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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Archived: We distort. We decide.  |  Topic: Interview with Darkfall's Lead Designer - Claus Grovdal 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Interview with Darkfall's Lead Designer - Claus Grovdal  (Read 38474 times)
CRIMSON
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Reply #35 on: May 04, 2004, 07:31:51 PM

Quote
if everyone has to have this uber weapon to be effective in PvP, then everyone will have the uber weapon already


Than it wouldn't be uber :-p

ok change that to uber rare item. Or Uber Unique item.

Edit: hit post to fast
Preston
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Reply #36 on: May 04, 2004, 08:31:04 PM

Quote from: Pug

I don't differentiate between harming a player while they are online and harming them while they are offline. As we've seen in ShadowBane, losing something of value while you're offline can be extremely frustrating and leave you feeling helpless. Since zergs and ninja raids tend to leave players feeling frustrated and helpless and territory control is suppose to play a major role in DarkFall I'd have to assume that any solution Claus has will either make or break his game.


I see your point.  I guess I trivialized it too much for you.  My thinking on this matter though is that we were still in control of what happened even if we were offline.  You had the real ability to organize overnight defense by setting up "night watches" of guildmates who would start the phone bank ringing at the first sign of trouble.  Or using diplomacy skills to garner enough allies to be able to meet a response at 3a.m.  The Ninja raiding to me is an issue, but will never take away my enjoyment of the game completely.  I just don't consider it a game breaker.  Kind of like an annoying fly.  Regardless, 3a.m. destruction of a city won't be effective in Darkfall because sieging is a very long and ardous process that comes in stages.  


Quote from: Pug
It's not Claus' fault that I'm skeptical. There have been way too many MMOLGs that have promised the moon and delivered butt crack. "Wait and see" turns into "We'll add content as we go" and then "Look for features that were suppose to make it into the original game in our first paid expansion" and finally "Our next paid expansion will fix some of the bugs that have plagued our game since its release." I'm not really looking for an explanation as to why the DarkFall developers can't devulge information. I'm looking for proof of concept. There's not much RazorWax can do to appease me other than release a fully functional game that is also fun to play. It's nothing personal.


Again, just about the entire PvP MMOG community is skeptical.  I think we got screwed with UO and we haven't had a really decent PvP game since AC-Darktide.  The PvP community is bitter, but when game developers start talking about everything we want maybe we should support them?   I mean, if we really want it, let's back the ideas that we really want and slam the ones we don't.  I think it is the only way we can help forge our own destiny for the games we want.  I'm not going to let Shadowbane or any other game dictate my attitude of what can or cannot be done.  I know it can be done.  I mean, this stuff isn't freaking rocket science.  Well, ok maybe some of it is.  :P

Sidenote:  Darkfall has stated they will be releasing expansion-size updates for free:  http://www.darkfallonline.com/features/be_heard.html

Kingdom of Eleador
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Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
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Preston
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Reply #37 on: May 04, 2004, 09:09:14 PM

Quote from: Roac


I think "never been done before" is more than a little streatch.  That's just factions again.  Unlike DAoC, DF has unrestrained PvP - unlike SB, there are some alignment penalties, which translate to penalties around racial capitals, for PK.  Or not so unlike, if you consider every SB alliance to be a racial faction, pissing off that alliance gets you / your guild KOS to all their cities, which seems to be the same thing here, except that DF is automatic while SB is player driven.  Of course, neither DAoC or SB were "genius" with these ideas either (brave, probably) - UO had a faction system and open PvP.  It didn't invent the ideas either, since UO was derrived from MUDs, which have had hundreds of implementations of PvP (faction, open, partial, etc) going back 20 years.


Well, Roac, you really described the "genius" in Darkfall.  It takes the best and leaves the rest. The genius is in the fact that it is a system that I think will work really well and it is has been in front of MMORPG developers for so long, but never used like this to its full potential.  The genius I see in Darkfall's design is that I can see this WORKING so well in other games.  It pulls the best stuff together in one package.  I mean, I play Lineage II and I think, "damn, this would work great if the PvP had racial factions, alignment hits were reworked and guard power adjusted like Darkfall."  I wanted to see something like this work in DAoC even before I saw it.  I always thought, "why in the world can't we invade and raid the other racial territories?"  Yes, factions and alignments have been in other games, especially Ulitima Online, but I have yet to see it implemented and designed the way Darkfall is.  Give me one example where it is exactly the same and I'll play it in a heartbeat.  I want to play it right now, I think it is that good.


Regarding Ninja raiding:
Quote from: Roarc

People seem to have brief memories.  Yes, these can most definately be serious problems.


Except when you're on the delivery end of it!  This point is moot, I don't see Ninja raids being effective with Darkfall's siege system.  While not set in stone, there's bound to be adjustments in beta, here's an article with a good breakdown:  http://www.mmorpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=715

Quote from: Roarc


When has any dev team ever come out and said "We are not addressing this issue"?  It's a content-free statement.  It should be taken for granted that for any problem, those in charge are going to say they are addressing it.  In no way does that help reduce from the entire field of possibility which solution they are going to pick (to include status quo).


Well, "addressing the issue" was my language, so it shouldn't be attributed to Razorwax.  As I see the current mechanics of Darkfall's siege system (see link above) the Ninja raids are already ineffective.  Claus seems to indicate there may be more counter measures DF is working on.  I don't know what those are but if it is above and beyond the siege mechanics already stated - well, it can only get better.

Quote from: Roarc

Any dev would more than likely be flattering himself if he thought keeping a design secret was to prevent copies.  Lack of design suggestions has never, ever, been a limitation.  There are piles upon piles of ideas out there, many of which are broken down, categorized, and analyzed by various fans and amateur devs.  I can attest to this first hand as a MUD dev - there was always a mountain of really good ideas.  Most of them never got put in, and i knew at the time they wouldn't.  The shortage isn't ideas, it's manpower (for MMOGs, that means money).  

Pick any problem, large or small, in any MMOG.  All a dev has to do is make a post asking for feedback on what to do, and he will be near-instantly inundated with hundreds (literally) of suggestions, including point-counterpoint rebuttals.  Some of them will actually be quite good.  Some, though, will simply cost too much to be worthwhile (or so the devs perceive).  Sometimes the problem itself is not viewed to be problematic enough to warrant dev-time.  Very, very few ideas are truly revolutionary, in the sense that you'll want to keep them quiet for fear of someone getting the jump on you.  It's the type of thing you might get once in your life if you're lucky.  Maybe DF has such an idea, but I'd bet against.  It's also noteworthy that such ideas are rarely along the lines of "lets add factions!" and usually more like "lets invent the MMOG genre", or "lets add easy-to-use network play to our RTS!".

It's a safer bet that it's #2 - the idea isn't finalized, probably because the alotment of personnel hasn't quite been worked out yet.  DF is already sitting on 4y in development, without word of when beta is (besides "soon"), so time is getting to be quite precious.  I'm sure the DF guys know exactly what they want to do.  That's the easy part, and the part that entraps so many devs.  The other likely reason is that there are contractual obligations to their pub which is keeping the lid on things (so that marketing can take advantage of timing).


Very possible.  My answers on these points are pure conjecture.  

