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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Archived: We distort. We decide.  |  Topic: Interview with Darkfall's Lead Designer - Claus Grovdal 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Interview with Darkfall's Lead Designer - Claus Grovdal  (Read 22943 times)
Romp
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Reply #105 on: May 06, 2004, 10:29:06 PM

Quote from: Roac
Didn't know about the full loot bit, but yeah, one of its selling points is that there are no safezones.  Anywhere.  As in, you log in, are 5 seconds old, you can be ganked.  Your only protection are city guards, and a racial rep system.  I don't think it'll take the DF devs long to figure out what a fuckjob that design is.  That's assuming they haven't figured it out by now and just not released the changes.

But if not, I wonder how many level 2s I can burn through in a day.


Although this is technically true.. well it was technically true in UO too.  But there are going to be guards in the cities and around the cities.  They arent going to be like UO's guards but they certainly are going to be uber enough and numerous enough to kill any racial enemies or people with bad alignment who pk in town or even enter the guard zone.  

So yes while there are no safe areas the chances of being pk'd in town I imagine will be pretty damn close to next to nothing.
Romp
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Reply #106 on: May 06, 2004, 10:38:13 PM

Quote from: HaemishM
Preston, you are counting on ROLEPLAYING IN A PVP GAME to keep uber alliance and racial PKing from happening? And you played Shadowbane? ARE YOU ON CRACK? Seriously, it's an honest question.


Racial pking will happen but its questionable for an uber guild whether racial pking would be wise.  I think people who pk their own race will mainly be solo pks and outlaws etc not uber guilds with towns.

As far as racial alliances go, the only thing really that is keeping different races allying together is this:

npcs in player towns will auto attack enemy races.  This means if you have an ARAC guild then you cant really have a town, unless you want your merchants and guards attacking your members.

It also means its pretty difficult to ally with enemy race guilds too.  Because if your town is under siege then they cant really provide much help, again because of the npc factor.

So ARAC guilds if they exist will be townless guilds who go around pking everyone I am guessing, but if they make towns useful enough then hopefully this wont be too attractive.

It makes sense for a guild to stick to one racial alliance and this means it also makes sense for them to be friendly to their own racial alliance as this is where their recruits and allies will be coming from.  Since there are plenty of people from other races to kill I dont really see why you would really want to go and indiscriminately pk your own race if you were a guild with a town.

So i think the possibility of uber ARAC clans controlling the whole world as happened in SB is far fetched.  

Oh and roleplaying will play absolutely zero part in preventing this, its all up to the game mechanics.
B-prime
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Reply #107 on: May 06, 2004, 11:14:08 PM

Watch out for an influx of more DF fanbois people.  This forum, and this very thread has been linked on the DF boards by Preston.
schild
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Reply #108 on: May 06, 2004, 11:22:08 PM

Quote from: Darkfall Fanboi
Well, I just headed over to F13.net to answer some questions about Darkfall. You know, the forum where Claus did an interview and made some posts in their forum this week.

Well, I quickly got labeled a "Darkfall Fanboi" and tonight I got banned for it!

I got flamed quite a bit and now I can't answer back! If you feel like jumping in to discuss stuff, please do!


Alright. So he got the clue. But first, the way he was flamed was quite polite compared to what I got when I set foot into Wt.o. Oh, and he isn't banned....yet. On that note:


Some clarification.

This thread will be kept fanboi-free from this post on. I don't like moderating, I don't normally moderate, but it seems some moderation is needed.

Edit: BBCode is (continually) hard, but not as hard as avoiding repetition.
Roac
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Reply #109 on: May 06, 2004, 11:27:00 PM

Quote
Why level 2? Can you not kill in the training zones?


I'm lazy.  If I'm going to kill newbies, I want at least some level of statistical advantage.

-Roac
King of Ravens

"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
Roac
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Reply #110 on: May 07, 2004, 12:15:42 AM

Quote
Although this is technically true.. well it was technically true in UO too. But there are going to be guards in the cities and around the cities. They arent going to be like UO's guards but they certainly are going to be uber enough and numerous enough to kill any racial enemies or people with bad alignment who pk in town or even enter the guard zone.


