Compilation of things that may come

[OcellotJenkins]

I'm embarrased to say where I found this link ...*cough* vn *cough*

Future Expansion Areas

[Chenghiz]

That's really cool, I like that whiteboard shot. I noticed this a while ago.. http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/downloads/wallpapers/wallpaper30.html

If you look at the snatch of map that's visible next to the Tauren, it doesn't look like any part of the current map, and the letters don't lend themselves to Undermine (which brought it to mind) or Northrend (which wouldn't be there anyway.)

[Fabricated]

Lots of 20 man+ level 60 raids. Ugh. More low-mid level content plzkthx.

[Dren]

Lots of 20 man+ level 60 raids. Ugh. More low-mid level content plzkthx.

I second that motion!

[OcellotJenkins]

The Caverns of Time sound fairly interesting to me.  Sort of reminds me of the light/dark versions of Hyrule in the SNES Zelda.  Might be fun exploring some of the ruined sites like Stromguard back when they were thriving cities.

I'm with you on the raid instances.  Most of those I'll probably never see.  Additional continents/outdoor zones would be much better for my playstyle.

[OcellotJenkins]

More Expansion Speculation

[Dren]

As long as we are voicing our wants for expansion:

I am going to continue to support the thought of more casual player content.  On top of the raid content, please work on 1-5 player group content as well.  In fact, I'd love to see all of the instances be scalable much like other games these days.

Obviously, the drops and mobs would have to be scaled, but as said before, as a casual player, I won't see more than 50% of these high end content additions.  I haven't seen 50% of what is already there and probably never will.

I'll resign myself to the knowledge that if I don't spend 5 hours raiding I won't get the shiniest items, but at least let me experience these instances.  I feel so disconnected from the game lore since I do not participate in the major raiding areas that I start to lose interest in the game itself.

I did get into a small raid group for Scholo for 2 hours on Saturday and got absolutely nothing from it and they hadn't gotten anywhere yet before I had to log.  Further evidence that I'll be left out of this large chunk of the game.

[Sogrinaugh]

Don't raid scholo.  Its a 5-man instance and this latest patch reduced the # of pulls for 5-man groups to further drive home that point.  All a 10-man does is trivialize the bossfights, which is dumb since thats the funnest part.

Scholo is actually a fun dungeon now, though you may still have some problems with Jandice and her cellar.

[Dren]

Don't raid scholo.  Its a 5-man instance and this latest patch reduced the # of pulls for 5-man groups to further drive home that point.  All a 10-man does is trivialize the bossfights, which is dumb since thats the funnest part.

Scholo is actually a fun dungeon now, though you may still have some problems with Jandice and her cellar.

I know.  It would have been more fun with a 5-man.  However, I'd probably never get the older raiders to figure that out.  They all seemed perfectly comfortable killing everything with absolute ease and getting nothing for it.

Next time?  I'll require it to be 5-man only or I'll just keep solo'ing someplace else.

[Fabricated]

All I can say is fuck the catasses. We don't need 500 uber-raid dungeons with Orange/Red level loot, we need WAY more level 10-50 instances and content that require 5-10 people at the MAX to enjoy. The more people I have to group with the less fun I have.

[Margalis]

You don't really need to scale the drops, just the drop rate on those drops, if you want to keep things "fair" A 5 man group isntance should drop a super item 1/8 as often as a 40 man group instance.

[MrHat]

You don't really need to scale the drops, just the drop rate on those drops, if you want to keep things "fair" A 5 man group isntance should drop a super item 1/8 as often as a 40 man group instance.

It's so easy.  And would make the game about 20x more fun.  Fuck you Tigole.  Fuck you in your EQ Asshole.

[Chenghiz]

I'll be facing the "join the uber raid guild or actually have fun in current guild" quandary soon. Unfortunately, most of the 60s in my guild left for the uberguild. We still communicate via ventrilo, but they seem to be in their own little raid world now and it's difficult for me and my friends to get instance groups together.

One of my friends who just recently hit 60 just couldn't find anyone to help him gear up for MC, so he up and quit the game - but he's the impatient sort. I'm hoping at some point they'll raise th level cap or something and let casual players like myself get some shineys without spending hours a day raiding some ooberdungeon (or PvPing to the bone).

