Dammit, I hate DC. (Infinite Crisis Spoilers)

[Kitsune]

As title said, spoiler warning.

Okay, let's get right to it.  This is plain fucking stupid.

#1 - OMG YOU ERASED THEIR MEMORY, UR EVUL!

Yes, Zatanna mindwiped villains to clear secret identity info from their noggins.  The other heroes are just horrified.  Well, what the hell else was she supposed to do?  Let crazy psychopath go, knowing which family members to murder?  Kill them?  Lock them in solitary confinement for the rest of their lives?  Fucking with their minds was the gentlest way to handle that sort of situation while keeping that vital information out of the hands of murderers.

#2 - OMG YOU SAVED THE WORLD, UR EVUL!

Yes, Wonder Woman totally killed some asshole.  The other heroes are again horrified.  Okay, let's run through the math again.  Asshole has Superman under complete mental control.  Fighting Superman to keep him subdued will likely result in the deaths of thousands of innocents as cities get smashed up.  Asshole tells Wonder Woman, with the truth-compelling lasso on him, that the way to free Superman is to kill him, which Wonder Woman promptly does.  And yet, because she 'broke the code' by killing this man, evidently she is going to be shunned by the entire world in upcoming issues.  Apparently the correct thing to do was leave him alive so he could keep puppeting Superman into killing people, that would've been great.

#3 - Who invited Hawkman?

In the comics leading to the Infinite Crisis books, Blue Beetle was treated like absolute shit by the Justice League.  He was apparently just not cool enough to hang with them.  Only Wonder Woman actually seemed to give a damn about him, and Batman, even knowing that he was telling the truth about a conspiracy and was in some danger, let Beetle keep going without any warning that may have saved his life.

Meanwhile, Hawkman is a raving lunatic who attacks the other JLA members at the slightest provocation.  In the last few comics I've read, he's assaulted no less than three other heroes.  How the hell does this asshole get to stay in the club while Blue Beetle didn't?

[Velorath]

As title said, spoiler warning.

Okay, let's get right to it.  This is plain fucking stupid.

#1 - OMG YOU ERASED THEIR MEMORY, UR EVUL!

Yes, Zatanna mindwiped villains to clear secret identity info from their noggins.  The other heroes are just horrified.  Well, what the hell else was she supposed to do?  Let crazy psychopath go, knowing which family members to murder?  Kill them?  Lock them in solitary confinement for the rest of their lives?  Fucking with their minds was the gentlest way to handle that sort of situation while keeping that vital information out of the hands of murderers.

I don't think it was so much the fact that they erased memories as it was the fact that they started screwing with the personalities of the villains.

#3 - Who invited Hawkman?

In the comics leading to the Infinite Crisis books, Blue Beetle was treated like absolute shit by the Justice League.  He was apparently just not cool enough to hang with them.  Only Wonder Woman actually seemed to give a damn about him, and Batman, even knowing that he was telling the truth about a conspiracy and was in some danger, let Beetle keep going without any warning that may have saved his life.

Meanwhile, Hawkman is a raving lunatic who attacks the other JLA members at the slightest provocation.  In the last few comics I've read, he's assaulted no less than three other heroes.  How the hell does this asshole get to stay in the club while Blue Beetle didn't?

Really Hawkman is more a member of the JSA than the JLA currently.  He's not really in the club right now, he's just there since pretty much all the still living characters involved in the mindwipe are in the current story, but as Batman's shown, that doesn't really mean he's tolerated by everyone.

[HaemishM]

Wonder Woman crossed the line. And so did Batman, with the whole watchdog satellites. Superman is apparently going to do something equally distancing soon. The thing is, I think all of their behaviour is pretty consistent with their base characters. Wonder Woman is a warrior, of course she would kill if absolutely no other choice presented itself. Batman is the ultimate paranoid, and probably created the Brother satellites with some subconscious idea of what the other heroes had done to his mind. And as Vel said, it wasn't just that the mindwiped certain information from the villains, they actually altered personalities, removing free will from the villains. If that isn't a clear violation of the heroic ethic, I don't know what is. It's completely against what America should stand for, and thus doing it as the Justice League of America is double plus bad.