Cities in UO were referred to as safe zones.  It was technically possible to pk someone in the city, but was rare.  So, if guards are so uber that it is not for all realistic purposes an option, then cities are safezones.  Don't mince terms; if I want to go kill people in an NPC city, can I?  If yes, then it's not a safezone, and newbies are vulnerable.  If not, then it is a safezone, and we again have a game that is not making itself as different from SB as some DFers are claiming.

Which, isn't a terrible thing, considering I enjoy SB.  As a customer, I want more PvP+ games.  I don't much care for a design that's a copycat to try and bill itself as original.  If devs want to copy design, fine, but pay at least token respect.  If it is original, fine, but put up some solid ideas that are different from what's out there now.  If they want to claim genius (and I realize that was fanboi's words, not Claus' - I said if) or something similar, I want to see every one of the problems listed above by several of the posted here addressed first.  

Aside all that, I'd just assume details about games get released.  Fanbois don't do anyone any favors.  They only sell a product to people who don't know better, and can embitter people who do know better about the product.

-Roac
King of Ravens

"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
Dark_MadMax
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Reply #111 on: May 07, 2004, 01:29:33 AM

Quote


it wasnt perfect but still it would have been an excellent game if it was implemented bug free.  And if they didnt have to spend all their time trying to fix the login server/lag/crashing etc etc they may have had time to actually fix those design flaws.

I still played the game hardcore for over a year and enjoyed it even with all its flaws.



 I played it for long time too (since 3.xx beta actually). SB had its moments - I cant argue with  . Some of the most interesting battles I experienced and PvP encounters were in SB.  

 But flaws in game design and implementation  just became more apparten because of long time I spend with SB . -I did not have ended  major techinical problems on corruption  ( occasional sb.exe but nothing major) , but it still didn't keep me in game - gameplay dynamics are just horrid in SB. Combat itself was fun ,template building -the best up to date , but everything else is just poor desing - bad for pvp ,bad for pve ,and which is worse -  unfun in general. I can write long and elaborate post   about  major design flaws (as well as a few  good design decisions they managed to implement) in SB -just don't feel like it now . WP never had any real vision for their game except  - "lets let players build cities and everything else will be magically solved"!


Quote


Firstly, for all we know the design is complete we just dont know the full picture.  But we can make a judgment on what we do see, which IMO is excellent, we just cant make a judgment about how good the game is going to be yet, even if we did assume perfect implementation.

2ndly, no design is going to be complete before public beta testing even happens, thats one reason you beta test, because things that you think look good on paper, turn out to suck.

 In fact you cant even really test things fully until the game releases and there is always the chance to make design changes after release if things dont go as you expect them to.



 Well some things should be play tested and tweaked in beta. But you predict how good desing will turn out even in paper form. - We have enough examples and trends already.


Quote


Making  an open pvp game with full loot and a city building/sieging system is very challenging.  Far more challenging than your average monster bashing MMORPG and a lot of games cant even get that right.


 There is no challenge in making full pvp/full loot rules. -In fact its much more easier then elaborate TEFs in SWG from programmers POV .  Challenge is to make FUN pvp game. Player built strucutres are not necessary for it -  capturing them is enough , full loot is not neccesary either.

PvP game should be designed around providing quality challenging competetive environment  allowing wider variety of playstyles and activiites. Not  around "lets make full loot" ,"let player build structures" - that imho the most important thing 99% of fanboys and ,I bet, many developers do not understand . They all fixated on one feature without seeing full picture - in time of SB hype there was so much noise about how player built cities and full pvp will be panacea to all game problems. In DF rabid "pkers" pray on full loot, no safe zones , no radar .

 So far no game came up with real PvP design (well I know one ,which imho came close , but there is NDA)  . DF devs sounds like they have something like that in mind, but  it could be again all SB syndrom -"lets make full loot/full pvp and we will be all set".