[Threash]

I don't see why you need any more lvl 1-59 instances, you have way more than you need already.  Two 40 person raid instances is more than enough also, three if you count onyxia.  Whats needed is more strath/scholo/brs level content, and something to bridge the gap between ubrs and MC.  You already have instances for every single level starting at around 16 all the way to 59, more would be simply wasted content.

[SurfD]

Another thing we need more of is low level Item Sets.  Why is it that the only sub level 50 item sets are Defias Leather (Rogue) and Vambrace of the Viper (Druid), and I guess the Scarlet monastary chain stuff?

Having some Mage, Priest, or Warrior themed instances at low levels would be nice.

And really, they COULD use another low level instance or two.  Just for some variety.

[Margalis]

What's the point of low level item sets? By the time you collect them they'll be outdated.

In FFXI gear is very important at all levels and gear also tends to last a while, at least some gear. It's not unusual to be wearing items 10 levels below you, and 10 levels takes some time to accrue. I don't see what the point would be in a game like WoW where the levelling is significantly faster.

Also, low-level instances and smaller raids really aren't related. I think the problem many people have is that the end game consists of mega-groups, whereas the rest of the game is pretty solo-friendly, which is pretty silly. The idea of fighting in a battle with 40 other people really doesn't appeal to me *at all*, and I think many people here feel the same way.

[Ironwood]

I'm getting fed up (Totally) with ten men raids in a guild of really good people.  The bickering over loot and the slow pace of what SHOULD be easy phone-in fights is really annoying.

I CANNOT IMAGINE trying to do this with more people.  The idea of a 40 man group that isn't in the BG makes me physically ill.

[Calantus]

I'm getting fed up (Totally) with ten men raids in a guild of really good people.  The bickering over loot and the slow pace of what SHOULD be easy phone-in fights is really annoying.

I CANNOT IMAGINE trying to do this with more people.  The idea of a 40 man group that isn't in the BG makes me physically ill.

Ouch, I hear you there. When I was in my own guild we had MC cleared up to Rag, had downed Onyxia and Kazzak. Nobody had less than 3 epics... and yet we wiped 3 times before even hitting Rend in UBRS the day after a full-MC-clear which only gave us one wipe (someone went LD vs Baron... GG). Then when we were keying up for BWL when it came out we had a run where we wiped 7 times. Seven goddamn times, TWICE on GENERAL DRAKK. It took us something like 5 hours. Seriously the 40-man raids really messed us up. We used todo 5/10/15 men runs in our sleep and now everyone is so lazy and stupid because the raids require very little from the individual and they don't respect the other instances. It was so fucking annoying.

[Dren]

You don't really need to scale the drops, just the drop rate on those drops, if you want to keep things "fair" A 5 man group isntance should drop a super item 1/8 as often as a 40 man group instance.

Yep, that's what I meant.  Scale the drop rate.  This would fit my playstyle perfectly.

[Dren]

I don't see why you need any more lvl 1-59 instances, you have way more than you need already.  Two 40 person raid instances is more than enough also, three if you count onyxia.  Whats needed is more strath/scholo/brs level content, and something to bridge the gap between ubrs and MC.  You already have instances for every single level starting at around 16 all the way to 59, more would be simply wasted content.

We may not need 5 more instances for the lower levels, but I'd like to see more.  I've been having fun going back through the game making new alts, but each time I do it I find it less appealing just due to the lack of variety in content.  It would be nice to have a slightly larger amount of choices while leveling.

I agree with the rest of your point. 

For me it is simple, put more content in but make it so that all playstyles can enjoy it.  This trend to only reward those that join big 40 man raids is totally leaving me (and I'm guessing many others) out in the cold pretty quickly.

The only thing keeping me playing so far is leveling different races/classes and enjoying the content that made the game good.  Why does all that have to stop when you hit 60?  Once I have 4-6 characters at that level, what's left?  At this point, I imagine it is the next MMO to hit the market.

You would think Blizzard would notice that their success has been largely due to catering to more casual players than ever before.  Why cut their success short for the sake of the catasses?

[Zetor]

Yeah.. my doomsday prediction is that 2 years from now [when tier 8 equipment will be the norm], casual guilds won't exist anymore in wow.

The item gap is already huge between ubrs-level stuff and MC stuff.. from what I've seen of BWL loot, oooh boy. Shaman arcane power trinket? Better invest in a good bubblehearth macro now! And that's just tier 2, blizzard hinted at there being 9 tiers in the end.