Quote from: Roarc

History shows that this isn't what gets products out the door, however.  Unless we admit that figures of past did not have these qualities, in which case we are poor judges of character, which means we might be making mistakes with the Razorwax team.  Either way, we've been down this road before.  Many times.  It isn't that people here are "callous, jaded, scab-infested, wound-licking cynicsts" (well, some are) - it's that people like you keep showing up saying the same damn shit, and expect people to jump up with glee.  Nothing new is being brought to the table.  It isn't about belief - MMOGs aren't my religion.  I, and most people here, expect to see a solid design, real backing, deadlines, and so forth, because we know steaming piles of marketing turds when we see it.  Behind that Dogbert Enterprise, there might well be a fantastic game, but don't expect anyone here to have faith in MMOG medicine men.


History shows us that people with great ideas create, invent, and pave the way for future progress.  Where would we be if so many inventors in the past just decided to keep their ideas to themselves?  Where would we be without the ideas of electricity, automobiles, and phones?  Well, we certainly wouldn't be playing any online games.  This is why I also really respect Shadowbane.  Sure, they fell down in a lot of areas.  But those initial developers (and I'm pretty sure that team got changed in mid-stride) had great ideas and for better or worse, it is paving the way for future generations of MMOG's.  We learn from the mistakes of Shadowbane and move on having learned not to repeat them.  This is what Darkfall does.  They learn, they don't keep repeating the same stupid stuff we don't want like all those other cookie cutter MMORPG's.  

Your faith is in tangible goods.  You'll see it when you believe it.  That's fine.  That's nice because it makes you feel safe that way.   You don't project your expectations and get let down if a game doesn't produce the desired results.  That's okay.  There's nothing wrong with that.  My faith is in the ideas.  I have no problem in believing in ideas, even if they are doomed to failure.  I feel that the striving for those ideas is what drives innovation, creativity, and ultimately, the game I want to play.  I refuse to settle for second best and play a game just because idiots think killing the same mob 5,000 times is fun.

Kingdom of Eleador
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Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
Claus|Dev> satam: most probably not, go play Barbie Online
Preston
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Reply #38 on: May 04, 2004, 09:34:34 PM

Quote from: Roac


Mmm... I think cities need a couple things.  One, a geographically isolated resource means that you can restrain (or direct) where cities are placed.  Sticking one in the middle of a desert suddenly doesn't have a lot of meaning, unless it can serve as a trading post (but that requires some meaning to be given to distance-based trading).  If cities can be used to help control a region, then it may have military value - but it needs to extend beyond the walls of the city (which, historically, real cities did).


I agree compeltely.  Building a city in your province in Darkfall allows you to control the NPC guards for that province.  (As I understand it, NPC guards can patrol not only the city, but also the land in your province.)The more provinces you have, of course, the more resources you can control and the more military strength you gather as you have the ability to direct who your NPC's attack.

Quote from: Roac
Also, players need to have a reason to need and use a city.  If I own the city, that's great - I'm a king, and a monopoly.  Sucks for the 400 other people who live there, and there isn't a lot of reason for them to go make their own city - you're just duplicating effort, and doubling the total cost.  Also sucks that they don't get to participate in any of the l33t city-owning things I get to do.


Again, I agree completely.  In Shadowbane, as the leader of our guild, I was faced with a tough decision.  Have the Inner Council control all buildings and shops within the city or let some people I knew a couple of weeks start building and investing in the cities' future.  I chose the former for security purposes and the fact that we were really limited to 10 protected buildings.  It was a disaster.  I lost hundreds of citizens.  When they earned enough funds they went out and planted their own ToL and erected their own buildings.  Their primary complaint?  They just wanted to own their own buildings and shops.  From what I can recall, Darkfall's protection area is not limited to the number of biuldings.  I think it is based on area around the clanstone.  This is probably in development and will be worked on in beta.  Add this factor into a very lengthy and difficult siege process and it will be much easier for the average Joe to own and operate buildings.  Which, in my opinon, is essential for a thriving province, economy, and even soldiers to draw from.  Who wouldn't want to help protect their own investment?

Quote from: Roac
Ok, so that needs to end.  Limit what authority city rulers can have, both politically and economically.  Don't void it - "It's good to be king", afterall, but don't make the ruler the end-all, be-all of the city.  Other people are playing the game, too.


Our viewpoints differ on this issue a little bit.  I can see your point, but what about the rulers who want to rule with an iron fist?  I think player freedom on this point is what will make the game really interesting.  In Darkfall, the clan/city options are varied so much that you can pretty much have any political system you want.  I think I remember reading somewhere that it may even be possible to have a democratic province where leaders are elected at specific intervals.  (Don't quote me on that - I'll do some research tonight/tomorrow.)

-Edit- This is probably a more accurate statement to rely on:

Quote
How are clans structured and organized?
The Clan leader can assign ranks to those below him ranging from recruits up to top level commanders. He can also assign rights (a huge list) to ranks as needed and customize the guild structure (recruitment rights - website update rights)

http://www.darkfallonline.com/faq/society.html

There's also mention of "player defined legal systems."  I'll keep looking...

Kingdom of Eleador
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Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
Claus|Dev> satam: most probably not, go play Barbie Online
Preston
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Reply #39 on: May 04, 2004, 09:53:47 PM

Quote from: Fargull
I like the caravan system, and hell, having them instanced content would be fine.  If you wanna go from city X to city Y, you have several options.  One involves just hoofing it, second involves hiring out as a guard on a caravan, which has a small chance of making the journey safely and much greater chance of having a fight or several fights on the way, third option would be to pay to take a coach, which would have a small chance of encountering any trouble.

I like the idea of requiring some sort of tithe at a city gates and even the introduction of having some sort of rest required, but I would not make it directed at sitting in an inn, but just being in the environs of a city/town/village/inn where one's character can also shop/chat up over an ale/train, ect...

I do not like WOW's limitations on where you must rest, but the rest of the system looks good to me.


There's been a lot of good discussion on trading and caravans in this thread.  Requiring resting is an interesting concept.  A couple of things to keep in mind.  We know that Darkfall will have caravans in the game.  There will also be ships (and ship-to-ship combat) to move goods around.  

I think there should be two necessary things required for a good trading community.  (I think a good trading community/routes is essential to good PvP encounters and an interesting world.)  

1) The trade goods need to be really heavy so that they can only be moved in decent numbers by wagons or ships.  (I've seen some racial capital descriptions that bring navigable rivers right up to the capital city and flow out to the sea.)  (I also don't want to see people running back and forth delivering trade goods on foot, turning the game into a marathon cash cow.)  2) I think moving these goods needs to be highly profitable.  I mean, enough to make it worthwhile if pirates attack your ship and sink it.  This needs to be balanced of course, if ships are hard to sink and caravans hard to rob/destroy, then you won't need the trade to be as profitable.  But if I'm losing a ship one out of every two or three trade excursions, either my ship-to-ship combat needs to improve, I need to hire more guards or players to help me, or I need to buy upgrades to make my ship/caravan go faster, etc... Anyway, it seems all but one of those options are additional money sinks.  

Having said all that, I still think the resting idea is cool.  Slows down the trade.  But, it may be that it won't need to be slowed down if the pirates/robbers are just catching up to me and pwning me all the time.  But that's definitely a worthwhile idea for balancing purposes if needed.

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Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
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Reply #40 on: May 05, 2004, 04:48:15 AM

Are you beta testing the game, Preston?

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Reply #41 on: May 05, 2004, 05:10:49 AM

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Except when you're on the delivery end of it! This point is moot, I don't see Ninja raids being effective with Darkfall's siege system.