 Thats why I am highly scpetical to games not adressing most important aspects in PvP mmorpg - resources ,sieges , political tools , guild managment tools , travel ,  accountability mechanisms , economy , territory control , casual  play sessions, incentives and goals for different types of players ,etc .etc. -Instead they put something like "full loot/first person perspective/no safe zones/6 races" and dance around that dodging really important questions and leaving the core design  secret all the way to release.
Naithin
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Reply #112 on: May 07, 2004, 04:21:49 AM

Quote
Thats why I am highly scpetical to games not adressing most important aspects in PvP mmorpg - resources ,sieges , political tools , guild managment tools , travel , accountability mechanisms , economy , territory control , casual play sessions, incentives and goals for different types of players ,etc .etc. -Instead they put something like "full loot/first person perspective/no safe zones/6 races" and dance around that dodging really important questions and leaving the core design secret all the way to release.


Well, tis true.. We don't know any specifics about a lot of those things. But Darkfall devs have at least acknowledged that they're aware of the problems/issues, and that there will be 'things' in place to aid/prevent/whatever is nessacery for 'em.

Territory control and resources we do know will be a factor. We don't know precisely how so, or what their importance weighting will be.. But we do know that in certain regions there will be limited number, preplaced clanstones that can be taken over.

Only major example we've been given of that so far, is Trinwood, a small village with a stone quarry, which also was attached with the comment that stone is rather important, as it is the major building material for most buildings.  

There are also going to be other preplaced clan stones in certain dungeon type areas which people can fight for control over. What advantages will they give, we don't know though.

Guild management tools they've also been very strong on. Implementing ingame guild msg boards, voice chat, configurable SMS alerts, tax pannels, character and rank management. I'm sure their's more, but they have stated again and again that they want to give us the tools to make guild management a breeze, and much less of a chore than it has been in past.

Same sorts of things with the other issues raised, and more. Even 3am sieges was raised recently in a devnote on the webpage from Claus, stating that they will be working with the siege system to see what they can do about encouraging them not to occur.

While hell yeah, we lack a lot of specifics, in a lot of areas.. They have at least fronted up to knowing these things are issues, and said that they're trying.

That doesn't garauntee everything will turn out just peachy, particually not immediately. But in my opinion, it's still the best shot we got at present, and the best set of devs available to us, in terms of committment to these factors and working with 'em.

The thing that sets the Razorwax team apart from so many teams in past, is both what make's 'em pretty great, and at the same time, pretty annoying.. It is that they don't tend to tell us anything that isn't already working and functional. If anything ever is presented in a less formal chat as a maybe, it is clearly marked as so. They front up to key issues, even if it might not be what everyone is wanting to hear.

So while I definitely do want a hell of a lot more information than what we have at present, it's good to know that what we do have isn't just fluff.

It really is just a matter of wait and see. Follow it, or don't. It doesn't really make any difference. If their stated release date gets followed up on, we'll know by the end of the year at the latest how it's workin out.
Roac
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Reply #113 on: May 07, 2004, 09:06:15 AM

Quote
The thing that sets the Razorwax team apart from so many teams in past, is both what make's 'em pretty great, and at the same time, pretty annoying.. It is that they don't tend to tell us anything that isn't already working and functional.


Eh, that's not unique to Razorwax.  For that matter, it isn't unique to the MMOG industry.  Companies tend to not disclose a lot about what they're working on before it's nearly done.  Wild speculation leads to fanboi-ism, which leads to dissapointment when the product is released amid grand ideas to a resounding "that's it?  That's what you had us waiting for?".  Think Segway, for an outside the MMOG industry example.  

Nothing against Razorwax, mind you.  I'm personally looking forward to seeing what they have, and comparing what I know about people/design to how well theirs performs - I love the game industry and game design.  Don't care much for the fanbois, because it almost always ends badly with them, and they're so eager to get you to join them in their private hell.

