centered on the "buff/debuff" catagory and has a lot of monster control in there to keep them from overwhelming you.   What's more, you can *heal yourself* with half the primary power sets, which is a real staple to the effective soloer.   All you would be lacking is damage, and guess what the Defender's secondary power pool is all about?   I'd have to say that my favorite Defender would be a Kinetics/Psychic Blast defender.    Kinetics is good for everything from self-healing to snaring to travel powers to buffing your damage.   Psychic Blast, on the other hand, does massive damage and has mob control as a secondary effect.   Optionally, you can gear your Defender to be far more group supportive and reliant.  Very flexible archetype in the difference between one and another, Defenders.

Scrappers are pretty straightforward - even moreso than Tankers.   Primary powers hurt things.  Secondary powers keep you alive.   I am very satisfied with how powerful my Scrapper is because they are focused on the raw offensive and defensive needs of combat.   I am somewhat unsatsified with my Scrapper on the grounds that they are very unflexible: fighting is all they do - get over it.    If a fight looks bad, your only options in combat as a Scrapper is to either use inspirations (which is more options than EQ would give a Warrior, at least) or run (which as a Scrapper is a valuable tactic).   You might be able to introduce a little flexibility with Dark Melee/Dark Armor (which has a little flexibility in there) and power pool powers, but  for the most part as a Scrapper your only focuses are to do damage and manage the damage you're taking.   Excellent soloers, at least - I can't dive into a group of nine white con minions (or three yellow cons) and survive as a Controller, but I can with a Scrapper, and take them down extremely quickly.   Damage is second only to Blasters - some claim it can even exceeds theirs, but I suspect this is only in certain situations.

The really complicated thing about all this is that due to the power pool selections and actual selections from that pool, your milage may vary.  Even two Scrappers with the very same power sets can perform quite differently depending on which powers they chose.  (I've found out the hard way that taking Swipe, Spin and skipping Strike and Slash is a great way to gimp a Claw Scrapper.)  A unique part of City of Heroes is accepting that Balance Isn't.  Due to the extreme flexibility of the advancement system, not all superheroes are created equal.  There's no shame in that, as they are united in that they all have a common goal of saving Paragon City from the villians that assail it.

[ajax34i]

Yeah, learned a hard lesson today, always info the defender, never attack a mob expecting that the defender can heal.  Had an empathy/dark defender join the group, he was focused on blasting, and only had the AoE heal from the empathy pool.  Now, I thought, if you wanna be a blaster, be a blaster, don't get the gimped version that a defender gets, but to each his own.

The defender I created for myself is primarily healer (so empathy), and dark blast secondary gives some crowd control as well as decent damage.  Unfortunately there are so many powers I want asap that I can't take hover till 14 or so.

[geldonyetich]

Yep, never assume a Defender is neccessarily a healer.   Only Empathy is really good at healing.  Weather, Radiation Emission, and Kinetics have healing-capable powers, but first is somewhat weak and the later two are somewhat awkward to employ.    The remaining two power sets (Dark Miasma and Force Fields) do not heal *at all*.

[eldaec]

 The remaining two power sets (Dark Miasma and Force Fields) do not heal *at all*.

Dark can heal : they get a foe -acc  -dam, ally aoe heal. It's similar in arrangement to the kinetics foe -end, ally aoe heal.

But you are right to say that only empathy heroes are really 'healers'. And I seem to find more controllers take empathy than defenders atm.

[rattran]

I play a primarily healer defender (Captain Obvious) And have a hell of a time finding a group that  doesn't run around corners when they get damage
I've started to not chase the people who panic and run, maybe it'll train people to stand and take it.

And maybe I'll just have to keep finding new groups.

[ajax34i]

Eh, people will do weird things.

Was in a group the other day and one guy says "Ok how about that group of 10 reds over there?"  The group was like:  "No, let's find something else.  How about those yellows to the right."

So I'm watching the guy stand there, looking at the reds.  And he inches closer a bit, then starts powering up something.  I type "I guess he really wants the reds."  And by the time I typed "reds" he was dead, no one else had moved an inch to follow in his folly.

So we're like "Doh, he died too close, and no one can summon.  Ok group let's pull the reds away and empath will rez."  Said, and done, nicely, rez in, guy healed, guy moves out of range just as the mobs come back.

Then he turns around and attacks them again.  Alone.  Again.

We would have tried to rez him again, but he went to the hospital on his own initiative.

[Mesozoic]

Then he turns around and attacks them again.  Alone.  Again.

Hello and welcome to Expansion of the genre playerbase theatre.

[geldonyetich]

If you've a full group, go take on the reds.   In a good and powerful group of roughly equivilent level it's doable to take a group of 10 reds with purple bosses in CoH.

[Alrindel]

Sure - if your group knows what it's doing.  I don't seem to have the same good luck with pickup groups in CoH as others have reported - the ones I end up in are a little dim, or very inexperienced, or both.

