Pictures from Iraq.

[Fabricated]

I'm not really trying to make a statement for one side or the other. Just thought these pictures were interesting for a lack of better words.

http://home.wi.rr.com/davef/iraq.htm

[Censorship]

I don't want to sound all Tin-Foily Hatty, but I would almost swear some of those images were man handled by Photoshop.

[Shavnir]

Open 'em up and stick them at 1600% then.  Unless they were professionally manhandled there's bound to be a few stray pixels here and there :)  I don't have the time to check.  Pretty disturbing stuff though.

[Hanzii]

I don't want to sound all Tin-Foily Hatty, but I would almost swear some of those images were man handled by Photoshop.

Which? And why?
They look more or less like they're taken by a soldier, they have that sightseeing feel to them (as opposed to something a pro photographer would take).
They're from an invaded country. They show dead (Iraqi) people and destroyed vehicles... which is a daily occurence in Iraq, so why go through the bother of photoshopping them?
We don't get the exact numbers, but with superior training and technology we know that whenever the news reports 1 high profile coalition death, theres probably 1-100 dead Iraqis we don't hear about... why go to the trouble of faking it?

[Daydreamer]

We don't get the exact numbers, but with superior training and technology we know that whenever the news reports 1 high profile coalition death, theres probably 1-100 dead Iraqis we don't hear about... why go to the trouble of faking it?

Do try to check your numbers.  Its more along the order of 12-14 to 1, according to Iraqbodycount.com.  Whether thats good or bad, and how much if it is our direct doing vs. the Baathists and insurgents, and how many are innocent is well beyond me.

The photos do seem legit to my untrained eye though.  I particularly 'liked', if thats the right word, the picture of the dead boy with two dozen or so bullet wounds, and the one with the round candy shaped landmines.  Something about how casually extreme they are is just striking.  I.e. a boy with three gunshots is a tragedy, but a boy with a a few dozen is darkly comedic.

[Big Gulp]

Throw the book at 'em.  These jackasses need to visit Leavenworth for a while just to set an example.

For Christ's sake, there are guys getting their asses shot at, and these yahoos are completely undermining what they're doing.  Goofing off and screwing around is one thing, but this is just sadistic horeshit.  I have zero sympathy.

[Hanzii]

Do try to check your numbers.  Its more along the order of 12-14 to 1, according to Iraqbodycount.com.  Whether thats good or bad, and how much if it is our direct doing vs. the Baathists and insurgents, and how many are innocent is well beyond me.

My point was, that whether they're innocent bystanders or not (or killed by Iraqis or collateral damage... to use a tasteless euphemism) doesn't matter - we allready know that more iraqis die every day in Iraq, so there's really no need to go through the Photoshop scherade.
Why doctor something to show what is allready well documented?
It was a response to the beginning tinfoil hattery above my post.

[Fabricated]

I guess the pictures are copyrighted.

Heh. I wonder what the people in the pictures have to say about that. Was interesting while it lasted though.

[Hanzii]

I guess the pictures are copyrighted.

Heh. I wonder what the people in the pictures have to say about that. Was interesting while it lasted though.

All pictures are copyrighted.
Whether that right is enforced is another matter - but no matter the subject, the photographers always holds copyright.
(If the pictures are of illegal subjects, he's not allowed to sell/use the photos for other reasons, but that doesn't strip away his copyright)

[Foix]

In the current (and completely unscientific) poll on CNN's website, 44% of respondents say that torture is sometimes a justifiable interrogation technique.

[Big Gulp]

In the current (and completely unscientific) poll on CNN's website, 44% of respondents say that torture is sometimes a justifiable interrogation technique.

I agree, in certain circumstances.  If it'll save lives, then yeah, I wouldn't hesitate.  For sheer sadistic, get your rocks off pleasure?  No way in hell.

[Foix]

Well, that is probably one of the things that will be determined in the coming weeks: were the soldiers in question instructed by military intelligence to behave as they did for the sake of breaking the Iraqi detainees (regardless of the fact that they may indeed have enjoyed themselves), or did they simply take it upon themselves to have some 'fun' at their expense?

Personally, I've usually been opposed to torture for the sake of interrogation, and not for humanitarian reasons. The information elicited is simply not reliable unless it can be materially corroborated. There is an additional consideration in Iraq, of course: if torture is going to be used, it's going to have to be hushed up a hell of a lot better than it has been so far--provided that this incident is indeed a matter of interrogation rather than sadism--because the Coalition is going to have to walk on eggshells if it wants even an outside chance of convicing the Iraqi people that it is working for their betterment. Balancing that with the fact that large parts of Iraq are still effectively war zones and require an entirely different mindset hasn't been easy to say the least.

