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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Archived: We distort. We decide.  |  Topic: Interview with Darkfall's Lead Designer - Claus Grovdal 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Interview with Darkfall's Lead Designer - Claus Grovdal  (Read 22944 times)
CRIMSON
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Reply #70 on: May 06, 2004, 12:39:13 AM

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This is the most disappointing thing of all. I came here to clarify some questions people had about Darkfall. I came here to try and be as helpful as I can and discuss game design concepts whether they were in Darkfall or not. Instead, I'm labeled as a fanboi and my opinions are dismissed mostly on that basis. Finally, Darkfall is dismissed without even discussing the game design ideas the developers have.


Well it seemed to me that your opinions were not dismissed because of people's perspective of you being a fanboi but rather because of a lack of information. And I don't mean that as an insult by any means, there simply is no real information released from developers concerning certain aspects of game play. As a result people are very sceptical, and with good reason. To date there havn't exactly been a lot of good pvp freindly MMORPGs and next to nothing in the way of city vs city. This game's siege system does bear a striking resemblence to SB's siege system..

Mostly what I read at first was people saying "I'll wait to see what happens" only they used the word fuck in there somewhere..  It isn't like that's a bad responce to a game who's developers give next to no info on a rather vital aspect of gameplay.
Preston
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Reply #71 on: May 06, 2004, 12:53:41 AM

Quote from: Roac


Yeah, the proposal is great for the defender.  It sucks ass for the attacker - I get the point.  Holy fuck, that's seriously lame.  C'mon guys, hurry up and wait - for (you hope) 6 hours or more.  Customers want entertainment, not a job.  It isn't so much that people don't want to work at success, but they don't want it to be "work".


I don't think there will be much of a hurry up and wait thing like we saw in Shadowbane just because the gloomer and siege fort are "always" vulnerable.  That fact alone should make combat fairly constant.  The delay, I think, will only take the length of time the defenders need to rally a decent fighting force.  

The timing thing is really tough to get specific on because this is an absolute must to see how it really works.  Specific timing is something I think needs to get worked out in beta.  I still think a super long siege is a good way to go though and I don't think attackers will be doing much waiting because it is in the best interest of the defenders to kill that siege fort or gloomer as soon as possible.

Quote from: Roac

And yeah, that's another difficulty.  If there is no game mechanic to try and break down uber empires, there is a real chance that uber empires will form.  The only characteristic preventing uberguilds is the individualistic streak of most gamers.  The force typically pushing guilds to coalesce is economy of scale.  If you can get a Mafia like group to come together, you have multiple advantages; being able to bring more people onto the field (and while it may not increase the percent who remain despite boredom, it increases the total number who do), and being able to intimidate your opponent through sheer force.  If a group feels a conflict is a total lost cause, some on the side of the loosers simply won't show up - even if there is no game penalty for being on the field.  People don't like to lose.  


So what is your solution?  The thing I like about Darkfall is that any kind of huge alliance build-up has to contend with the persistent racial enemy.

For example, you build up an uber alliance among the Human race(pissing people off in the process of course) and you've pretty much consolidated the provinces in your own racial territory and then you start going after the Ork territory.  Well, shit, they are getting pissed, so instead of just raiding the human territory, out of the threat of self-preservation, they unify and start attacking this uber Human alliance.   Maybe they bring the Mahirim along and maybe the Orks can convince the Alfar to attack too because the Humans are getting too strong.  At any rate, all those Human clans that had to get stepped on are still playing the game because they've either managed to hold onto a dungeon clanstone that doesn't require operating a city, or they've been making do just operating out of the Human capital.  The stepped-on human clans see the uber alliance weakening in this huge racial war and make their move.  

That's a long drawn-out example of how I think things could work to counter-balance the zerg and keep things interesting.  In Shadowbane once a guild got their city taken away they were crushed with no where to go.  They couldn't even operate out of an NPC city and got taxed to death in some foreign guild they were forced to sub to.  

Quote from: Roac

Ok, so we're back to where you're sitting on nothing but hype.  If their current design is genius, it doesn't need improvement.  If there is real cause to think improvement is needed, it isn't genius.  You may want to take a logic class as well.


Argh, I said genius, not perfect.  I don't care what game designs are in place real live humans are tricky sonofabitches and will always find some loophole to exploit.  There isn't a game designer (or player) alive who can predict all the different strategies and tactics players will use in a game until they are actually playing.  I am a strong believer that every MMORPG needs to be continually tweaked and adjusted in game design to keep up with players.

Kingdom of Eleador
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Romp
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Reply #72 on: May 06, 2004, 01:58:12 AM

Quote from: CRIMSON

but if cities have a place, why destroy them?

In pvp, if you kill someone and they drop some Uber weapon, are you gona just go drop it in a lake? or are you going to use it?

Now if taking a city is a major endevour, why would someone trash it?