Hawkman is a pretty polarizing kind of guy. He got kicked out of the leadership position he had in the JSA. He's being portrayed as the ultimate right wing asshole, with Green Arrow being the ultimate left wing asshole.

[Velorath]

Wonder Woman crossed the line. And so did Batman, with the whole watchdog satellites. Superman is apparently going to do something equally distancing soon. The thing is, I think all of their behaviour is pretty consistent with their base characters. Wonder Woman is a warrior, of course she would kill if absolutely no other choice presented itself. Batman is the ultimate paranoid, and probably created the Brother satellites with some subconscious idea of what the other heroes had done to his mind. And as Vel said, it wasn't just that the mindwiped certain information from the villains, they actually altered personalities, removing free will from the villains. If that isn't a clear violation of the heroic ethic, I don't know what is. It's completely against what America should stand for, and thus doing it as the Justice League of America is double plus bad.

Hawkman is a pretty polarizing kind of guy. He got kicked out of the leadership position he had in the JSA. He's being portrayed as the ultimate right wing asshole, with Green Arrow being the ultimate left wing asshole.

Yeah, to expand on all that a bit, one of the main aspects of this event is that most of the heroes have fucked up somewhere, and while most of the villains are pulling together, the heroes for once are the ones who don't trust each other, can't work well together, and stab each other in the back.  You've got Hal Jordan hitting Batman, Batman hitting Hawkman, a mind-controled Superman beating on Batman and Wonder Woman, a mind-controled Superboy beat up the Titans, Indigo attacking the Outsiders.  I'm sure some other shit's happened in Rann-Thanagar, but I've pretty much given up trying to read that one.

As for Wonder Woman, I'm not going to say that what she did was "wrong", but it was playing right into what Max wanted her to do.

[HaemishM]

Rann-Thanagar has just been a lot of scattered shit that doesn't seem to be going anywhere except removing the existence of the Zeta Beam (after establishing it as the most powerful weapon in the universe). However, in conjunction with the newly discovered Sun Eater (you know, the thing from Final Night that killed Parallax/Hal Jordan) from the awful Donna Troy Returns (AGAIN) series, I'm betting on part of the Crisis being some motherfuckers getting their hands on both a Sun Eater AND the Zeta Beam.

[HaemishM]

Just read Infinite Crisis #1. I must say, I don't know where the fuck they are going, but it's a much more interesting place than House of M. SPOILERS:

The 4 people left to live in the bubble universe outside of the universe from Crisis on Infinite Earths return. Wow. Though I kind of figured out who they were from the get go, it's still a cool nod to the past, as well as a possible clue as to what the fuck is going on. It's a shame that they seem to have killed off most of the Freedom Fighters in this issue. I still need to read the end of the crappy Donna Troy series. The end of Villains United, whereby a duplicate Lex Luthor is revealed to be the Mockingbird behind the Secret Six was a nice twist.

[Velorath]

Just read Infinite Crisis #1. I must say, I don't know where the fuck they are going, but it's a much more interesting place than House of M. SPOILERS:

The 4 people left to live in the bubble universe outside of the universe from Crisis on Infinite Earths return. Wow. Though I kind of figured out who they were from the get go, it's still a cool nod to the past, as well as a possible clue as to what the fuck is going on. It's a shame that they seem to have killed off most of the Freedom Fighters in this issue. I still need to read the end of the crappy Donna Troy series. The end of Villains United, whereby a duplicate Lex Luthor is revealed to be the Mockingbird behind the Secret Six was a nice twist.

You been reading JLA also?  Half the League can't stand being around each other now.  The have been some glitches as far as what order everything takes place in, but like you said they're doing much better shit than House of M.