On an unrelated note, I'm sure everyone's noticed that Bremer is finally doing what the Iraq experts told him he should have done way back when major combat operations were declared over: make use of the considerably portion of the Iraqi Army that had no significant ties to Saddam Hussein, instead of dismissing it en masse and thereby causing all sorts of problems (Coalition manpower shortages, increased resentment against the foreign 'invader,' lots of unemployed and disgruntled Iraqis with military training). There's naturally some worry about the sort of response many Iraqis will have to rearming Saddam-era military forces, in addition to the question of their political role in post-Coalition Iraq, but there's no way in hell Iraq is going to form a viable defensive force without them. I'm still a doom-monger regarding the future prospect of a single unified Iraqi state, but this overdue decision will keep the place together a while longer.

EDIT: Fixed a few spelling/grammar mistakes.

[Big Gulp]

Coalition manpower shortages, increased resentment against the foreign 'invader,' lots of unemployed and disgruntled Iraqis with military training

Well, one of the problems is that unless you've been there you just have no comprehension of the level of corruption present in Iraqi (and Arab, for that matter) society.  The command was entering an area where you just frankly don't know who to trust, the "Iraqi exile community" included.  You're talking tribal and ethnic divisions, mafia-like societies, and all sorts of different imams grabbing for power.

To this day they're still rooting out snitches in Iraqi police units who're turning in the other members to Saddam's old guard and Islamists.  Shit, being an Iraqi cop is probably one of the most dangerous jobs I can imagine, and for that reason most of 'em don't want their identities getting out.  Imagine that kind of clusterfuck on an armywide basis.

[UD_Delt]

Well, that is probably one of the things that will be determined in the coming weeks: were the soldiers in question instructed by military intelligence to behave as they did for the sake of breaking the Iraqi detainees (regardless of the fact that they may indeed have enjoyed themselves), or did they simply take it upon themselves to have some 'fun' at their expense?

For any of you interested in psychology the whole Iraqi prison abuse scandal is amazingly similar to the Stanford Prison Experiment run by Philip Zimbardo. You can read about it http://www.prisonexp.org/">here.

It's going to be difficult to decide how to share the blame. I think history and psychology have already shown us what happens when your average person is thrust into a situation like that. There should definately be recourse for what those guards did but there also needs to be recourse for the failed chain of command that should have been giving these MPs the proper training and leadership to deal with this situation.

[Riggswolfe]

FWIW I think the soldiers were "just following orders". I also think they will be sent to prison, along with a few officers. I have mixed feelings. My first thought on seeing these images was also of that study at Stanford. The problem is, I do believe in accountability. I'm the type of person that if you're 12 and kill a person I think your ass needs to be strapped in the chair. I also think if you're a nazi prison guard, just following orders doesn't excuse you.

The biggest problem out of this is that it suddenly calls our moral superiority into question. I almost gurantee more soldiers will die because of this.

[Alluvian]

The biggest problem out of this is that it suddenly calls our moral superiority into question. I almost gurantee more soldiers will die because of this.

Hard to say.  It will be one more reason among many that they still want to kill us (military and civilian).  No way to say if this one even will push someone over the edge to start firing guns or blowing things (themselves included) up.  Anyone who sees this and decides to go kill some americans was pretty damn close to killing americans before as well (or already there and this is just a convenient excuse).

Not sure how much we will end up hearing about it.  Pretty closed doors in military trials, although maybe they can/will make exceptions when publicity of punishment would do more good than secrecy.  Even if they punish the wrong people.

I still found it amusing when one of the guys in the temporary ruling iraqi council said something to the effect of "Don't you americans know what torture is?  That was not torture."

[Riggswolfe]

Well, it's not true torture. Though what they said does make you wonder, something to the effect that they were ordered to prepare them for later interogation. I'm a strong believer that if you sink to the enemies level you become the enemy. I'm also a strong believer that if you do something like this, you don't pose for pictures in front of the evidence.

While I agree with your idea that if it provokes more violence that that person was pretty close anyway (essentially the same argument I use against violence in videogames/tv/movies causing rl violence.). However, I do think that if it pushed even a few more over the edge, and a few more of our guys and girls die then it is a bad thing. That and bluntly, it has set us back politically and diplomatically quite alot. About as much as Bush's foreign policy in general has.

Man I bet Colin Powell tears his hair out when noone is looking. I also bet Bush heard this news and went "well fuck. Kerry's gonna love this."