An average joe like myself [who's a semi-hardcore player in an old, casual guild] won't ever get to MC -- this is not a matter of difficulty, it's about numbers. Teaming up with another guild sounds like a good idea in theory, except that it doesn't actually, ya know, work. And even if by some miracle the 2-guild alliance survives the 40 wipes and bazillion loot disputes [ZOMG azuresong mageblade hunter weapon lolllllllllz], they'll now have to outfit everyone in MC gear to have a chance in BWL. And so on. You want to pvp against folks with full tier 9? Tough shit, enjoy being 1-shot fodder. Oh wait, we'll have level 59-60 blues from Zul'gurub.... 2-shot fodder.
[I wish I was exaggerating, but I've fought against people with full MC equipment. Even though they only had a 'noobie' weapon like the earthshaker, I didn't stand a chance.. half of my spells got resisted right away, the other half didn't do nearly enough damage. And he stunlocked me to death. He was a friggin' warrior! :P]

The alternative? PvP gear? Yeah, let me go and spend 16 hours a day in WSG, losing over and over again against a guild that only does WSG and nothing else and already has a full rank 16 pvp set [or just a 10-man from your average raiding guild kitted out in MC gear].

This rant was brought to you by the letter "FU" and the "Furor needs a hydrochloride enema" foundation.


Edit [to reduce the Vault Quotient of this post]: I believe that the naga and the draenei along with the blood elves will be the third faction in an expansion... maybe the goblins as well. Maelstrom and the Outland could make up their 'home continent'.. of course the Outland would only be accessible once the dark portal in blasted lands is opened. I also have a suspicion that the recent change of making Theramore its own faction [allied to the Alliance] hints at possible splinter factions / subfactions later on.



-- Z.

[SurfD]

Actually, the only real problem you get fighting people in full MC gear is that you are fucked if you are a fire mage (GG 250+ fire resist and 100 damage crit pyroblasts), happen to run into their main tank (our guild Main Tank has soo much +Deffence gear that appearently it is impossible to get a crit strike against him in mele, and nice protection spec makes him take so little damage it is laughable)  or one of their rogues (backstab/eviscerate from an MC weapon is nasty).

Other classes dont reallly benefit super much from MC gear (good going Arcanist +15 seconds to Polymorph that doesent work in  PvP).

Now BWL sets, thats a different story.

[El Gallo]

Apologism ahoy!

I'm getting fed up (Totally) with ten men raids in a guild of really good people.  The bickering over loot and the slow pace of what SHOULD be easy phone-in fights is really annoying.
I CANNOT IMAGINE trying to do this with more people.  The idea of a 40 man group that isn't in the BG makes me physically ill.

The solution is to guild with really good people who are really good people, rather than really good people who bicker constantly over loot and take 15 years to clear shit that should be blown through trivially.

Yeah.. my doomsday prediction is that 2 years from now [when tier 8 equipment will be the norm], casual guilds won't exist anymore in wow.

The item gap is already huge between ubrs-level stuff and MC stuff.. from what I've seen of BWL loot, oooh boy. Shaman arcane power trinket? Better invest in a good bubblehearth macro now! And that's just tier 2, blizzard hinted at there being 9 tiers in the end.

I presume they will try to keep the gap large but not overwhelming by constantly adding new 5-10 mans along with the raid targets.  The latest & greatest 5-10 man gear will be behind the latest and greatest 40 man gear, but not overwhelmingly so.  Hell, they already had to buff the hell out of MC gear because Dire Maul gear utterly obliterated it.  "Soon" (in Blizzard land) there'll be 5 mans spitting out stuff equivalent to MC so you'll only have BWL vs MC type disparity (which is small), and then when Next Uber Raid is released it will be followed by Next Uber 5-10 Man, which will spit out BWL-quality stuff.  This, combined with regular ole mudflation which will soon allow 6 monkeys hitting random keys to kill Ragnaros, should keep the difference reasonable enough.

This model mostly worked for EQ, until Luclin (and especially PoP) came around and they forgot about the whole "put loot comparable to the best stuff from the last expansion in places where it is easy for single-groupers to get in this expansion" part, and the differences between groupers and raiders became so enormous that they could not realistically group together again in a mutually challenging environment.  Blizz will probably fuck it up too, but in theory it isn't so bad.