There isn't really any info on the darkfall siege system. What you posted is it. And what you posted didn't say anything about ninja raids.
Preston
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Reply #42 on: May 05, 2004, 09:09:30 AM

Quote from: CRIMSON


There isn't really any info on the darkfall siege system. What you posted is it. And what you posted didn't say anything about ninja raids.


Well, if you read that article on the siege system, http://www.mmorpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=715 you will notice that buildings are invulnerable until a Gloomer is built.  A Gloomer cannot be built until a siege fort is constructed first.  That takes time and is attackable at any time during construction.  IF the attackers can manage to build a siege fort and IF they can manage to build a Gloomer, then the Gloomer will only make the clanstone and city buildings vulnerable to attacks in small sequences.  During this entire time the siege fort and Gloomer are attackable.  

3 a.m. Ninja raids became popular in Shadowbane because you could run up to a city and destroy any buildings not protected in the city.  The defenders could also time a siege to begin at 3 a.m. and if there were minimal attackers/defenders who showed up, it could be over in minutes.  

From all I've read, the city "area" is protected in Darkfall, not individual buildings limited to 10 like in Shadowbane.  So, the damage inflicted in Ninja raids for all I can tell would be Zero on those expensive buildings.  On a 3 a.m. timed siege, the description indicates sieging takes a really long process (build a fort, then a gloomer, then wait for small sequences) and the attackers are very vulnerable throughout the entire stage.  So, I'm thinking I could probably wake up at 10 a.m., find the attackers working on their siege fort or gloomer and mount a successful defense.   The attackers are in a bad spot no matter what in Darkfall and that's intended.   Destroying a city, in my opinion, should not be a light undertaking.  The heavy investment of resources, time and energy by players should be something highly valued, not something destroyable in a few hours.

Quote from: Soukyan
Are you beta testing the game, Preston?


No, I wish I was.  ;)  DF is still in internal testing.  

Keep in mind that I am NOT in beta.  I just read a lot of the dev chats and Darkfall interviews.  This stuff could and probably will change, especially in beta, but I think it gives us a good idea of what the Darkfall devs are currently testing.  If anyone thinks I'm mistaken on a Darkfall fact, let me know and I'll do my best to dig up a dev quote or interview.

Kingdom of Eleador
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Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
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Reply #43 on: May 05, 2004, 09:47:49 AM

Quote from: Preston
Again, just about the entire PvP MMOG community is skeptical.  I think we got screwed with UO and we haven't had a really decent PvP game since AC-Darktide.  The PvP community is bitter, but when game developers start talking about everything we want maybe we should support them?   I mean, if we really want it, let's back the ideas that we really want and slam the ones we don't.  I think it is the only way we can help forge our own destiny for the games we want.


No. Just no.

Developers can talk a good game all they want. What matters is the fucking result. I'm afraid I've been lathered up a few too many times by devs who promise the moon but in the end can't even give me a stable goddamn login server.

If you want my support, make the game fucking work. It matters what you do, not what you say as a developer. Go sell promises somewhere else, IMO... we're full up here. When I see tangible non-fuckup work from a developer, I'll evangelize the game, such as I've done with City of Heroes. Until then, it's all hype.

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Reply #44 on: May 05, 2004, 10:44:25 AM

Just had to chime in on this-

Quote
My thinking on this matter though is that we were still in control of what happened even if we were offline. You had the real ability to organize overnight defense by setting up "night watches" of guildmates who would start the phone bank ringing at the first sign of trouble.


Fuck the hell out of that. When work calls me in the middle of the goddamned night, I get paid for it. The day my leisure activities require this kind of vigilance is the day I cease to participate in said activity. I play these games for fun and relaxation, not to be on call in case some fucking unemployed catass is trying to fuck me over when I AM OFFLINE.

Any game system that requires this is either broken or caters completely to the hardcore player. Neither situation makes me too eager to whip out my credit card and subscribe.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Reply #45 on: May 05, 2004, 10:51:10 AM

Quote from: HaemishM

Developers can talk a good game all they want. What matters is the fucking result. I'm afraid I've been lathered up a few too many times by devs who promise the moon but in the end can't even give me a stable goddamn login server.

If you want my support, make the game fucking work. It matters what you do, not what you say as a developer. Go sell promises somewhere else, IMO... we're full up here. When I see tangible non-fuckup work from a developer, I'll evangelize the game, such as I've done with City of Heroes. Until then, it's all hype.


LOL City of Heroes?  Do they even have PvP?  I'll be really surprised if you're still playing CoH in 4 months.  If you are, have fun with that PvE bullshit.  

Anyway, I'm not going to hijack this thread arguing with you about Ideas vs. Results.

Kingdom of Eleador
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Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
Claus|Dev> satam: most probably not, go play Barbie Online
Preston
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Reply #46 on: May 05, 2004, 11:00:56 AM

Quote from: WayAbvPar
Just had to chime in on this-
Fuck the hell out of that. When work calls me in the middle of the goddamned night, I get paid for it. The day my leisure activities require this kind of vigilance is the day I cease to participate in said activity. I play these games for fun and relaxation, not to be on call in case some fucking unemployed catass is trying to fuck me over when I AM OFFLINE.

Any game system that requires this is either broken or caters completely to the hardcore player. Neither situation makes me too eager to whip out my credit card and subscribe.


I am a hardcore gamer, you are not.  Case closed.  Don't worry, you won't have to use clan phone banks in Darkfall to succeed.  (But, if you want, DF does support instant messaging and mobile phone SMS messaging.)  http://www.darkfallonline.com/features/interact.html

Kingdom of Eleador
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Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
Claus|Dev> satam: most probably not, go play Barbie Online
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Reply #47 on: May 05, 2004, 11:15:57 AM

Why oh why does anyone think that I give a flying fuck if I'm going to be playing CoH in 4 months? I think that's the point... I don't know and frankly, don't fucking care if I'll be playing it in 4 months or 4 minutes. I AM HAVING FUN NOW. NO OTHER MMOG GIVES ME THAT OPTION.

I don't want to be married to a fucking MMOG, I want to play it when I want to play it and have fun when I do. Being awakened at 4 am by a phone call with the words "They are sieging our castle!" is going to get only one response from me.

CLICK.

Followed by my return to sleep. Followed by my cancellation the next morning.

I don't want a lifestyle anymore, I want a game. If Darkfall can provide that AND give me decent PVP, ok, I'll look into it. If it requires me to be so vigilant that setting up call lists is necessary, it won't even get a second look.

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Reply #48 on: May 05, 2004, 11:29:56 AM

Quote from: HaemishM
Why oh why does anyone think that I give a flying fuck if I'm going to be playing CoH in 4 months? I think that's the point... I don't know and frankly, don't fucking care if I'll be playing it in 4 months or 4 minutes. I AM HAVING FUN NOW. NO OTHER MMOG GIVES ME THAT OPTION.


I think I could have fun playing CoH too.  I'd probably have fun for a couple of weeks, maybe even a month or two.  PvE games are momentary fun for me though.  At the end of it all, I won't be saying to myself, "holy shit, that was an amazing 200 hours I just spent, it felt like I had intense nail-biting adrenaline rushes the entire time."  Why?  At the end of the day PvE doesn't mean squat to me.  It may be interesting and fun sometimes, but it just never beats the excitement of fighting against other human beings.  So, if a game mixes PvE AND PvP and does it right, well, I don't think I'd ever leave.  There would be no reason to.