And if someone wouldn't destroy a city, why impose limits on destroying buildings? Ok I can understand some limits. It isn't all that realistic, even in a game for buildings to just *poof* vanish. Maybe it should take some time to tear em down. But the way Claus made it sound was as though it was an artificial imposition, not centered in a sence of realism but rather to prevent people from burning towns down in raids. So why do you need such a system unless there is a reason to burn a city down? Or more specificly, a reason not to keep a city?


well I'm guessing the more cities you have the more resources you will get and thus the more powerful you will be.  You dont necessarily need geographically isolated resources, I think it would be a bit unfair if your city had absolutely NO access to a valuable mineral or to wood etc but certainly some cities should have better access to certain resources than others, both to encourage conquest and trade.  So near your city you may have a great forest but a really poor copper mine.  So you attack city B next to a mountain which has great access to minerals.

On the other hand it may be the case that even though you managed to conquer city B, you know that in the long run, you cant defend both it and your own city, so in that case you destroy it so your enemies cant reclaim it and then leave.  But you will still need to defend it for a while until you have time to destroy it all, thus your enemies have the chance to retake it or even to strike at your main town.
Romp
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Reply #73 on: May 06, 2004, 02:20:10 AM

First of all, I've been following DF since about 2001 I think, pretty much just after it was announced.

Preston I think the point people are making here is that:

1) a lot of important things about DF design are still in the dark and no matter how much you argue about it, we just dont know if they have answered many of the objections people are raising

and

2) many games fall down at the implementation stage not at the design stage.  This was largely the case with Shadowbane and the fact is no matter how good a design you have, if you fuck up the implementation you can end up with a really shit game.

In light of these 2 facts, no good comes out of religiously declaring how uber a game is going to be which isnt even in open beta.  The most you can say about DF is that atm it is looking like its going to be good and they have a really good but incomplete design.  You cant really make any statements at all about how good the game is going to be.
Claus
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Reply #74 on: May 06, 2004, 05:42:15 AM

Quote
The real question might be...is Claus going to stick around the forums? Or is this strictly a promotional Q&A visit?


It's not in my job description to promote Darkfall.

I was a Waterthread.org reader for a long time, and now I am an F13.net reader. I enjoy the updates and the forums.

Claus Grovdal
Lead Designer/Producer
Darkfall
Soukyan
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Reply #75 on: May 06, 2004, 07:51:55 AM

I have a question for Claus or another DF dev, if it's possible to answer this at this time. How does the Darkfall gameplay scale for the casual gamer, like myself? In other words, can I log in for just 30 minutes and have a full gameplay experience, or is anything less than 2 hours going to be useless? Will I be able to participate in seiges effectively if I can only devote an hour of time to one? Also, what is the combat model like? For instance, is it auto-attack with styles, auto-attack with no styles, etc. How are spells and skills handled? Are they on recycle timers or do they all have different speeds (or rather delays) at which they function? If they are delay based, can that delay be affected by equipment to make spells and skills faster? If so, is there a cap to how fast those can be used? What is that cap? How is crowd control being addressed in the game? If it is in the game, is there a preventative measure for spamming crowd control? For example, if I am stunned for 30 seconds, can I be stunned again immediately after the first wears off? (Note: This was a huge problem for DAoC until they implemented an immunity timer, but CC is still a huge issue in RvR to this day). Do players drop loot and money when you kill them in PvP? How is travel handled in the world? Is there a dependence on one or a few classes for long distance travel? Will it take me more than 10 minutes at any one time to find combat in the world? How are character hit points scaled? Do characters get enough hit points to allow combat to last for a good amount of time, or will two shotting be commonplace?

Just some questions that I was wondering about. Thanks!

"Life is no cabaret... we're inviting you anyway." ~Amanda Palmer
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Dark_MadMax
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Reply #76 on: May 06, 2004, 08:18:19 AM

Quote from: Romp

2) many games fall down at the implementation stage not at the design stage.  This was largely the case with Shadowbane and the fact is no matter how good a design you have, if you fuck up the implementation you can end up with a really shit game.


 SB was fucked up from design stage - horrid technical implementation just overshadowed complete lack of consistent vision by WP.

Quote

 The most you can say about DF is that atm it is looking like its going to be good and they have a really good but incomplete design.  


 There is no such things such as "good incomplete design". -Either design is complete either its bullshit .  Design should adress all major  issues from the very beginning and define  all crucial game aspects ,fun factors , balancing mechanisms  ,even UI.  When you have WP like approach - this we will add later, this issue we consider to player to cope with , this one will take too much time to code ,etc.etc. In the end you end  with a complete wreck.
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Reply #77 on: May 06, 2004, 09:05:53 AM

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I don't think there will be much of a hurry up and wait thing like we saw in Shadowbane just because the gloomer and siege fort are "always" vulnerable. That fact alone should make combat fairly constant.


The defenders will not be consistant with their defense - history shows this.  If there is less immediate need, then there will be even less consistancy.  They will, instead, most often wait until they feel they have enough force to throw back the attackers, or at least give it a valient effort.  If they feel victory is not an even chance away, they won't sally forth.  And no, this isn't a "SB thing" - you see the same type of behavior in games like Starcraft.  The delay can be as long as several hours, as people agree to eat dinner or whatever, and return at an agreed upon time.

Quote
So what is your solution? The thing I like about Darkfall is that any kind of huge alliance build-up has to contend with the persistent racial enemy.