[Alrindel]

Well, it's not true torture.

I cordially invite you to read the complete report by Major General Taguba and an excerpt from the International Red Cross report and then explain why in your opinion guards beating, pistol-whipping, raping and sodomizing, suffocating, siccing attack dogs on their prisoners, immobilizing them for days at a time with restraints so tight they caused lesions and permanent nerve damage - all these things do not constitute "true torture".  This is ignoring all the psychological coercion, which according to the ICRC observers was causing symptoms including "concentration difficulties, memory problems, verbal expression difficulties, incoherent speech, acute anxiety reactions, abnormal behaviour and suicidal tendencies" - and in the case of at least one prisoner they observed, reduced him to unresponsive catatonia.

Rush Limbaugh's perverted fantasies not withstanding, it was and is torture.  If American soldiers had been subjected to this, the same assholes currently trying to dismiss it all as "hijinks" would be screaming for the perpetrators to be prosecuted as war criminals.  The crowning gem on this monument to American Justice is that the vast majority of the detainees at Abu Ghraib were guilty of nothing more than being male, Iraqi, and in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[DarkDryad]

Everything you mentioned could be totaly legal as far as restrint went you do not know what the situation was at the time. If prisoner x tries to escape you have a choice shoot him or pistol whip him id say the pistol whipping is the lesser of the two and the correct action. I have no idea what happened there and neither do you but I'll qualify this by saying  some of the allegations are quite bad but to classify psyc warfare techniques with the ripping off of fingernails and the use of branding etc etc as equal tortures is way wacked.

[DarkDryad]

After reading the full report you do realise that a lot of the most serious allegations are made by the detainees dont you. I mean these guys would never lie at all I'm sure as they are so honorable and whatnot. Noone in prison is guilty dontcha know.

a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

So sadistic I may cry.

b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

Wong but not torture

c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for
photographing;

Again wrong but not torture.

d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

Nakedness seems to be a severe and traumatizing form of torture.

e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

Someone call Human Rights Watch!!!!

f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

Again wrong but hardly torture.

g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

Ok yeah got em on this one.

h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

This one MIGHT be mental cruelty but unless they shot the juice to him no torture.

i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

Ok so we now know the reported rape of a 15yr old didnt happen at athe hands of a serviceman. And yet again not torture.

j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

Particularly inventive means of humiliation based on thier sex roles but not torture.

k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

Ok charge this fucker with rape as Im sure she wasnt all up for a booty call.

l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

Charge the person/people involved with this one case where the detainee was bitten UNLESS they had ordered him to do something and he failed to comply. We use working dogs on our own populace folks its not torture.

m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.
The dead have suffered. While tasteless far from torture.

Ok the below allegations are taken from detainees so I take em with a grain of salt except for the ones that match up with the above.

8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

Ok lets be real here

b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

Its called a show of force people happens every day

c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

OMG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

Needs a charge and closest to torture so far

e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

Threats  of violence ok threats of rape to far.

f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

Never says if the MP has training to do this. These are reservists after all hell he may be a nurse or something irl or *gasp* had medic training. Not  a very serious offense in my book but ymmv
 
g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

If it happened hang the fuck.


My main point here is while some MINOR abuse happened with a few being major calling it sadistic torture is kinda way off in left field here. Bamboo under the nails, standing in a bucket of water while voltage is induced to your body, flaying of skin, etc etc these are sadistic tortures. Please people make a distinction.

[Alrindel]

Everything you mentioned could be totaly legal as far as restrint went you do not know what the situation was at the time.

CONCLUSION

1. (U) Several US Army Soldiers have committed egregious acts and grave breaches of international law at Abu Ghraib/BCCF and Camp Bucca, Iraq. Furthermore, key senior leaders in both the 800th MP Brigade and the 205th MI Brigade failed to comply with established regulations, policies, and command directives in preventing detainee abuses at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and at Camp Bucca during the period August 2003 to February 2004.

After reading the full report you do realise that a lot of the most serious allegations are made by the detainees dont you. I mean these guys would never lie at all I'm sure as they are so honorable and whatnot.

7. (U) These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements. In reaching my findings, I have carefully considered the pre-existing statements of the following witnesses and suspects (ANNEX 26):

(list of US soldiers)

8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

(list of prisoners and former prisoners whose statements were considered credible and/or backed by hard evidence, ie. ALL THE FUCKING PICTURES AND VIDEOTAPES.)

[DarkDryad]

Some of the stuff in this doccument is freakin hillarious.

b. Some Soldiers wrote poems and other sayings on their helmets and soft caps.