Kingdom of Eleador
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Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
Claus|Dev> satam: most probably not, go play Barbie Online
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Reply #49 on: May 05, 2004, 11:30:42 AM

Your fanboism, while impressive, is making my eyes bleed. Let Claus speak.
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Reply #50 on: May 05, 2004, 11:46:04 AM

Quote from: Preston
So, if a game mixes PvE AND PvP and does it right, well, I don't think I'd ever leave.  There would be no reason to.


Let me know when I can play that game.

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Reply #51 on: May 05, 2004, 12:06:36 PM

I have not given up on PVE or PVP as playstyles in mmog games.  I have completely given up on mixing the two in one game.  They just don't mix.  People will either like one or the other, or like both and have preferences on a given day which they want.  There will always be times when somone might want to do one but feel pressured for whatever reason to do the other.

I think shadowbane adn darkfall would both be better games with 100% pvp.

[edit]
I would love to be proven wrong, but don't see that happening anytime soon.  Maybe if CoV has instanced pvp matchmaking missions.
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Reply #52 on: May 05, 2004, 01:34:57 PM

Quote
Regardless, 3a.m. destruction of a city won't be effective in Darkfall because sieging is a very long and ardous process that comes in stages.


Another empty statement.  The only thing we "know" about DF sieges is that you have to build a tent, to build a gloomer, to make a clanstone vulnerable, to capture the city.  Ok, how long does this process take, assuming there are no city defenders?  It must be fairly short - no more than a few hours.  Why?  Because the tent is vulnerable during the whole period, and if the tent is burned down you have to start over.  If it's longer than a few hours, you're talking about a siege that will take forever.  You'll bore the participants to sleep, and it will be so heavily tilted toward the city defenders that it'll be difficult to ever mount a successful siege.  Maybe that's the point, but then why bother with a siege system?

If it is on the order of a few hours or less, then 3am raids are an immediate possibility.  Setup the tent at 3am, and let it run until 6am.  The attackers can organize and have a group of 20ish who have the next day off, and the defenders won't have but a couple around, unless they want to start ringing up their guild mates.

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Darkfall has stated they will be releasing expansion-size updates for free


More fluff.  Nothing is free - you pay for it one way or another, whether it's in the new box or the monthly.  The only difference is which method the customers prefer.

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The genius is in the fact that it is a system that I think will work really well


I know, it's ok.  All fanbois think that, in the beginning.

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There's also mention of "player defined legal systems." I'll keep looking...


Yeah, see, that's just it - talk.  Talk, talk, talk.  The proof of the pudding is in the eating.  Meaning, once Razorwax can actually deliver a game, then we'll see what sort of genius they have or don't.  Right now, all they have are a few screenshots and a lot of marketing hype.  They want hype, of course, for the same reason that politicians do - they don't want to go on record with detailed systems that people who know better can rip to shreads, because that's just bad PR.  So they say a lot of vague bullcrap that sounds good, and people like you eat it up and beg for more.  Works great for them, because all these tools-in-training will spam wherever they like to go about how godly they are.

And what everyone here is saying, is bullshit.  We take it for granted that the devs think their product is the hottest thing on the market.  No one in their right mind is going to look to sell something with the slogan "we aim to be average".  Unless they sit down and detail what they intend for the product to do, steps involved, duration, etc - you don't know anything.  Even if they do, you only know that's what they intend to do right now - stuff changes, and features get shelved, but at least a design is something.  If they really want to convince people that the game is so fantastic, open up beta.

-Roac
King of Ravens

"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
Preston
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Reply #53 on: May 05, 2004, 03:07:03 PM

Quote from: Roac

Another empty statement.  The only thing we "know" about DF sieges is that you have to build a tent, to build a gloomer, to make a clanstone vulnerable, to capture the city.  Ok, how long does this process take, assuming there are no city defenders?  It must be fairly short - no more than a few hours.  Why?  Because the tent is vulnerable during the whole period, and if the tent is burned down you have to start over.  If it's longer than a few hours, you're talking about a siege that will take forever.  You'll bore the participants to sleep, and it will be so heavily tilted toward the city defenders that it'll be difficult to ever mount a successful siege.  Maybe that's the point, but then why bother with a siege system?

If it is on the order of a few hours or less, then 3am raids are an immediate possibility.  Setup the tent at 3am, and let it run until 6am.  The attackers can organize and have a group of 20ish who have the next day off, and the defenders won't have but a couple around, unless they want to start ringing up their guild mates.


Pure speculation.  Times can always be adjusted, but Darkfall's siege design is "supposed" to take a long, long time.  It isn't going to be easy and it isn't going to be fast.  It's not going to be something clans do everyday.  Darkfall emphasizes combat over sieges. And fun most of all.  Because it isn't "fun" to lose your city in a couple of hours, you won't.  

Quote from: Roac

More fluff.  Nothing is free - you pay for it one way or another, whether it's in the new box or the monthly.  The only difference is which method the customers prefer.


You are sounding more and more like my grandmother.  She also has a real negative attitude about everything and is always claiming nothing is ever "free."  She also has dementia and Alzheimer's.  Anyway, I give stuff away for free all the time, so there are people out there totally scoring.

Quote from: Roac

I know, it's ok.  All fanbois think that, in the beginning.


I'm proud of my fanboism.  When it comes to Darkfall, it is a badge of honor.  :)

Quote from: Roac

Yeah, see, that's just it - talk.  Talk, talk, talk.  The proof of the pudding is in the eating.  Meaning, once Razorwax can actually deliver a game, then we'll see what sort of genius they have or don't.  Right now, all they have are a few screenshots and a lot of marketing hype.  They want hype, of course, for the same reason that politicians do - they don't want to go on record with detailed systems that people who know better can rip to shreads, because that's just bad PR.  So they say a lot of vague bullcrap that sounds good, and people like you eat it up and beg for more.  Works great for them, because all these tools-in-training will spam wherever they like to go about how godly they are.

And what everyone here is saying, is bullshit.  We take it for granted that the devs think their product is the hottest thing on the market.  No one in their right mind is going to look to sell something with the slogan "we aim to be average".  Unless they sit down and detail what they intend for the product to do, steps involved, duration, etc - you don't know anything.  Even if they do, you only know that's what they intend to do right now - stuff changes, and features get shelved, but at least a design is something.  If they really want to convince people that the game is so fantastic, open up beta.


Razorwax folks have actually been more specific about game design stuff and communicate more than any other developer company I've ever come across.  And I've been around the block a few times.  Started playing video games around 1982.  I guess you just have to get into the dev chats and get to know them to really get a feel for what they are doing.

I'm not here to hype up Darkfall.  I came here to respond to Darkfall design questions that the developers have already answered, but may be hard for people to find.  I'm also here to discuss design ideas or even MMORPG designs in general.  This thread shouldn't be about The Orgasmic Fanboi.  I guess I do get carried away once in a while in my excitement.  No other game concept did this for me though, Shadowbane a little bit, but not to this extent.  

Your comments seem to be mostly a lobby for "show me the game" or "show me the beta."  If you don't want to participate in discussing game ideas, that's fine, don't.  If you want to play Darkfall beta or the game itself, screaming for it isn't going to bring it along faster, just play it when it is comes out.  

I am happy to discuss game design concepts on Darkfall or any other game.  I am happy to participate in a mature discussion of ideas and game concepts just for the sake of discussing.  If the discussion has a positive impact on Darkfall or any other game, then that's great too!  

Quote from: schild
Your fanboism, while impressive, is making my eyes bleed. Let Claus speak.