For example, you build up an uber alliance among the Human race(pissing people off in the process of course) and you've pretty much consolidated the provinces in your own racial territory and then you start going after the Ork territory. Well, shit, they are getting pissed, so instead of just raiding the human territory, out of the threat of self-preservation, they unify and start attacking this uber Human alliance. Maybe they bring the Mahirim along and maybe the Orks can convince the Alfar to attack too because the Humans are getting too strong.


Sounds like the defenders are the uber-alliance, not the aggressors.  What if the primary Alfar guild, and the primary Human guild decide to ally, OOC-ly?  They organize and control the majority of their racial territory, ally up, and decide to divide the world between them (think Axis).  We'll assume for this argument that Human and Alfar are by far the most populous races, and it isn't an off-base assumtion since uberguild leaders tend to pick reasonably popular races (if you run an understaffed faction, you're not an uberfaction...).  The NPCs in each kingdom don't like the opposing side... but who gives a rip?  They get to split up the game territory.  It's happened before.  It's not guaranteed to occur, but it can occur with reasonable probability, and there's nothing in the design (that we know of) to try to prevent it.

-Roac
King of Ravens

"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
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Reply #78 on: May 06, 2004, 09:29:00 AM

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2) many games fall down at the implementation stage not at the design stage. This was largely the case with Shadowbane and the fact is no matter how good a design you have, if you fuck up the implementation you can end up with a really shit game.


I disagree.  Shadowbane met its design requirements for the most part (sieges were laggy, there were bugs, but really the game was pretty much what they said the design was).  This is why my first set of posts on the SB boards 3 years ago were of the flavor "if you don't handle x, you're going to have problems."  Two of my main sticking points were uberguilds and griefing errants.  At that stage in beta (beta 2, when there were only ~100 people testing), the design did not address them.  By release, both of them were problems.  Another sticking point was player-level accountability.  That turned out to be a problem, too (but less of one, since most of the playerbase had a pseudo-hardcore mentality).  Talk to Ash if you want - one of the current DF mods.  Was in a SB guild with him at the time, and had access to where I regularly posted my "I told you so-s" on our private board.

Course, the problems SB had wasn't enough to drive me away.  I enjoy the game despite the problems (of which, the above have been mostly beaten back), although I'd have enjoyed it more had the problems not existed.  But that's the difference between buying into the marketing, and analyzing the design.  I saw a lot of people "wash out" from the game because they bought the marketing line, and when they realized that what they imagined wasn't what the game really was, they were let down.  So much so they left in an angry puff.

-Roac
King of Ravens

"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
Alluvian
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Reply #79 on: May 06, 2004, 09:51:39 AM

Most people here walked away because the game fucking didn't work.  It would crash like a junkie anytime there was a siege.  My wife was in two sieges and crashed out or lost connection about 20 times between the two.

Then they had their login issues that never fucking went away for her.  She spent two whole months trying every day to get in and got in TWICE durning TWO MONTHS.  Both those times she was on for less than a few hours before crashing and not being able to log back in.  This was after OS and game reinstall and all that shit.  Gave the game to a friend, and they have not had much better luck.  Even for free (my wife initially signed up for a year) our friend would not play it because they said "It is just too buggy".

Stories surfacing on this board are not that different.  Unplayable lag and constant crashes.

My days of second chances in mmogs are so fucking over.  Get it right or go bankrupt you pig fuckers.
Roac
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Reply #80 on: May 06, 2004, 10:33:48 AM

Honestly never had near the degree of problems with the client that some people have reported.  EXE errors happened early on, but were rare.  Siege lag was bad, but expected (from a tech pov, increasing players in a confined area increases lag exponentially).  The only serious problem I have had was when all my powers were reset due to some wierd bug, early on (about 2-3 months in), but a CCR fixed me about a week later (which is too long, imo, but they were getting hammered early on).

For those who were having those problems, can't really blame them for bailing.  Not talking about them though - that group of customers weren't stupid.  It's the ones who didn't stop to think for a few about hype that I'm mocking.

Sidenote: it isn't that I'm saying advertising is evil.  I'm saying the people who buy way, way too much into ads are stupid.  Most people look at an ad and decide to check the product out (or not).  It's the few that see and ad and really think that if they drink beer product X they'll attract supermodels, and then go around and tell their friends they've found the secret to dating.  It's when people take a MMOG to be their new religion, and the marketing bylines as their new Bible, that we've got a problem.  Fanbois are just the Mormons of gaming.

-Roac
King of Ravens

"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
daveNYC
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Reply #81 on: May 06, 2004, 10:38:27 AM

Mormons are nicer, although fanbois won't try and convert you after you're dead.

And any online game that can't get its login server to work needs to be taken out back and shot.  It's like any other piece of software being shipped with a broken installer.
HaemishM
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Reply #82 on: May 06, 2004, 10:59:24 AM

Quote from: Preston
Finally, Darkfall is dismissed without even discussing the game design ideas the developers have.  


Darkfall hasn't been dismissed. It's just been said that nothing talked about right now is material because:

a) What little the developers have said about the siege system is not enough to really make any conclusions about whether the gameplay will suck, not suck, be fun, not fun, or solve any of the previous generation of siege MMOG's problems
b) What little design has been mentioned is not actually in a working stage right now. We can't see it or play it, and only a select few have even seen if the game's engine can handle 3 people onscreen at once, much less the hundreds needed for good sieging. CART BEFORE THE HORSE.