-Roac
King of Ravens

"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
HaemishM
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Reply #114 on: May 07, 2004, 10:18:30 AM

Quote from: Preston
Haemish, I agree that roleplaying will not be a dominant factor in a PvP MMORPG.  But I think it can be A factor.  We played on Deception in Shadowbane and not one of the roleplaying servers.  Darkfall plans to have servers that can handle 10,000 each.  So, in my opinion, it could very well be possible to encounter enough roleplayers to tip the balance in a PvP environment.  Especially if the game structure supports the lore.  WHICH SHADOWBANE DID NOT DO AT ALL!


You are correct. SB did not support the lore.

But do you really think that having one server with about 10x more people on it will mean that roleplaying will play an even bigger part? Roleplaying is a small scale thing; throwing more numbers at it does not make it easier to do, it makes it that much harder. Frankly, the more people you have to lead into battle, the less emphasis you can place on roleplaying. Why? Because as you should know, you will constantly have to step "out of character" just to get people to move the right way. Herding cats is the best description of leading people in MMOG's that I've ever heard.

Roleplaying, IMO, requires PVP, but PVP online does not necessarily foster roleplaying. It fosters GAME playing, i.e. trying to find the min/max combos for maximum pwnage.

Quote from: Naithin
Cos let's face it, in SB, if you didn't own, or at least have access to, a high ranked trainer when you needed it.. You were totally screwed. There was nothing you could do.

In DF, you don't need trainers to that extent. Nor NPC crafters. You can live out of a NPC city without any penalty in these respects.


Actually, on Deception, not being in a city didn't really hurt all that much. There was no shortage of errant PK'ers running around who not only were not totally screwed, they did quite well. Clan Red was one who never owned a city. They just used open cities, or relied on using other guild's cities for what little they needed. Once you reached about 50th level, the benefits of leveling disappeared for all intents and purposes. If you can live without an NPC city (or a PC city) in DF, it's going to be much, much worse. Cities have to mean something for sieging to mean something.

And by mean something, I don't mean that living without a city should be a penalty, per se, though it should. I mean that living with a city should provide such incredible benefits in terms of profits, training, etc. that to do without it would be silly. In SB, you could quickly reach 50, and never really need a city again. Ever. If you don't need a city in DF, you can expect that only the select few will bother with them, or bother with sieging.

EDIT: Don't think of ARAC guilds/clans. That's not the way to picture it. Think ARAC alliances. One guild splits itself into 3 or 4 clans of each race/faction. Each clan of that ARAC alliance wants to make sure they are the be-all end-all of their faction. They use racial PKing as well as sending enemy factions against opposing clans/guilds of their own faction to keep the competing same-faction guilds weak. They fight their own enemy faction allied guilds to practice/train themselves up.

Example: Burning Legion makes an Alfar guild, a Human faction guild, and one other faction (I forget the DF faction names). At first, the BL Alfar guild attacks the BL Human guild to practice how to siege, how to PVP. Then, say CoS's Human faction guild starts to get power in the human faction world. The BL Alfar faction attacks the CoS faction guild, weakening them. Maybe the BL humans help, or maybe the other BL faction guild attacks as well.

Sure, it would take organization. But that's what uber guilds do best.

Mordare
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Reply #115 on: May 07, 2004, 02:19:39 PM

Sorry if this was mentioned before but running an ARAC city won't be all that hard in Darkfall with the proposed alignment system.

All you do is have your city divided up for the seperate factions involved. Either have them joined in a common wall with gates for each faction, or have some space between them with maybe an outer wall to enclose both. Best way to do it would depend alot on NPC agro range, how siege is done.

The mention of the gloomer siege system makes me cringe...i really wish they would refrain from borrowing that idea from SB. If they would just tweak the effectiveness of walls/gates vs the effectiveness and availability of siege machines, and give the defender the edge in those conflicts then it would work out. Other things need to work well also, like guard AI, giving range/cover to those on walls, require transport of all siege equipment/supplies, etc.