Thanks for the compliment.... I think.  :)

I really didn't intend to post this much in this thread.  Just wanted to come over and help point a few things out and then disappear into the night.  Unfortunately, I have these rabid F13 pitbulls jumping all over me.  But that's ok, I had a fun time.  

I apologize for semi-hijacking the thread.  I always like to hear from Claus too.  On the other hand, I'd prefer it if he spent his time working on the game!

Kingdom of Eleador
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Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
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Dark_MadMax
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Reply #54 on: May 05, 2004, 04:48:46 PM

Quote

Another empty statement. The only thing we "know" about DF sieges is that you have to build a tent, to build a gloomer, to make a clanstone vulnerable, to capture the city.


  yes  you right we know almost nothing about DF sieges ,yet you are quick to make the system look like SB rip off:

 
Quote


 Ok, how long does this process take, assuming there are no city defenders? It must be fairly short - no more than a few hours. Why? Because the tent is vulnerable during the whole period, and if the tent is burned down you have to start over. If it's longer than a few hours, you're talking about a siege that will take forever. You'll bore the participants to sleep, and it will be so heavily tilted toward the city defenders that it'll be difficult to ever mount a successful siege. Maybe that's the point, but then why bother with a siege system?

If it is on the order of a few hours or less, then 3am raids are an immediate possibility. Setup the tent at 3am, and let it run until 6am. The attackers can organize and have a group of 20ish who have the next day off, and the defenders won't have but a couple around, unless they want to start ringing up their guild mates.



 Thats all wrong assumptions - based on your SB experience . here is a quick draft of siege system which would prevent 3 am raids and phone calls ,yet  meaningfull and time consuming  , but without requiring players have more than 2 hours  game sessions:


 Siege consists of a few fixed stages - such as building gloomer ,defending gloomer , breaching wall defence , breaching gates , brreaching inner courtyard , capturing clanstone .

 Each stage has a predetermined time  - yes we sacrifice surprise element ,but allow people actually have some real life. -after all Bane scheduling proved to be working perfectly in SB  .

 Each such siege stage will be a fast paced battle with clear objective  and time limit - breaking gate  , capturing flag ,etc. etc.  Accoridng to result of battle of  siege will advance to next stage - for example  :

 stage1 : Gloomer building
  atackers objective : defend gloomer and NPC building it
  defenders objective : destroy gloomer

 stage 2: Bulwarks withstand
 
 atackers objective : Defend bulwarks and siege engines which are built
 defenders objective : Destroy bulwarks and siege engines which are built

 stage 3: Walls onslaught

 atackers objective : with aid of siege engines /ladders/rams build in stage 2 break the gate , capture  standpoints on the walls ,etc

 defenders objective :  Do not allow gate breach or occupation of walls be the enemies


stage 4: Courtyard slaughter

   atackers objective : Get control of checkpoints and fortifications strtuctures inside the city

 defenders objective :  Prevent atackers from reaching the objective

stage 5:  Clanstone  capture

  atackers objective : Capture the clanstone  ( by bashing it to 0 hp maybe)

defenders objective : Prevent atackers from reaching the objective

 

 Each stage is separate and without completing objective atackers can't advance to next stage.  Defenders winning in stage 3 for example push atackers back to stage 3 ,  then to stage 2 and if they win stage 1 siege is broken.
 
 You can limit amount of individual battles ( so the siege wont last forever) , tweak bonuses for attacker/defenders in each stage ,stage time limits . Adjust scheduling ,   even make it instanced if you want (though I despise instancing in MMORPG) . Each stage fight would be heated battle with clear objective and fast paced action without 3 hour prepartion and 6 hours Daoc/SB zerg fests .
cevik
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Reply #55 on: May 05, 2004, 04:55:53 PM

You could write almost an identical outline to the sieges in Shadowbane, that's how they work in theory, yet in practice it fucking never works out like that.

All anyone is trying to say around here is, yes the theory that you guys (note:  not the developers, but a couple of people who have read about the game on fansites) are presenting sounds reasonable on paper; however, we'd like to see it actually work before we get excited.

We've all been through the design and launch of nearly a dozen mmogs, each one presented us an outline of the game on paper that sounded fucking ideal, each time it turned out to work like shit in the real world.  Why should we believe this one is going to be different?

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Reply #56 on: May 05, 2004, 05:47:24 PM

Quote
From all I've read, the city "area" is protected in Darkfall, not individual buildings limited to 10 like in Shadowbane. So, the damage inflicted in Ninja raids for all I can tell would be Zero on those expensive buildings. On a 3 a.m. timed siege, the description indicates sieging takes a really long process (build a fort, then a gloomer, then wait for small sequences) and the attackers are very vulnerable throughout the entire stage. So, I'm thinking I could probably wake up at 10 a.m., find the attackers working on their siege fort or gloomer and mount a successful defense. The attackers are in a bad spot no matter what in Darkfall and that's intended. Destroying a city, in my opinion, should not be a light undertaking. The heavy investment of resources, time and energy by players should be something highly valued, not something destroyable in a few hours.


You think it will take 7 hours to build a siege fort/gloomer?

Bottom line, if a siege system is set up so the deffenders can't deffend in off hours than sieging will happen in off hours.

If the system is set up so deffenders have a chance in off hours, attackers will have no choice but to attack in the off hours because they will have abslolutly no chance in peak hours.

The time delay doesn't matter unless it's 24hours or more. When it's that long a siege will span both off hours and peak hours so it won't matter much when you start it. But than who wants to have to stay up for 24 hours?
Preston
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Reply #57 on: May 05, 2004, 06:16:53 PM

Quote from: cevik

All anyone is trying to say around here is, yes the theory that you guys (note:  not the developers, but a couple of people who have read about the game on fansites) are presenting sounds reasonable on paper; however, we'd like to see it actually work before we get excited.


Dark_Madmax just gave us his theory on how a siege could work without 3 a.m. Ninja raids.  He wasn't referring specifically to exactly what Darkfall does.  (If that's what you (Cevik) meant in your post, can't tell.)

I have been giving you information on what we know about Darkfall (and provided a link), I can do nothing more except propose new theories or offer suggestions.  And, yes, we'd all like to see how it works to get excited.  I'm already really excited just based on the fact that the Darkfall developers know what the hell us gamers are talking about.  The fact that DF devs are on the same page is refreshing and exciting to me.

Quote from: cevik
We've all been through the design and launch of nearly a dozen mmogs, each one presented us an outline of the game on paper that sounded fucking ideal, each time it turned out to work like shit in the real world.  Why should we believe this one is going to be different?


For some people the glass is always half empty or half full.  Why should this game *not* be any different?  Look, it seems to me that a lot of posters here at F13 are just saying, "Fuck this"  or "Fuck that" or "I want to see the Fucking game."  Well, we're not going to see the "Fucking" game until it is released or in beta.  

In the meantime, why don't we talk about game design and theory and ways to beat the 3 a.m. Ninja raiding?  My vote is to be productive with our writing and thoughts instead of simply saying, "Fuck that" all the time.

Kingdom of Eleador
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Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
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Preston
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Reply #58 on: May 05, 2004, 06:31:17 PM

Quote from: CRIMSON


You think it will take 7 hours to build a siege fort/gloomer?


I would like it to take 6 or 7 hours just to build the siege fort.  (If not more.)  Then I think it should take another 6 or 7 hours to build a gloomer.  So basically, if you wanted a 3 a.m. Ninja Strike, you'd have to start at 3 p.m., a time when you'll more than likely find some people in the city.  If you manage to build your fort and gloomer and it finishes at 3 a.m., the building protections go down for a short duration and in stages.  So, even if I log-in a day after the siege starts, the battle will still be going on.  Also, spreading out the time should result in some constant and furious battles instead sitting and waiting around forever.  