You are considered a fanbois because you have taken tiny crumbs of design, mixed with a liberal bit of "we are addressing those problems, but I don't want to get into specifics" marketing speak, and made a perfect game out of it in your head.

Look, I like Claus. He's the only Razorwax dev I've met, but I like him. I wish his game well, not the least of which because it's a PVP warfare MMOG. But, Claus hasn't proven anything to me other than that he's a nice guy. He hasn't proven he can craft a workable design for an MMOG, because the design he does have isn't in a working MMOG. To say Razorwax WILL make a great game is putting the cart before the horse.

EDIT: Yes, Advertising IS EVIL. I work in advertising, I should know.

The whole siege fort/gloomer thing taking six hours sounds like something that might attract the hardcore, but won't solve the problem of zergs or of 3 a.m. raids. Again, if it is more advantageous for a guild to have most of its membership take the day off to attack when the defender cannot get people online without also taking the day off, they will do so. Your design will not have solved anything.

Personally, I'm leaning more and more towards the only fair solution for sieging is to make the damn thing a scheduled event, like the SB bane scheduling, except where both sides have to agree. Either that, or the siege is an instanced affair that can only occur when both sides have an equal number.

Life is not fair, and neither is war. Good strategy in war requires that you attempt to strike your opponent when he is weakest.

However, games aren't life; they should imitate some aspects of life, while removing the aspects of life that suck. Entertainment is supposed to be fun, not a job.

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Reply #83 on: May 06, 2004, 11:06:54 AM

Preston, I believe the forum you meant to post on is here.  Goddamn fanbois.
Preston
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Reply #84 on: May 06, 2004, 02:04:42 PM

Quote from: Romp

well I'm guessing the more cities you have the more resources you will get and thus the more powerful you will be.  You dont necessarily need geographically isolated resources, I think it would be a bit unfair if your city had absolutely NO access to a valuable mineral or to wood etc but certainly some cities should have better access to certain resources than others, both to encourage conquest and trade.  So near your city you may have a great forest but a really poor copper mine.  So you attack city B next to a mountain which has great access to minerals.


I think this is the way it should be too.  I've heard mention that the closer the province is to the racial capital, the more "built up" it will be.  For instance, the mine will already be built.  Further out and you'll have to build your own mine, etc... These factors may definitely add to the "friction" especially at the outset.

There are other aspects of territory importance too.  And, I guess I talk about territory and city importance in the same breath because if you don't keep a city in the province I don't think you should be able to control the resources there.  I guess you could keep just the clanstone active, but then it would also be very vulnerable to attack.  

Other points to keep in mind is that there will be strategic advantages and disadvantages to territory control.  I can see where you could slowly slide into a position of capturing provinces between your enemy and the racial capital.  (If your enemy is the same race, otherwise would be pretty difficult, but still doable.)  Once those territories are captured, your enemy would have to travel through your territory to reach the racial capital for trade, supplies, etc...

Another reason would be for mountain regions.  There should be (and I think the devs mentioned that there are) some provinces that will have mountain passes in them.  Control those areas and you control travel and trade probably for a pretty wide swath.

Other resources include access to water for fishing and ships for trade or war.  Farmland is another resource.

Overall, I agree there should be one or more resources that are strong in one area and weak in others to promote conquest.

Kingdom of Eleador
Darkfall fanboi extraordinaire!

Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
Claus|Dev> satam: most probably not, go play Barbie Online
Preston
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Reply #85 on: May 06, 2004, 02:20:15 PM

Quote from: Roac


Sounds like the defenders are the uber-alliance, not the aggressors.  What if the primary Alfar guild, and the primary Human guild decide to ally, OOC-ly?  They organize and control the majority of their racial territory, ally up, and decide to divide the world between them (think Axis).  We'll assume for this argument that Human and Alfar are by far the most populous races, and it isn't an off-base assumtion since uberguild leaders tend to pick reasonably popular races (if you run an understaffed faction, you're not an uberfaction...).  The NPCs in each kingdom don't like the opposing side... but who gives a rip?  They get to split up the game territory.  It's happened before.  It's not guaranteed to occur, but it can occur with reasonable probability, and there's nothing in the design (that we know of) to try to prevent it.


Well, certainly the defenders in my scenario turned into an uber alliance to counter-balance the Human alliance that gathered.  Any Inter-racial alliance that doesn't follow the game design factions would be extremely short lived.  Comparable to situations where enemies in the past rally together to defeat a common enemy and once the threat is gone revert back to enemies again.  

You mentioned the NPC's don't like each other and yes, that's a minor annoyance when considering the world division of territory.  However, there's also the issue of racial factions.  Will it be easy to control thousands of players on both sides who receive no penalties for killing each other?  In your example, the Alfar and Humans hate each other and receive no penalty for killing each other.  I think there *could* be an alliance, but how long would that really last?  