[HaemishM]

Yeah, I've read JLA through #119, which was really the Big 3 prelude to IC #1. I don't necessarily agree with everything they are doing, but the writing is good with very few exceptions, so I'm interested.

[Velorath]

Yeah, I've read JLA through #119, which was really the Big 3 prelude to IC #1. I don't necessarily agree with everything they are doing, but the writing is good with very few exceptions, so I'm interested.

JLA #120 is out and I'll just say that the fate of Martian Manhunter is pretty vague.  I wasn't much of a DC fan growing up so I don't have much of an emotional investment in these characters but at least they aren't making backwards progress like Marvel.

[HaemishM]

J'onn Jonzz isn't dead. I read #120 as well. It's already been shown that Jonzz is immortal or long-lived. That's a good mystery brewing, and I look forward to another "Detroit-era" type league being put together of second-stringers.

[Velorath]

Read issue #2 recently and one of the best things I can say about Infinite Crisis (aside from the Rann-Thanagar mini), was that for someone who was never a big DC fan, the writers manage to get into a lot of the backstory while also squeezing a lot of plot and characterization in.  I'm not so sure about making characters like Power Girl (who I do like thanks to her use in JSA) and Donna Troy major focuses of this event though.

Plenty to like about this issue though.  We've got Animal Man, more with Earth-2 Supes and what his goal is, Luthor looking like he's going to stab Black Adam in the back, Booster Gold going for the Blue Beetle Scarab, Joker's pissed for not being invited into the Society, and another conversation between Batman and Brother Eye.

JLA this month though looses a lot of momentum thanks in no small part to focusing too much on Dawn when whatever is going on with Flash seems more interesting.  Also I can only hope we've seen the last book whose script is padded out with "and then OMACs attack the characters for 10 pages."

Seriously, we get the picture.  There's still a lot of them.  And they like to pop up and attack superheroes.

[Velorath]

Issue 3 was pretty good, especially the Batman/Earth-2 Superman scenes.  Dan Didio provided a lot of hints about 52 this week also.

Dan DiDio: 52 will start one week after the end of Infinite Crisis and the story will run in real time over the next 52 weeks. There will be six (possibly more) independent stories (that will occasionally crossover) that will touch upon nearly every aspect of the new DCU following Crisis. Every character from every series will be seen during the course of the story. As an added bonus nearly every issue will feature a back up story starting with the 10 part serialized “History Of The DC Universe”. Probably most important, every step is being taken to insure that every issue ships on time to keep the weekly schedule.

NRAMA: Okay, the series’ main cast has now been revealed. In “Lightning Round” fashion, we’re going to throw out a name and give us a quick response about their role in 52 and/or their future……

The Question?


DD: Sets up shop in Gotham filling a major void.

NRAMA: Elongated Man?


DD: Rethinking his place in the DC universe

NRAMA: Booster Gold?


DD: Learns the true meaning of commercialism.

NRAMA: Black Adam?


DD: Finds a place he can call home.

NRAMA: Renee Montoya?


DD: Deals with more questions than answers,

NRAMA: Steel (John Henry Irons)?


DD: Sets out to prove the true mettle of a man.

NRAMA: Okay, let’s keep it going with a few more 52-centric bullet points…

A new female crimefighter in Gotham (Batwoman perhaps?)

DD: Any crimefighter will be welcomed in this hero-challenged city.

NRAMA: A new cosmic villain to rival Darkseid?

DD: There are certain things that come from the edge of the universe that even Darkseid might fear.

NRAMA: A mystery figure kidnapping some of the most pre-eminent scientists (and mad scientists) in the DCU?

DD: Nothing to worry about, I’m sure it’s for the betterment of mankind.

NRAMA: A new Freedom Fighters?

DD: Hopefully they meet a better fate than the last team.

NRAMA: A “powerless” superhero getting new meta-human abilities?

DD: Earth’s meta-forces have been depleted, its time for new heroes to rise.