Sieging should be very difficult and very special events.  Not something done everyday.  I think that if the time is stretched out, it is going to take a lot of time commitment, energy, and co-ordination by the attacking Clan(s).  And from my Shadowbane experience, the more difficult it is for the attacker will translate into more stable cities and a lot less heartache from loss on everyone's part.

Kingdom of Eleador
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Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
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Dark_MadMax
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Reply #59 on: May 05, 2004, 06:33:20 PM

Quote from: cevik
You could write almost an identical outline to the sieges in Shadowbane, that's how they work in theory, yet in practice it fucking never works out like that.

All anyone is trying to say around here is, yes the theory that you guys (note:  not the developers, but a couple of people who have read about the game on fansites) are presenting sounds reasonable on paper; however, we'd like to see it actually work before we get excited.

We've all been through the design and launch of nearly a dozen mmogs, each one presented us an outline of the game on paper that sounded fucking ideal, each time it turned out to work like shit in the real world.  Why should we believe this one is going to be different?


SB never "sounded fucking ideal" even on paper.  I foresaw farming/seige problem even before  game got into beta -nobody ever listened.  

 Actual design and fanboys hype is two different things. -Good design takes care of all major problmes exactly at desgin stage - describing every little  detail necessary for design to function.

 One part I agree though -  DF devs so far didnt do nothign to prove their design decisions are right and sound -they so far didnt even published details of their system .Thats usually means its not even developed yet , let alone play tested. Though  devs never really ever publsihed their design details so far -  afraid t realise that they are building castle on a sand?
cevik
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Reply #60 on: May 05, 2004, 06:33:27 PM

Quote from: Preston
For some people the glass is always half empty or half full.  Why should this game *not* be any different?  Look, it seems to me that a lot of posters here at F13 are just saying, "Fuck this"  or "Fuck that" or "I want to see the Fucking game."  Well, we're not going to see the "Fucking" game until it is released or in beta.  


Maybe a lot of us here at f13 are just remembering how we had to rally the House Daenyr troops at 3 AM to save your cities in Shadowbane and we don't want to do it again (WayAbvPar, whom you insulted above, as well as Haemish and I were all there to fight for your city many times in Shadowbane and I personally don't remember you guys being all that "hardcore" at the time).

We're not saying fuck because we're trying to be hip and trendy, we're saying fuck because we've played every mmog since we quit our MUDs to play UO, and every single one has told us they would be the next coming of Christ.  There are some vague ideas written on paper here that may sound good if they had some real data behind them, but all they are are just some suggestions on how problems are going to be fixed with no hard facts that proves to us the problems are going to be fixed.

Every single game we get you "glass half full, you're a bunch of cynics" fanbois around here, and every game we see you guys whining on the message board about how the game sucks two months after release.  We aren't being cynical, we aren't being trendy, we aren't saying fuck because it's cool, we're just saying that there is no fucking data that backs up the claims you guys are making.

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Reply #61 on: May 05, 2004, 06:39:13 PM

Quote from: CRIMSON

You think it will take 7 hours to build a siege fort/gloomer?

Bottom line, if a siege system is set up so the deffenders can't deffend in off hours than sieging will happen in off hours.

If the system is set up so deffenders have a chance in off hours, attackers will have no choice but to attack in the off hours because they will have abslolutly no chance in peak hours.

The time delay doesn't matter unless it's 24hours or more. When it's that long a siege will span both off hours and peak hours so it won't matter much when you start it. But than who wants to have to stay up for 24 hours?


How about "NO stupid waiting for 6-7 hours"? And instead scheduled staged siege as in my post above? - Good intense good hearted 2 hours sessions on siege at times most convenient for majority of  player on both participating sides.  

 Time delay is from 24 to 64 hours in SB. -works perfectly ( as in preventing unconvenient siege time for defenders ,not that SB siege design overall works any good) .
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Reply #62 on: May 05, 2004, 07:53:13 PM

Quote from: cevik
Quote from: Preston
For some people the glass is always half empty or half full.  Why should this game *not* be any different?  Look, it seems to me that a lot of posters here at F13 are just saying, "Fuck this"  or "Fuck that" or "I want to see the Fucking game."  Well, we're not going to see the "Fucking" game until it is released or in beta.  


Maybe a lot of us here at f13 are just remembering how we had to rally the House Daenyr troops at 3 AM to save your cities in Shadowbane and we don't want to do it again (WayAbvPar, whom you insulted above, as well as Haemish and I were all there to fight for your city many times in Shadowbane and I personally don't remember you guys being all that "hardcore" at the time).


Heh. How quickly we forget. While it's true, HD were there for us in SB, at any time, day or night.. The reverse was true also. We were there any time HD called.

During the last major stages of KoE in SB with a city of it's own, on the two 'major' offensives made against Gaeryn Hope, KoE was prepared if nessacery to sacrifice our own city in the defence of yours. We were willing to do what was best for the NA as a whole, whatever the cost.

On the first time, we were able to repel attacks from both HD's capt. and ours. But KoE still took some considerable damage while we instead aided you guys, and the 2nd time, it was lost.

It's true, we didn't have the same sort of numbers that you guys did. But we sure as hell pulled our weight. Your comment was an unnessacerially low blow, imo.

Quote
We're not saying fuck because we're trying to be hip and trendy, we're saying fuck because we've played every mmog since we quit our MUDs to play UO, and every single one has told us they would be the next coming of Christ.  There are some vague ideas written on paper here that may sound good if they had some real data behind them, but all they are are just some suggestions on how problems are going to be fixed with no hard facts that proves to us the problems are going to be fixed.

Every single game we get you "glass half full, you're a bunch of cynics" fanbois around here, and every game we see you guys whining on the message board about how the game sucks two months after release.  We aren't being cynical, we aren't being trendy, we aren't saying fuck because it's cool, we're just saying that there is no fucking data that backs up the claims you guys are making.


Meh, this bit however.. I do get. I have to admit, that in a way, I'm just as excited and just as convinced that DF is going to be 'The One' as Preston is.. But on the other side of that same coin.. If it isn't? I don't think it's really going to bother me that much.

Sure, it'll be a disapointment. And while I've invested time and some hope into DF after having sort of cautiously followed it for a while.. It's just not the same as before.

Yer right, there's nothing solid. No 'data' that can be taken as absolute proof. The only thing we really have at present, is a feel for the goals and personalities.. sort of.. of the devs.. Yanno, like whether they bend to carebears, what their priorities etc are. Not at all claiming to know anything of them on a personal level, but at least where the game is concerned.. They certainly seem to have the right stuff.

But good intentions alone don't make the game. It /could/ still come out a horrible flop. I don't believe that it will, but the possibility is still there.

If the idea of the game is interesting to you though.. If the design goals are something you'd like to see in a game. I'd suggest keeping a watch on it, even if ya invest nothing. If you got time, and feel like taking part on the forums.. Fine, that's cool. But passing it up entirely when it has the potential to be somethin great due to mistakes of past devs (no matter how frequent, heh) seems to be a bit of a mistake.

*shrug* Just my opinion anywho. I'd love to hear more from the devs, see more shots, see a video, play the beta.. But I'm content to take things as the come. The driving 'need' to play is where the most disapointment comes from when it finally rolls around and it blows.