There's another comment I'd like to make here and it seems an appropriate place.  I think it would be a really good if the game were coded so that the Darkfall GM's could flip a racial faction switch.  In other words, if the Dwarves, Mirdain, and Humans allied together and got so powerful that they just started rolling over all the other races and their territory, the Darkfall GM's could create through lore and whatnot a war between say the Mirdain and Dwarves to help balance the alliances.  The GM's release some storyline bringing those two races to war, flip a switch and "presto!" you've got two races that were once allies and now their races are at war and able to kill each other with no penalty.  I think this would throw an interesting twist into things and help keep huge race wars balanced.

Kingdom of Eleador
Darkfall fanboi extraordinaire!

Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
Claus|Dev> satam: most probably not, go play Barbie Online
Roac
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Reply #86 on: May 06, 2004, 02:50:23 PM

Quote
Will it be easy to control thousands of players on both sides who receive no penalties for killing each other? In your example, the Alfar and Humans hate each other and receive no penalty for killing each other. I think there *could* be an alliance, but how long would that really last?


No penalties for killing?  So what?  You have games like UO where you have REWARDS for killing people (full loot), but that doesn't cause people to turn on their allies.  'No penalty' isn't a cause to end an alliance - it will last for as long as the leadership wants it to last.  The resource model gives a strong incentive for players to build up and cooperate, because that grants higher monopolization of resources.  I /could/ kill you - but why, if you're willing to work with me?  Less effort.

Guilds generally go kill whoever the leader says go kill.  If your Alfar GM says go kill Alfar, you kill them.  If he says don't kill Humans, you don't kill them.  When following orders leads to social rewards (resource control), people are going to tend to do it.

-Roac
King of Ravens

"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
Preston
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Reply #87 on: May 06, 2004, 03:36:09 PM

Quote from: Roac


No penalties for killing?  So what?  You have games like UO where you have REWARDS for killing people (full loot), but that doesn't cause people to turn on their allies.  'No penalty' isn't a cause to end an alliance - it will last for as long as the leadership wants it to last.  The resource model gives a strong incentive for players to build up and cooperate, because that grants higher monopolization of resources.  I /could/ kill you - but why, if you're willing to work with me?  Less effort.

Guilds generally go kill whoever the leader says go kill.  If your Alfar GM says go kill Alfar, you kill them.  If he says don't kill Humans, you don't kill them.  When following orders leads to social rewards (resource control), people are going to tend to do it.


Well, then I guess our disagreement comes down to human nature.  (There's also full loot in Darkfall.)  I think people follow leaders when it is in their best interest.  In Shadowbane you had to follow leaders and guilds alliances for survival, but when you don't need a city to survive, as in Darkfall, it is going to be really hard to control the clans who don't own cities and are playing to just fight.  

I think the way the races are divided through distance and environment (i.e. the Alfar live underground) coupled with racial hatred, war, and the inability to interact on a massive scale (i.e. 99% of the time a human encounters an Alfar and vice versa it will be at the end of a sword) any long term alliance is going to be extremely difficult.  In fact, I cannot forsee Alfar and Humans ever even getting to that stage.  Possible, but that level of organization would be unprecedented for any game I've ever played.  (Shadowbane aside, that design never had a system to foster racial hatred and separation.)  In my opinion, it would be akin to the opposing races in DAoC allying together to split up the frontier forts amongst themselves evenly.  People naturally want to conquer the whole world themselves.  It is the only way to "win the game."

Kingdom of Eleador
Darkfall fanboi extraordinaire!

Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
Claus|Dev> satam: most probably not, go play Barbie Online
Roac
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Reply #88 on: May 06, 2004, 03:47:35 PM

Quote
Well, then I guess our disagreement comes down to human nature. (There's also full loot in Darkfall.) I think people follow leaders when it is in their best interest.


Think whatever you like, but history says you're wrong.  Again, UO: guilds would ally, and despite no penalty + rewards for PKing their allies, it was fairly rare.  Going against leadership got you tossed out of the clan, which was against their best interest.  People join guilds to be a part of a society - that usually means not going against guild rules.

Quote
when you don't need a city to survive, as in Darkfall, it is going to be really hard to control the clans who don't own cities and are playing to just fight.


Never had an issue controlling guilds in UO, without any city support whatsoever, or in fact any guild support for ANYTHING other than the guild itself.  Beyond that - if you don't need a city, why the hell spend time making one?  That's one of the problems SB ran into with accountability - if I can shop at BigCity and get everything I need without being a member, I don't have to be a member.  Since SB's accountability is restricted to burning down a city, I can dodge accountability; it sounds like DF will have, at a minimum, the same set of issues.

-Roac
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Reply #89 on: May 06, 2004, 04:18:49 PM

Wait, wait.  Darkfall has open PvP and full loot?

Man, I hope they are happy with 10k subscribers.
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Reply #90 on: May 06, 2004, 04:25:47 PM

Didn't know about the full loot bit, but yeah, one of its selling points is that there are no safezones.  Anywhere.  As in, you log in, are 5 seconds old, you can be ganked.  Your only protection are city guards, and a racial rep system.  I don't think it'll take the DF devs long to figure out what a fuckjob that design is.  That's assuming they haven't figured it out by now and just not released the changes.