OH NOES!


7). (U) CPT Damaris Morales, Commander, 770th MP Company
• GOMOR from BG Karpinski, Commander 800th MP Brigade,
on 20 August 2003, for failing to properly train his Soldiers
(Soldier had negligent discharge of M-16 while exiting his
vehicle, round went into fuel tank); filed locally.

Anyone whos used an M16 knows these things will go off if you drop them its a flaw in the design and they are charging him with failure to train his soldiers.. WTF.

8). (U) CSM Roy Clement, Command Sergeant Major, 800th MP Brigade
• GOMOR and Relief for Cause from BG Janis Karpinski,
Commander 800th MP Brigade, for fraternization and
dereliction of duty for fraternizing with junior enlisted soldiers
within his unit; GOMOR officially filed and he was removed
from the CSM list.

God forbid a CSM (Command Seargent Major) actually get along and all with troops under them...*gasp*


5). (U) MAJ Stacy Garrity, Finance Officer, 800th MP Brigade
• GOMOR from LTG McKiernan, Commander CFLCC, on 25
May 2003, for violation of CENTCOM General Order #1,
consuming alcohol with an NCO; filed locally.

Nooooo not a drink!


d. (U) Saluting of officers was sporadic and not enforced. LTC Robert P.
Walters, Jr., Commander of the 165th Military Intelligence Battalion (Tactical
Exploitation), testified that the saluting policy was enforced by COL Pappas
for all MI personnel, and that BG Karpinski approached COL Pappas to
reverse the saluting policy back to a no-saluting policy as previously existed.

Regs state you dont salute in open areas during a time of combat. Kinda clues the snipers in as to who gets shot first and whatnot. ... Morons.


I find that individual Soldiers within the 800th MP Brigade and the 320th
Battalion stationed throughout Iraq had very little contact during their tour of duty
with either LTC (P) Phillabaum or BG Karpinski.

Someone show me ANY general officer who has contact with the soldiers below them. Thats not how a chain of command works and whatnot.

[Riggswolfe]

Well if all that is true, then yes, heads need to roll. Though, I'm a little curious how a website got ahold of a classified document this quickly when even major media outlets haven't.

As for Rush Limbaugh, he's the GOP spokesperson so of course he's trying to downplay things.

[DarkDryad]

Im not saying none of it happened or that it wasnt wrong im sayin ITS NOT FUCKING TORTURE. The fucking media has been going on about the sadistic torture going on inside that prison. Abuse yeah torture fuck no. Ask John McCain what torture is im sure his definition will be substantially different from whats happened here.

[DarkDryad]

Well if all that is true, then yes, heads need to roll. Though, I'm a little curious how a website got ahold of a classified document this quickly when even major media outlets haven't.

As for Rush Limbaugh, he's the GOP spokesperson so of course he's trying to downplay things.

Its public . Almost any doccument can be gotten though FOIA.  CNN had it for a while but i cant seem to find it now.

[Alrindel]

Im not saying none of it happened or that it wasnt wrong im sayin ITS NOT FUCKING TORTURE.

Yes, but you're wrong.

International law defines torture thusly: "For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."

Yeah, all things considered I'd rather do nine months in Abu Ghraib than go through, say, what Dianna Ortiz suffered at the hands of the Guatemalan military, where they cut her with knives and then raped the wounds.  Nevertheless, what those Iraqi prisoners experienced meets the definition of "torture", which the United States has officially denounced (if other people are doing it).

http://www.state.gov/p/io/rls/fs/2002/14901.htm

The United States' Commitment To Fight Torture

The U.S. Commitment: The United States condemns unequivocally the despicable practice of torture. We have fought to eliminate it around the world. Political will is critical. The United States has led international efforts to put pressure on governments to publicly condemn torture; enact legislation; investigate and prosecute abusive officials; train law enforcement officers and medical personnel, and provide compensation and rehabilitation for victims.

[Riggswolfe]

Its public . Almost any doccument can be gotten though FOIA.  CNN had it for a while but i cant seem to find it now.

If it's public then how is it classified? I was of the belief that classified meant at the least, that the public doesn't get to see it.

I have to agree, by the definition of torture, what these people went through was torture. It wasn't extreme torture of the pulling fingernails off variety, but it was still torture.

Man what a mess.

[DarkDryad]

Cassified means it has a classification on it but its not secret or topsecret etc etc. Classified can also mean for public dissemination. In this instance I think it was supposed to be kept out of the public eye but news it existed was leaked and thus the FOIA request came in and since there was no difinative classification they had to release it as a matter of law.