NRAMA: A romance and perhaps even wedding between two major DC heroes? And is this related to two former JLA’ers getting “intimate” in 2006?

DD: Actually, I think its two members of the bridal party.

NRAMA: A new Red Tornado?

DD: Ma Hunkle is a tough act to follow

NRAMA: Lex Luthor does something nasty on Monster Island?

DD: I believe it involves latex and linseed oil.

NRAMA: An established character with his or her own history will make their first appearance in the DCU?

DD: Sounds right to me.

NRAMA: A gay character debuts in 52, then moves to their own ongoing series?

DD: With a couple of other stops in between.

NRAMA: A new hero called Supernova? Someone we already know?

DD: Scour you old comics for clues.

NRAMA: One of your biggest heroic icons spends the year as a civilian?

DD: Finally some down time, last year was pretty hectic.

[HaemishM]

So Batman gives it up? That's what it sounds like.

IC #3 was pretty good. I'm not sure if I am down with the shift from good guy to not so good guy in the Supes and Alex Luthor, but I'm certainly more interested than I have been in anything Marvel has done lately.

[Velorath]

So Batman gives it up? That's what it sounds like.

Well 52 is explaining some of what happened in the time time between IC and One Year Later so he could just be giving it up for a little while.  I have a hard time seeing a permanant change in any character that has an alter ego that's known by even non-comic fans.

[Ironwood]

Did I see the UK version of Spy Kids or something ?

Awful.  Even for kids.

Sorry, I have my Christmas Cold and I just want the rest of the world to FUCKING DIE.  It just came on me yesterday and I feel fucking lousy.

[HaemishM]

Just read Infinite Crisis #4. Holy fuck.

This is how a goddamn universe-changing event mini-series is supposed to play out. People's heads getting punched off and rolling around on the ground, gigantic energy hands ripping holes in the fabric of space and time. Despite what they have done to two characters I'd never have picked to be villains, I like this series.

[Velorath]

It's amazing how much plot is packed into an issue of Infinite Crisis compared to an issue of House of M.  I hope Quesada and Bendis read this stuff and cry themselves to sleep at night.

[Llava]

So, for those of us who won't buy it for one reason or another but still want to know, please spoil the living crap out of it.

[Velorath]

There's too much to spoil and you really just need to see it.  I hate to be like that but the overall feel of the book, the art, and the character moments, are really more important than the spoilers.  Every page of this issue alone has at least one great moment on it.

[HaemishM]

So, for those of us who won't buy it for one reason or another but still want to know, please spoil the living crap out of it.

Newsarama does a pretty good job of spoiling/explaining a lot of it.

Here

Here

And Here

[Margalis]

It sounds like an amalgamation of everything I hate in DC. A bunch of different Superboys, a bunch of different Flashes, a bunch of different Earths...retarded.

[HaemishM]

If that's your problem with it, yeah you probably won't like it. But it's a shame, because it really is a pretty damn good story. It's also a fucking huge, continuity-laden story and I can imagine someone with less old skool DC Comics hero knowledge might find it way too cluttered.

But I'm enjoying the shit out of it. Seeing Superboy punch someone's head off... I would have never thought to see that in a DCU story in a million years.

[Velorath]

If that's your problem with it, yeah you probably won't like it. But it's a shame, because it really is a pretty damn good story. It's also a fucking huge, continuity-laden story and I can imagine someone with less old skool DC Comics hero knowledge might find it way too cluttered.

But I'm enjoying the shit out of it. Seeing Superboy punch someone's head off... I would have never thought to see that in a DCU story in a million years.

I've never been a huge fan of DC.  I've read scattered issues here and there but I've never really followed any DC titles (until recently with JSA).  This story is continuity-laden, but I think they do a good job of letting the readers know everything they need to in order to understand the story.  The Rann-Thanagar mini was the only part so far where I just had way too much trouble understanding who everyone was and who was on what side, but it didn't hurt the overall Infinite Crisis story so it wasn't any big deal.