But if not, I wonder how many level 2s I can burn through in a day.

-Roac
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Reply #91 on: May 06, 2004, 05:08:13 PM

Why level 2? Can you not kill in the training zones?
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Reply #92 on: May 06, 2004, 05:10:50 PM

Quote from: schild
Why level 2? Can you not kill in the training zones?


Ohh come on, level 1s are no challenge at all.

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Reply #93 on: May 06, 2004, 05:12:33 PM

Quote from: Roac


Think whatever you like, but history says you're wrong.  Again, UO: guilds would ally, and despite no penalty + rewards for PKing their allies, it was fairly rare.  Going against leadership got you tossed out of the clan, which was against their best interest.  People join guilds to be a part of a society - that usually means not going against guild rules.


Roleplayers alone will throw any anti-lore, inter-racial hate alliance out of whack.  Even non-roleplayers "want" to follow the lore.  Did you play Lineage II in beta?  If you did, do you remember what players would scream over the shout channel if a light elf came into the dark elf territory or city?  My god, it was bloody murder.  I heard this probaby 10-15 times a day.

Over and over again.  As a player myself, I wanted so badly to kill those light elves just because they were in "our" territory.  It was pure instinct.  I absolutely hated the fact light elves could shop freely and hunt in our racial territories.  It was just plain stupid.

Towards the end of closed beta there were regular calls for "raids" on the other race.  I was thinking, "how the hell are they doing that?  Everyone will go red and lose everything they've got."  So I went down to the raiding meeting place and hundreds of dark elves were gathered and then ran to the light elf territory to kill them.  They went red, they died, they lost everything.  Yes, it was towards the end and a wipe was coming, but it also illustrates a natural inclination players have of banding together based on common characteristics to kill another group with different characteristics.  It is the same thing we do in real life in war.  You find the differences to disassociate yourself from the enemy.  

Those dark elves could just as easily have formed RPK parties and gone after members of their own race which probably would've been a lot easier.  But they didn't.

Another solution could be to make sure each race has something the other races want.  Either in the form of territory, NPC slaves, or other type of resources.

Quote from: Roac
Never had an issue controlling guilds in UO, without any city support whatsoever, or in fact any guild support for ANYTHING other than the guild itself.  


When I played UO back in 1999-2000, there were no uber guild alliances and guild warfare was just a simple join a faction, capture the flag (sigil) thing which really didn't mean squat.  Controlling subordinates in such a sterile environment is a bad comparison.

Quote from: Roac
Beyond that - if you don't need a city, why the hell spend time making one?  


Well, the reason varies with each individual, I'm sure.  Some people build a city to roleplay.  Others build a city to get rich in a virtual world and show of their worldly prowess and possessions.  Others build cities to gain fame.  Others build cities to gain military strength and conquer the world.  Others build cities because they like to create.  Hell, some people build cities just because they can.  

Quote from: Roac
That's one of the problems SB ran into with accountability -if I can shop at BigCity and get everything I need without being a member, I don't have to be a member.  Since SB's accountability is restricted to burning down a city, I can dodge accountability; it sounds like DF will have, at a minimum, the same set of issues.


I didn't see this issue of accountability as big of a problem in SB as you did.  I am assuming you're referring to the RPK's who would be cityless and were fine outfitting themselves via open cities.

The RPK accountability issue in Shadowbane was pretty much a non-factor.  I enjoyed the occasional skirmishes with the RPK's and it made things reasonably interesting at least.  

The way this is addressed in Darkfall is that if you want to go that route and not have a city, just buying stuff from other cities, you can.  But if you want to do that and RPK your own race life will be tough.  Not impossible, but tough.  You won't be able to use the NPC's of the other races/cites, and you won't be able to use the NPC's of your home either.

Hopefully, there will be enough RPK's anyway to make things interesting once in a while.  ;)

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Reply #94 on: May 06, 2004, 05:13:09 PM

Sweet fuck. You just don't get it. Go away.
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Reply #95 on: May 06, 2004, 05:52:45 PM

Quote from: Preston
Sir Bruce type stuff.


Uber Guilds will be uber guilds, and I will put money on the fact that several servers will be totally choaked down, to the point of no PVP at all.

It happened to several Shadowbane servers, and it could happen here. Oh, there will be Pkers and Gankers, but I bet there will be no big "wars" on some of the servers due to uber guild alliances.
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Reply #96 on: May 06, 2004, 06:57:57 PM

Quote from: Roac
Didn't know about the full loot bit, but yeah, one of its selling points is that there are no safezones.  Anywhere.  As in, you log in, are 5 seconds old, you can be ganked.  Your only protection are city guards, and a racial rep system.  I don't think it'll take the DF devs long to figure out what a fuckjob that design is.  That's assuming they haven't figured it out by now and just not released the changes.

But if not, I wonder how many level 2s I can burn through in a day.


 Its not a "fuckjob" design if done right. In eve you can going haywire in any sector -but depsite that there is no newbie spawn camping .why? - becuase of rep system and automated guards.