The key word in my argument being sadistic, Like I said they were abused  call it minor torture or whatever yeah it happened and Im sure many ballsacks will be permanetly affixed to a wall for it.

This now goes into the realm of just who was the bright bulb that decided the thing to do was photograph it. This person should be killed if for no other reason intense stupidity.

[HaemishM]

Look, let's not get into the semantics of what is and isn't torture. Here is the bottom line.

We are supposed to be better than that. We removed a dictator partly because he was a cruel and sadistic man who ran torture chambers in the very same prison. Our leaders have publicly proclaimed an end to the torture chambers of the previous regime.

In short, by our own words, we are supposed to be better than that. How can we claim the moral superiority in Iraq when such a systemic abuse of detainees is not only going on, but seems to be actively encouraged by our military intelligence apparatus in direct conflict with our own policies and procedures for military police?

[Flashman]

Look, let's not get into the semantics of what is and isn't torture. Here is the bottom line.

We are supposed to be better than that. We removed a dictator partly because he was a cruel and sadistic man who ran torture chambers in the very same prison. Our leaders have publicly proclaimed an end to the torture chambers of the previous regime.

In short, by our own words, we are supposed to be better than that. How can we claim the moral superiority in Iraq when such a systemic abuse of detainees is not only going on, but seems to be actively encouraged by our military intelligence apparatus in direct conflict with our own policies and procedures for military police?

You're right. But we show that we are better than that by investigating what went wrong, punishing the guilty and seeing that it doesn't happen again.

That's the difference.

[Foix]

A corpse, wounded prisoners and some more forced sodomy: members of the Senate saw the remaining images of Iraqi detainees today; still no consensus on whether or not soldiers were ordered to torture by their superiors or chose to do so of their own accord.

[Riggswolfe]

The more of this that comes out the harder it is to tell myself that we're the good guys. I know it's an isolated incident, but still, these guys for the most part weren't terrorists.

[eldaec]

still no consensus on whether or not soldiers were ordered to torture by their superiors or chose to do so of their own accord.

Interesting how much media time this question is getting at the moment.

I'm not sure how relevant it is when coming up with corrective action.

Since certainly I'd always take the view that anyone an individual's chain of command gets to be responsible for the individual''s actions regardless of who gave what orders. Equally, if, as some have suggested, civilian agencies or interrogators were involved; it doesn't really matter, prisoners count as being under military protection.

Fundamentally this whole affair prevents the US military being able to claim in any international setting, that it is able to hold prisoners reliably for any extended period. And if the US government wants it's claims about it's war aims to be taken seriously (espeicially by arab opinion), I don't see how it can continue to run prisons outside the US (either in Iraq or Cuba) without at the very least regular inspection (and public reports) by some non-American organisation.

Personally I remain entirely in favour of the invasion, and don't really have much time for a lot of the crap talked about oil or about how terrible it is that certain areas of middle class iraq are worse off now that large swathes of the country are not being terrorised by Hussien. But if the US doesn't plan to have it's entire armed forces camped out in the middle east till doomsday, then the US government has to accept that it's the perception of those who disagree with it that counts, not the perception of those willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

[Comstar]

You're right. But we show that we are better than that by investigating what went wrong, punishing the guilty and seeing that it doesn't happen again.

That's the difference.

There is no invistagtion about Gitmo, and things like holding people's head under water and making belive thier going to drown seems to have occured there.  

BushCo and said what the rules are. There are few, if any.


No one has been charged at Gitmo. No one is accoutable. Anyone can be above the law, because Bush says so.  It will be interesting when you get a new president, even if it's NOT Kerry, who decides to declassify what IS happening.

[Big Gulp]

Someone show me ANY general officer who has contact with the soldiers below them. Thats not how a chain of command works and whatnot.

Bingo.  The only time you ever see general officers is during unit inspections (rare, this is usually conducted by the battalion/brigade commander) or when they come out to some field problem for an hour to give a weak ass pep talk.

Generals are for the most part extremely removed from the day to day realities, and I agree, a lot of those charges you brought up are most definitely for penny ante bullshit.  Not saluting?  We'd get our asses chewed off something fierce for saluting an officer in a country where weapons fire isn't exactly a rarity.  A major charged with having a drink with an NCO?  It's probably him and his sergeant major, and seriously, unless he's drunk this really only deserves a quick talking to.  Especially considering that for a major, something like that on their record pretty much ends their career.

Personally, it sounds like this is one shitty unit to belong to.