Anyhow, sorta ramblin. Mostly signed up in responce to the first comment regarding KoE <--> HD in SB, but there ya have it. DF is worth keeping in mind anywho, even if don't want to put any time towards it now, just keep it in mind for when it's a little further on when open beta rolls around.
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Reply #63 on: May 05, 2004, 08:35:09 PM

Quote from: Preston
Pure speculation. Times can always be adjusted, but Darkfall's siege design is "supposed" to take a long, long time. It isn't going to be easy and it isn't going to be fast.


Of course it's speculation, which is why I varied the potential.  If you're talking on a scale of 6h+, you're going to have a system that bores the hell out of players, and that's not speculation.  Other games have had similar features (wait, wait, wait), and it bored THEIR players, and nothing presented so far suggests that anything about DF sieges will be different, IF they take that long.  

Quote
You are sounding more and more like my grandmother. She also has a real negative attitude about everything and is always claiming nothing is ever "free." She also has dementia and Alzheimer's. Anyway, I give stuff away for free all the time, so there are people out there totally scoring.


Companies give things away only as calculations that it will net profit - it's a promotive item.  Bottom line is the company has to pull in more than they spend, to stay afloat.  Meaning, they aren't going to magically whip up new content requiring thousands of manhours of work for nothing.  Those people have to be paid, and the only source of income are subs.  btw, sorry for your grandmother, and you.  It's heriditary, ya'know.

Quote from: Dark_MadMax
yes you right we know almost nothing about DF sieges ,yet you are quick to make the system look like SB rip off:
...
Thats all wrong assumptions - based on your SB experience . here is a quick draft of siege system which would prevent 3 am raids and phone calls ,yet meaningfull and time consuming , but without requiring players have more than 2 hours game sessions:


Partly on SB experience, but I'm familiar with more designs than just that.  Your suggested system fixes nothing however.  Regardless of the set of objectives, it has been stated that the siege tent is vulnerable during the entire duration of the siege, requiring the attackers to defend it for the totality of the fight.  If the totality of the fight is short (0-4h), 3AM sieges have not been voided.  If the totality is longer (4+), you make the siege so long that most attackers won't be able to sustain enough personnel.  The attackers have to win, and win, and win, and win to finally Win.  The defenders only have to win once.  There's no assumtion here - this is what's been given by the DF devs.

Course, they could change that, but that means the whole premise that the DF fanbois are jizzing over is in error.  It would be to their advantage to change it, and I really doubt the fanbois will notice, because that's the nature of a fanboi; something about the game just "clicks", and triggers the "omg, possibility" in their head.  They invent the game according to their ideals, and soon as they see the real thing, reality crashes down.  That's true even if the game is fairly good - that it doesn't conform to their ideal is what's the deal killer.

Quote
One part I agree though - DF devs so far didnt do nothign to prove their design decisions are right and sound -they so far didnt even published details of their system .Thats usually means its not even developed yet , let alone play tested. Though devs never really ever publsihed their design details so far - afraid t realise that they are building castle on a sand?


DF has taken four years to get to this point, and still no word on beta.  Could be a lot of things, not all of them bad - agreements might be keeping the lid on details, just because that's how their pubs are.  Could be they don't have a solid design, which at this stage would be very troubling.  Could be they have a marketing thing on the horizon, which might turn out well.

-Roac
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"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
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Reply #64 on: May 05, 2004, 08:44:06 PM

Quote from: cevik


Maybe a lot of us here at f13 are just remembering how we had to rally the House Daenyr troops at 3 AM to save your cities in Shadowbane and we don't want to do it again (WayAbvPar, whom you insulted above, as well as Haemish and I were all there to fight for your city many times in Shadowbane and I personally don't remember you guys being all that "hardcore" at the time).


Ouch.  Well, when I was leading Eleador for the first month I distinctly remember fighting for your HD's city just as much.  After that first month I left to study for the CA bar exam for two months.  I popped in once in a while on the boards to see how things were going.  It wasn't pretty.  Because of House Daenyr, the fight with Kill Cult was renewed.  KoE stood by House Daenyr and her allies no matter the cost to themselves or the position it put them in. Allies came first.  

In fact, during my two month study period I continued to have access to the leader AoO alliance boards which I checked every once in a while.  In one of those brief checks, Owain from TAO made a secret proposal on the Inner Council AoO boards that the AoO alliance should join with Kill Cult and wipe out House Daenyr.  I was the FIRST person to post AGAINST TAO and their secret proposal to assist Kill Cult and burn HD to the ground.  I strongly advocated that KoE would never betray her allies House Daenyr.  Owyn and Arkat of DoO soon followed suit and TAO decided to leave the AoO as a result.  (Later on, TAO offered immunity to KoE if KoE backed out of the fight.  KoE refused and stood by you guys.)

I came back to Shadowbane around the first of August and found that in my absence KoE had subbed to the Defenders of Order and had fought on for a while on behalf of HD and DoO.  I roll another character called Tarok (because Preston was hella gimped) and also play on Naithin's account with his character.  Don't know if you remember those character names, but I attacked and defended with House Daeynr a bunch of bloody times at 3 a.m.  I finally quit in late Oct, early Nov.  2003.


Quote from: cevik
We're not saying fuck because we're trying to be hip and trendy, we're saying fuck because we've played every mmog since we quit our MUDs to play UO, and every single one has told us they would be the next coming of Christ.  There are some vague ideas written on paper here that may sound good if they had some real data behind them, but all they are are just some suggestions on how problems are going to be fixed with no hard facts that proves to us the problems are going to be fixed.

 
I don't see what the problem is with good ideas, even if they are just on paper.  There's never any harm in discussing possible solutions.

Kingdom of Eleador
Darkfall fanboi extraordinaire!

Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
Claus|Dev> satam: most probably not, go play Barbie Online
Preston
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27


Reply #65 on: May 05, 2004, 09:11:19 PM

Quote from: Roac


Of course it's speculation, which is why I varied the potential.  If you're talking on a scale of 6h+, you're going to have a system that bores the hell out of players, and that's not speculation.  Other games have had similar features (wait, wait, wait), and it bored THEIR players, and nothing presented so far suggests that anything about DF sieges will be different, IF they take that long.  


Roac, look at it this way, during the entire time of the siege the gloomer and fort is not invulnerable.  So, the defenders will want to be mounting continual attacks on the siege fort and gloomer.  And unless the attackers are right there to defend it the siege is over.  If the attackers are sitting around waiting most of the time it should still be exciting because they never know when a likely is attack is coming.  Ok, that last one is weak, but you get my point.

Quote from: Roac
Companies give things away only as calculations that it will net profit - it's a promotive item.  Bottom line is the company has to pull in more than they spend, to stay afloat.  Meaning, they aren't going to magically whip up new content requiring thousands of manhours of work for nothing.  Those people have to be paid, and the only source of income are subs.  


Then let's hope lots and lots of people play so we don't have to pay for expansions, k?

Quote from: Roac
btw, sorry for your grandmother, and you.  It's heriditary, ya'know.


I think I'm going to start getting Alzheimer's now and forget you're posting.  :P

Quote from: Roac
 If the totality is longer (4+), you make the siege so long that most attackers won't be able to sustain enough personnel.  The attackers have to win, and win, and win, and win to finally Win.  The defenders only have to win once.