 Safe zones are not neccessary to protect newbies.
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Reply #97 on: May 06, 2004, 07:45:19 PM

Full loot at this point is in.  It has been commented on past that that will be tested during beta, and if it can't be balanced in such a way that it isn't a total and utter frustration every time it happens, then it may be reduced to inventory/bag loot only. We've been assured they'll try and make it so that items aren't so key to a character that it is that big a deal, and try to make it that their availibility is such that it isn't that big a deal to reequip with at least 'standard' equip, good enough to head back out there..

But I guess it's gonna fall into the hands of the first major set of beta testers. The DF community for the most part seems pretty set to having full-loot in, so hopefully wont be an issue.. But too many whiners could work their way in.. I guess we'll just have to see. It's a hard one to comment on, since the last update we got on this was a looong time ago.

Perhaps Claus could give us something new on it, if there is anything new on it yet.


But the other thing wanted to note.. Is that DF isn't based on levels at all. There is no level 1, level 2 etc. It's all on your skills, both character and player based.

They said that the balance they're going for is that 3 no0bs, fresh of the character screen, but with a good grasp of how to control their characters, will be able to take down a better equipped and more highly character-skilled character, who isn't so sure of how to do what their char is meant to do.

So basically, IF they get that right, ebayers should be an amusing sight, and good for a good loot-down.
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Reply #98 on: May 06, 2004, 07:53:49 PM

Preston, no offense but I liked the idea of Darkfall a lot more before you started defending it with speculation. Your comments only point out how little factual information is available.

I love the idea of Darkfall but I need to see more than a lot of vague ideas posted on a website before I buy into a game. I know a great deal about the ideas behind Darkfall but I don't know anything about the actual game. Neither do you, Preston, which is why people keep calling you a "fanboi". Please do RazorWax a favor and stop speculating about their game. If they want to speak up and let us know what they are doing then they will.

Like someone said, Claus is a very likable guy who says a lot of likable things. I assume that's why he does the majority of the Darkfall interviews. It's a rare pleasure to catch him speaking out about his game (even on his own boards). It would be hard to find anyone willing to say anything bad about him.

I'm sure that everyone would love for Darkfall to materialize exactly as it has been billled and be the most successful MMOLG ever... the problem is that it'd also be the first MMOLG to ever become anything like what it was suppose to be like.

It'd be fun to know what the plans are so that we can tear them down and poke holes in them but I guess we'll have to wait and see. There are only six months left on my Gregorian calendar. Unless RazorWax uses the standard MMOLG developer calendar of SoTBeNAN then we'll all know how much of Darkfall actually turned out like its hype soon enough.

All the same I wish both Claus and the rest of RazorWax the best of luck and promise to preach the gospel if it all turns out.
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Reply #99 on: May 06, 2004, 08:53:28 PM

Preston, you are counting on ROLEPLAYING IN A PVP GAME to keep uber alliance and racial PKing from happening? And you played Shadowbane? ARE YOU ON CRACK? Seriously, it's an honest question.

There are all of 1% of PVP players that actually want to do role-playing enough to make it work. Weren't you in the SB Beta that was the roleplaying build? Sure, there was plenty of roleplaying, until the uber guild figured out that the faction they chose wasn't viable due to racial class restrictions. And you know what? In a PVP environment, where the winners dictate what the losers do in order to compete, if the ubers find roleplaying is not competitive, it goes out the window.

Uber guilds can, do and WILL toss any sort of lore, including racial animosity out the window if it means winning. Uber guilds, people who play and are organized and play only to win, they will form cross-factional alliances, and make them last as long as they want them to.

You sound like you've never played a PVP MMOG in your life, and I know that's not true. But holy shit, drop the naivete.

Preston
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Reply #100 on: May 06, 2004, 09:20:37 PM

Quote from: Pug
Preston, no offense but I liked the idea of Darkfall a lot more before you started defending it with speculation. Your comments only point out how little factual information is available.

I love the idea of Darkfall but I need to see more than a lot of vague ideas posted on a website before I buy into a game. I know a great deal about the ideas behind Darkfall but I don't know anything about the actual game. Neither do you, Preston, which is why people keep calling you a "fanboi". Please do RazorWax a favor and stop speculating about their game. If they want to speak up and let us know what they are doing then they will.


Hey!  speculation was MY word.  There's a lot of stuff that is pure speculation and I thought I made that point perfectly clear.  It is in my posts, but I guess I'll have to use a red font or underline.  Here it is again if I wasn't clear earlier:  I am forthwith making it perfectly clear there's a lot of stuff we don't know about Darkfall yet and that any design I think is great also has to be tested because "every" design has flaws and needs to be worked on.  

The only thing this thread has been about so far is "bashing the Darkfall fanboi" who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. Lately, I have been trying to ignore the moronic fanboi flame posts, but they just keep coming.  (I mean, come on, if you're going to flame me say something original.)  Alas, I've been trying to stick to talking about design concepts without much luck.  

People here are obviously focused on just wanting to play the game before they make any decisions about playing another MMORPG.  Hey, that's great.  Wait and play the game.  I certainly don't blame you given all the failed games in the past.  I beta tested a bunch of games like Fallen Ages which never make it to release.  I've been through the MMORPG grinder myself.  Are you now saying I can't get excited about some design concepts I think should have been implemented a long time ago?  Screw that, I can be as excited as I want to be.  