[Velorath]

Just read through issue 5.  Nothing as spectacular as the Superboy fight last issue, this looks like mostly getting everyone into place for the last couple issues.  Batman and Booster Gold get the team together to take out Brother Eye, Earth 2 Superman goes to confront Alex, and Superboy and Nightwing are teaming up to do something.  There is some good stuff in here though and the art continues to impress.

[HaemishM]

It's not spectacular in that sense, but it is good writing. Superman fights Superman. It felt a bit skimpy, and I am now jonesing for next issue already. Again, THAT'S how you write a good universe-changing event.

[Velorath]

Teen Titans #33 expands on the Superboy/Nightwing stuff.  Not really much advancement in the plot, but it's a decent little story with some good character moments.

[Velorath]

We're back to a lot of action with issue #6.  It almost seems like overkill to have two big Superboy fights within the space of a couple issues, but it's hard to argue with the results.  Couple big deaths in this one.  Psycho Pirate pretty much had that coming for a while.  The other character isn't one that I was a big fan of but had kind of grown on me recently.

Some good lines thrown in there too:

Green Arrow: "Why the Hell'd you call a guy who can shoot trick arrows?"
Batman:  "Just to see if you'd show."

Cassie:  "Should we free Black Adam?"
Conner:  "Are you kidding?  Hell yeah."

Good stuff.

[HaemishM]

Just read it. Fucking awesome. Again, that's how you do big, world-shattering events. I haven't anticipated the next issue of a series like this in quite a while.

Bendis should read this, then pull a Rimbaud.

[Velorath]

Just to bring up the special issues for the minis (OMAC, Villains United, etc...) for a sec here, I'd have to say last weeks Villains United special was the best and one of the only ones worth reading.  OMAC was pretty forgettable unless you happen to be a fan of Sasha, Rann-Thanagar was only notable for the death of Jade, and Day of Vengeance was decent although it probably should have just been called issue 7 since it's the only one of the Specials that actually completes the storyline of the mini.

The Villains United special though was a fun book with the central premise of the Society staging prison breaks in just about every prison on Earth, and then marching all the freed villains into Metropolis.  The Secret Six have a bit part, trying to decide whether their group will act as heroes or villains in the future (in the end more or less deciding to work as mercs more or less).  We've got Oracle and Martian Manhunter trying to organize whatever heroes aren't occupied at the moment (Green Arrow, some of the JSA and Shadowpact, and various minor and retired heroes) to stop the prisons breaks.  There's also a good but brief fight between Black Adam and that super-powered Nazi.

If there's one problem with this issue though, it's that the addition of Doomsday possibly ups the ante too much.  In one of the final pages alone we see Doomsday, Bane, Solomon Grundy, Sinestro, Dr. Psycho, and Deathstroke.  After all the carnage we've seen so far, I'd expect to see quite a few casualties with this lineup of villains.  If Doomsday is written anywhere near as much of a threat as he's been built up as in the past, he should be able to get a few kills by himself.

[HaemishM]

The VU special certainly cranks up the anticipation for the big, ass-kicking fights of the last issue of Infinite Crisis. The OMAC special I don't even remember, and I don't think I've read the Rann-Thanager special yet. If I have, I've already forgotten it, other than the death of Jade (which I thought was in IC, but maybe that's why I can't remember the special).

The Battle for Bludhaven special mini has been awful, though. Just flat, uninteresting and totally confusing.

[Velorath]

Well, that was a hell of a ride.

[HaemishM]

Yeah.

A good ending, though I'm still trying to figure out what's going on with some characters. That big montage at the end shows some inconsistencies with the OYL stuff that has already come out.

[Velorath]

Yeah.

A good ending, though I'm still trying to figure out what's going on with some characters. That big montage at the end shows some inconsistencies with the OYL stuff that has already come out.

It mostly looked like it was just teaser art for the OYL stuff and 52.