[ClydeJr]

I play a primarily healer defender (Captain Obvious) And have a hell of a time finding a group that  doesn't run around corners when they get damage
I've started to not chase the people who panic and run, maybe it'll train people to stand and take it.

If I'm playing my tanker and I'm in a group with a healer, I'll never run. I expect the healer to keep me healed just like he should expect me to keep the biggest, baddest, ugliest enemy focused on me and not shooted weird crap at him.

Finally got to level 12 and can start getting DO enhancements. Holy crap, they make a big difference. I need to start slotting some more endurance reduction ones in so I'm not constantly running out of end.

[Alkiera]

Finally got to level 12 and can start getting DO enhancements. Holy crap, they make a big difference. I need to start slotting some more endurance reduction ones in so I'm not constantly running out of end.

Those will be the first DO's my tanker picks up...  endurance drain on his War Mace attacks is pretty crazy.  I've played both a blaster and a scrapper, and never recall having the endurance problems he has when solo.  Only when grouping.

My tanker uses Ice for defense, tho I'm kinda dubious on some of the powerset.  My Frozen Armor seems to do exactly Jack when fighting opponents my level or higher...  stuff lower than me, it's great, I'm nigh-unhittable, but stuff over me has no problem, I just lose endurance faster from having it up.  Seems kinda lame. (socketted with 1 end red. and 2 def buff enhs) Get way more milage from my PBAE chilling slow/snare aura, which would stack with Frozen armor if it was useful.

--
Alkiera

[Mr_PeaCH]

DOs at lvl 12?  How, where... do they 'drop' like regulars or must they be bought or both?

[cevik]

DOs at lvl 12?  How, where... do they 'drop' like regulars or must they be bought or both?

Buy them, the smallest DOs (15) go green at level 12 so you can start using them at that point.

[HaemishM]

DO's make a huge difference. I just slotted a damage DO into my crane kick at level 13. Against blues, I added at least 10 points of damage to that kick. I can only imagine the boosts I've gotten from accuracy DO's.

As for healing, we learned something doing the task force missions this weekend. If you don't have a healer in the group, don't expect to wade into the large groups of whatever and survive unscathed, especially if there are bosses in the group of mobs. We tried that with 2 blasters and 2 scarppers with 1 mutation controller... didn't work. We died a few times before we figured out how to whittle them down with hit and run attacks.

[WayAbvPar]

DO's make a huge difference. I just slotted a damage DO into my crane kick at level 13. Against blues, I added at least 10 points of damage to that kick. I can only imagine the boosts I've gotten from accuracy DO's.

As for healing, we learned something doing the task force missions this weekend. If you don't have a healer in the group, don't expect to wade into the large groups of whatever and survive unscathed, especially if there are bosses in the group of mobs. We tried that with 2 blasters and 2 scarppers with 1 mutation controller... didn't work. We died a few times before we figured out how to whittle them down with hit and run attacks.

Large emphasis on RUN. I think I will need to replace my F6 key before the next TF run =)

Where does one acquire DO enhancements? I get the feeling that there is a store for each background, but I must have missed out on the info somewhere along the line ( I have a nasty tendency to click through the screens too quickly just to get to the assbeating...I STILL have no idea what the Dr. and Lt. near the deactivated bots say- it looks like some sort of rundown on cons).

[HaemishM]

I know of two DO shops. One is "Image Inc." in Steel Canyon/Gimry Ridge. It's near the Perez Park entrance. If you see a contact named Hugo Redding, the store is the next block over. You can see the Image, Inc. sign. That store is for natural and magic I think (or natural and tech). It also sells level 15-20 training enhancements as well and will buy any enhancements just like a trainer.

The magic/mutation store is somewhere in Steel Canyon. It's called Subgene or something like that. I think it's in the Copper District. Great big green sign.

[Daydreamer]

There seem to be franchises of stores, each chain speicalizing in one enhancement type, across the game with enhancement levels depending on the zone.

The chain I use is Orion, which sells science based enhancements.  That I know of, they have one outlet in Skyway between Perez and Atlas, and one in Steel Canyon on the border between the main Square and the Ridge subzone to the NE.

If you look at the map that came with the game, they marked all stores with small red, but unlabeled squares.

[Furiously]

I understand there is also a store somewhere you have to mission to unlock?

[schild]

There are a handful of stores with neat unique missions. If there was one game where the strategy guide was worth having, it's this one.

[Aslan]

Stores can give missions?  Argh, enlighten us.

[schild]

They aren't stores per se. They are single merchants who need you to prove their worth. It seems as though they are very special, very hard missions. When the first person hits level 35 I'll tell you. Until then, meh.

[Aslan]

Yeah, well, expect a call around December, then, bitch.  *sigh*