Finally, when I do talk about Darkfall and make a factual statement it is only based on what has been stated by the Darkfall devs in the past.  Anything else is my opinion and what I would like to see in the game.  I think I've been using pretty clear language as to what the devs have said about the game and what my opinion is.  If you think it has been ambiguous, point it out and I'll clarify.

Honestly, it is no small wonder Claus and the rest of the Darkfall devs don't speak more about what is in Darkfall.  If I were them I would clam up and not say a word about anything until right before release.  I think it is readily apparent that any information given out gets thrashed around, chewed up and spit out in a manner that doesn't provide an constructive feedback.  Releasing information on games is a full-time job because the gamer community is so critically rabid.  I don't think Claus wants to spend his entire day here answering questions, many of which have been answered before, and are inevitably going to get asked again 1,000 times.  

There were some questions people had originally that have been  answered by the devs.  In fact, a lot of the questions asked by Soukyan have already been answered to a large extent on the Darkfall website and in dev chats.  People here say, "I want info!" and yet, once they get info they say, "I don't believe it until I see it working in-game!"  So, why should Claus or any other Darkfall dev say anything at all?  More than likely a majority of responses will be, "I'll believe it when I see it, "  Thus, the cycle continues.

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Reply #101 on: May 06, 2004, 09:24:38 PM

Eh.. A lot of the problems with SB and uber alliances were as much a problem of the implementation and lack of any thought process surrounding it whatsoever.

ie; If you believed the lore, the elves would be shunning about everyone else, the Irekei would've been killing everyone else in the name of their dragon god, and the humans wouldn't've been so completely gimpy.

But you come in game, create a character, and everyone is tossed together on the same starting island.. o.0

For DF, we do know that there will be penalties for having ARAC cities (Guards will attack races they especially don't like, NPCs will decline services etc), which is fine at that level..

But in terms of multi-guild alliances and the like.. Where the alliance is mostly there on paper, and away from the actual cities.. You're right.. It could be a major problem. I don't really know how it could be worked around without placing too many artificial restrictions into the game.

I do raise the question though, if losing a city wasn't such a big deal. If it didn't immediately gimp anyone that wasn't finished training.

Cos let's face it, in SB, if you didn't own, or at least have access to, a high ranked trainer when you needed it.. You were totally screwed. There was nothing you could do.

In DF, you don't need trainers to that extent. Nor NPC crafters. You can live out of a NPC city without any penalty in these respects.

The need for such 'uber-alliances' to ensure continued existance and inflow of new members is thus muchly reduced.

Granted, it doesn't in any way prevent these alliances from forming.. And yeah, they might still completely dominate.. But I think you'll find that with lesser reliance on their city, and a lesser end result for having lost it.. (Not to mention less time invested in initial creation, and farming to keep it) That people may be far more willing to wage war, consequences be damned.
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Reply #102 on: May 06, 2004, 09:30:03 PM

Haemish, I agree that roleplaying will not be a dominant factor in a PvP MMORPG.  But I think it can be A factor.  We played on Deception in Shadowbane and not one of the roleplaying servers.  Darkfall plans to have servers that can handle 10,000 each.  So, in my opinion, it could very well be possible to encounter enough roleplayers to tip the balance in a PvP environment.  Especially if the game structure supports the lore.  WHICH SHADOWBANE DID NOT DO AT ALL!

And for Haemish and all my other rabid badger-like friends here at F13, I'm leaving on vacation for at least three days tonight.  I know at this very moment some of you are clapping and cheering, maybe even drinking some beer at the good news.  I am sorry to disrupt your wild celebrations, but I shall return!

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Reply #103 on: May 06, 2004, 09:30:52 PM

No, you won't.
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Reply #104 on: May 06, 2004, 10:24:52 PM

Quote from: Dark_MadMax

 SB was fucked up from design stage - horrid technical implementation just overshadowed complete lack of consistent vision by WP.



it wasnt perfect but still it would have been an excellent game if it was implemented bug free.  And if they didnt have to spend all their time trying to fix the login server/lag/crashing etc etc they may have had time to actually fix those design flaws.

I still played the game hardcore for over a year and enjoyed it even with all its flaws.

Quote



 There is no such things such as "good incomplete design". -Either design is complete either its bullshit .  Design should adress all major  issues from the very beginning and define  all crucial game aspects ,fun factors , balancing mechanisms  ,even UI.  When you have WP like approach - this we will add later, this issue we consider to player to cope with , this one will take too much time to code ,etc.etc. In the end you end  with a complete wreck.


Firstly, for all we know the design is complete we just dont know the full picture.  But we can make a judgment on what we do see, which IMO is excellent, we just cant make a judgment about how good the game is going to be yet, even if we did assume perfect implementation.

2ndly, no design is going to be complete before public beta testing even happens, thats one reason you beta test, because things that you think look good on paper, turn out to suck.  In fact you cant even really test things fully until the game releases and there is always the chance to make design changes after release if things dont go as you expect them to.

Making  an open pvp game with full loot and a city building/sieging system is very challenging.  Far more challenging than your average monster bashing MMORPG and a lot of games cant even get that right.
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