What's wrong with a super long siege?  I think you should have enough personnel to go 12-14 hours on a siege to be successful.  It should be that rare of an occasion and something that takes a multiple clan effort IMO.  Of course that raises the ugly spectre of zerging.  But like I said before, I really think the attackers need some big time disadvantages.

Quote from: Roac
Course, they could change that, but that means the whole premise that the DF fanbois are jizzing over is in error.


Anything that changes for the good of the game doesn't bother me at all.

Kingdom of Eleador
Darkfall fanboi extraordinaire!

Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
Claus|Dev> satam: most probably not, go play Barbie Online
cevik
I'm Special
Posts: 1690

I've always wondered about the All Black People Eat Watermelons


Reply #66 on: May 05, 2004, 09:12:59 PM

Quote from: Preston

Ouch.  Well, when I was leading Eleador for the first month I distinctly remember fighting for your HD's city just as much.  After that first month I left to study for the CA bar exam for two months.  I popped in once in a while on the boards to see how things were going.  It wasn't pretty.  Because of House Daenyr, the fight with Kill Cult was renewed.  KoE stood by House Daenyr and her allies no matter the cost to themselves or the position it put them in. Allies came first.  


There, now that both sides have gotten the macho "I am a hardcore gamer, you are not. Case closed" shit out of the way can we actually get back on topic?  The point wasn't HD saving KoE or KoE saving HD, the point was you are busy insulting people without stoping to realize that they just might have something insightful to say about video games.

None of us have a problem with discussing wether or not the game ideas behind the game have merit, hell I'm personally looking forward to the game, but until they actually make the shit work it's certainly not worth getting this worked up over.  That's what the people in this thread have been busy trying to tell you, and that's what you've been ignoring.

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Preston
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27


Reply #67 on: May 05, 2004, 09:50:29 PM

Quote from: cevik
There, now that both sides have gotten the macho "I am a hardcore gamer, you are not. Case closed" shit out of the way can we actually get back on topic? The point wasn't HD saving KoE or KoE saving HD, the point was you are busy insulting people without stoping to realize that they just might have something insightful to say about video games.


Ummmm, Way was the one who implied I was a hardcore gamer for liking the game mechanics we were discussing.  And Way was the one who implied he "wasn't" a hardcore gamer.  There was no insulting there.  A hardcore gamer is just a playstyle, nothing more, nothing less.

Quote from: cevik
None of us have a problem with discussing wether or not the game ideas behind the game have merit


Then why aren't you discussing the merits?  

Quote from: cevik
hell I'm personally looking forward to the game, but until they actually make the shit work it's certainly not worth getting this worked up over. That's what the people in this thread have been busy trying to tell you, and that's what you've been ignoring.


This is the most disappointing thing of all.  I came here to clarify some questions people had about Darkfall.  I came here to try and be as helpful as I can and discuss game design concepts whether they were in Darkfall or not.  Instead, I'm labeled as a fanboi and my opinions are dismissed mostly on that basis.  Finally, Darkfall is dismissed without even discussing the game design ideas the developers have.  

I'm going to stop it here on my end because I think the basis for this thread has been horribly twisted into something it was not intended for.  I will no longer respond to anything other than game design comments.

Kingdom of Eleador
Darkfall fanboi extraordinaire!

Satam> question: can we change hairstyles?
Claus|Dev> satam: most probably not, go play Barbie Online
Roac
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3338


Reply #68 on: May 05, 2004, 10:07:27 PM

Quote
If the attackers are sitting around waiting most of the time it should still be exciting because they never know when a likely is attack is coming. Ok, that last one is weak, but you get my point.


Yeah, the proposal is great for the defender.  It sucks ass for the attacker - I get the point.  Holy fuck, that's seriously lame.  C'mon guys, hurry up and wait - for (you hope) 6 hours or more.  Customers want entertainment, not a job.  It isn't so much that people don't want to work at success, but they don't want it to be "work".

Quote
Then let's hope lots and lots of people play so we don't have to pay for expansions, k?


Take an economics class.  Really.

Quote
What's wrong with a super long siege?


Doesn't sound like a lot of fun.  For the attacker, it's sit around and wait.  The defender can show up at any point in time to mount an offensive.  The attackers have to maintain high alert and mobility status for a "super long" time.  Most people are going to show up, realize not much is going on, and head off to do something else.  You're facing a difficulty of attaining the victory condition out of sheer boredom.

Quote
Of course that raises the ugly spectre of zerging.


And yeah, that's another difficulty.  If there is no game mechanic to try and break down uber empires, there is a real chance that uber empires will form.  The only characteristic preventing uberguilds is the individualistic streak of most gamers.  The force typically pushing guilds to coalesce is economy of scale.  If you can get a Mafia like group to come together, you have multiple advantages; being able to bring more people onto the field (and while it may not increase the percent who remain despite boredom, it increases the total number who do), and being able to intimidate your opponent through sheer force.  If a group feels a conflict is a total lost cause, some on the side of the loosers simply won't show up - even if there is no game penalty for being on the field.  People don't like to lose.  

Quote
Anything that changes for the good of the game doesn't bother me at all.


Ok, so we're back to where you're sitting on nothing but hype.  If their current design is genius, it doesn't need improvement.  If there is real cause to think improvement is needed, it isn't genius.  You may want to take a logic class as well.

-Roac
King of Ravens

"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
Roac
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Posts: 3338


Reply #69 on: May 05, 2004, 10:35:45 PM

Quote
Then why aren't you discussing the merits?


Because most of us here don't see any rational merit to the few ideas put on the table, and absolutely no merit to fluff.

Quote
I came here to try and be as helpful as I can and discuss game design concepts whether they were in Darkfall or not. Instead, I'm labeled as a fanboi and my opinions are dismissed mostly on that basis.


You're labeled a fanboi because you haven't discussed a lot about game design.  Read Dark_MadMax's post - he has a suggestion of a design.  It's not complete, and isn't (far as we know) what DF is using.  It has problems, but man, at least there's something to sink your teeth into if you wanted.  You've mentioned a lot of what you want - but what you want isn't part of the DF game design concepts.  We can talk about those of course, but in no way does what you or I think about game design translate to DF genius.  Here is something closer to smart game design.  Maybe not good design - I'd take issue with a few of that author's points (not least the requirement to read thirty links to know what he's talking about), but you have something to talk about.

The only design you have brought to the table, as a messenger for DF:
You must build a siege tent to initiate a city siege.  The tent builds a gloomer.  The gloomer makes, in increments of indeterminite length, the city vulnerable.  The tent (the key for offense) is vulnerable for the entire duration of the siege.  The siege is intended to take "a long time".  Cost for the siege (either for offense or defense) is unknown.  Total set of tools available to either side is unknown.  This is the design you call genius, and practically salivate over.

It doesn't solve the zerg problem.  Possibly doesn't solve the 3am siege problem.  Introduces a new problem of siege boredom for the aggressor, with the degree of the problem being inversely related to the 3am siege problem.  Doesn't address the problem of cost vs reward for the aggressor and defender.  It does nothing to address the problem of griefing on a guild level.

DF may turn out to be an outstanding game.  As a gamer, nothing would make me happier.  If people want to be fans of the game, that's peachy too.  Everyone needs a hobby, and if following DF floats your boat, more power to you.  However, if you're serious in wanting to discuss the design, you've got to offer up a design first.  I'm hoping you'll figure out the difference between a design and marketing - it's the confusion of the two in addition to being a normal fan that earns you the label of fanboi - a fanboi is someone who really believes his own bullshit.

-Roac
King of Ravens

"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
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