As far as 3am sieges, I'm of the opinion that a siege should take a long time to succeed. It should take a long time to build each siege machine. Building one should require alot of lumber that must be harvested at the siege camp, and only highly skilled people who focused on siegecraft should be able to build the best ones. They should be inaccurate, slow to load and fire, highly vulnerable to attack. They should require numerous NPC's or PC's to man them, like 2-3 for a small bolt thrower up to 8-10 for a trebuchet. Cities take a long time and much effort to build, why should game mechanics allow you to destroy one in 4 hours simply because you can't play any longer or you might get bored (/cry). The balance of the siege part of the game should be geared towards stability, not chaos.

I'm a fan of Darkfall but I'm still somewhat wary of how it will actually pan out.  I think that's probably the best thing SB ever did, it taught thousands of gamers to not get too excited about concepts or promises until you actually see them in action.
cevik
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Reply #116 on: May 07, 2004, 02:22:57 PM

Quote from: Mordare

I'm a fan of Darkfall but I'm still somewhat wary of how it will actually pan out.  I think that's probably the best thing SB ever did, it taught thousands of gamers to not get too excited about concepts or promises until you actually see them in action.


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Reply #117 on: May 07, 2004, 03:31:20 PM

Quote
But do you really think that having one server with about 10x more people on it will mean that roleplaying will play an even bigger part? Roleplaying is a small scale thing; throwing more numbers at it does not make it easier to do, it makes it that much harder. Frankly, the more people you have to lead into battle, the less emphasis you can place on roleplaying. Why? Because as you should know, you will constantly have to step "out of character" just to get people to move the right way. Herding cats is the best description of leading people in MMOG's that I've ever heard.


Well, it really depends on what they really mean by RP.  You're right if they are talking about RP as people playing out some fantasy character with "thee"s and "thou"s and what not.  But if all they want to do is make it natural within the game for people playing Alfars to go over and invade Humans instead of fighting amungst themselves, then I think RP (in that sense) is totally viable and infact is easily fostered within a game like DF (if the implementation is not dome SB-style).
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Reply #118 on: May 07, 2004, 03:36:37 PM

Quote from: Virtra
But if all they want to do is make it natural within the game for people playing Alfars to go over and invade Humans instead of fighting amungst themselves, then I think RP (in that sense) is totally viable and infact is easily fostered within a game like DF (if the implementation is not dome SB-style).


Alright, this has to come to a stop. If I read another freaking post that implies someone has played Darkfall and in fact has not, I will start swinging an axe.

You have NO CLUE if RP can be fostered in Darkfall. It's just that simple, I don't know how you got your ass to type, but this shit has to end - here and now. I know you put the 'if the implementation' part after it, but it still doesn't excuse the assumption.

Any gameplay questions about Darkfall should be directed to Claus himself. We have a gaming discussion forum where you all can go crazy discussing the new shiny and how fucking great it will be.
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Reply #119 on: May 07, 2004, 07:39:09 PM

Quote
...then I think RP (in that sense) is totally viable and infact is easily fostered within a game like DF (if the implementation is not done SB-style).


Uh, troll?  Where did I imply that DF WILL foster RP?  

I said it COULD foster RP.  So unless you're saying that its impossible for DF to foster RP as i defined it, then you only posted to flame me.  And if you do, in fact, think this then it is YOU who are assuming something about DF, not me.

If you had any reading comprehension what so ever, you would have understood this.
Mordare
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Reply #120 on: May 07, 2004, 08:48:28 PM

Quote
a game like DF


Remember...Darkfall isn't a game yet.

It's a FAQ, a collection of quotes from message boards, and some screenshots. Nothing more.
Virtra
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Reply #121 on: May 07, 2004, 09:21:55 PM

...so just replace "a game like DF" with "a game design philosophy like that of DF's."

...
schild
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Reply #122 on: May 07, 2004, 09:25:33 PM

See, now you're getting defensive. Realize that you did say:

Quote
is totally viable and infact is easily fostered within a game like DF


Don't try to make it seem less fanboish by telling us how we should have interpreted it.
schild
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Reply #123 on: May 07, 2004, 09:34:57 PM

This thread has run it's course. It will remain here as a symbol of what happens when fanboi's decide to stalk their developers.

New Thread with new shiny rules: here.
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