We may not need 5 more instances for the lower levels, but I'd like to see more.  I've been having fun going back through the game making new alts, but each time I do it I find it less appealing just due to the lack of variety in content.  It would be nice to have a slightly larger amount of choices while leveling.

More is (usually) better but I have a hard time seeing this as an effective use of resources.  My sense is that a good number of the lower-end instances languish unused most of the time already.  I mean, how many people really hit up Blackfathom Depths or Razorfen Downs? 

group isntance should drop a super item 1/8 as often as a 40 man group instance.

It's so easy.  And would make the game about 20x more fun.  Fuck you Tigole.  Fuck you in your EQ Asshole.

I doubt very much that this is "so easy".  Just scale down Magmadar, which is explicitly designed to require multiple hunters working in harmony and (kind of ) an anti-fearer in addition to your tank-healing-dps for a 5 man group?  Not impossible, but certainly not "so easy."  It would probably be easier to create a 5-man from scratch than to recalibrate MC as a 5-man with the same RvR.

[Fabricated]

I don't see why you need any more lvl 1-59 instances, you have way more than you need already. Two 40 person raid instances is more than enough also, three if you count onyxia. Whats needed is more strath/scholo/brs level content, and something to bridge the gap between ubrs and MC. You already have instances for every single level starting at around 16 all the way to 59, more would be simply wasted content.

WRONG. Placing the vast majority of the new content only in the range of people at level cap is a fucking STUPID practice that has ruined every single MMORPG that has done it. Why the fuck shouldn't new players or people rolling alts have new instances to run and places to go? Because they'll "level up too fast"?

No, THEY won't level up too fast, YOU will.

I'll say it again: Fuck the catasses.

[Pococurante]

Catering to catasses creates an incredible obstacle to fresh subscribers and forces obsolescence into the product life cycle.

[Malathor]

An average joe like myself [who's a semi-hardcore player in an old, casual guild] won't ever get to MC -- this is not a matter of difficulty, it's about numbers. Teaming up with another guild sounds like a good idea in theory, except that it doesn't actually, ya know, work.

There are at least a half a dozen multi-guild raiding alliances on my server, many quite successful (as in downing Onxy and Domo). Additionally, many of the guilds raiding on their own started out in multi-guild raiding alliances. Hell, I've heard of Rag downing guilds that literally got their start with a "LFG MC" spamming of Ironforge. It can be done, and it has been done, by many.

[Sogrinaugh]

To making leveling new characters more interesting, i would greatly prefer more outdoor quests to instances.  As it is, thier are alot of interesting locales that go mostly unused in terms of story, and alot of story that could use more "meat".  I'd like to see outdoor events, and things like the undead widow in the Reflecting Pools on spirit rise in thunder bluff, who gives you the pendant to place on her husbands grave... ways to find out more about thier story.

I'd like more non-instanced dungeons/caves/castles, good for a group of 2 or 3, and most especially more effort put into the faction system.  Things like having the Timbermaw Furblogs controlling a useful cavern passage is a good start, but thier is precious little of this sort of thing.  I also happen to think thier needs to be more conflicting factions, with different advantages depending on who you side with.

However, as far as instances go, more mid-low level stuff would be dumb.  As others have mentioned, getting a group together for RFC, BFD, RFD, and Uld is PAINFUL (especially uld).  Hardly anyone does these instances nowdays, adding more would be a complete waste of developer time.

[El Gallo]

WRONG. Placing the vast majority of the new content only in the range of people at level cap is a fucking STUPID practice that has ruined every single MMORPG that has done it. Why the fuck shouldn't new players or people rolling alts have new instances to run and places to go? Because they'll "level up too fast"?

There won't be enough new players on any given server except for the ones near the top of the login list to form the large clumps of similarly-levelled lowbies needed to support the low level instances they have, and why the hell would a "new player" need "new instances to run and places to go" in the first place.  The instances that are in the game now are new to a new player, who by definition is, like, new to the game and stuff.

Alts have similar issues re: clumping and do typically level too fast because they are typically twinked to the gills.  Most players skipped many of the instances the first time around so there is some new-to-them stuff.  Basing your entire game around alts is lame anyway, since a lot of people don't care two shits about alts while almost everyone gives several shits about their main character.

No, THEY won't level up too fast, YOU will.
I'll say it again: Fuck the catasses.

-add 3 new 5-man instances at 60 so non-catasses can enjoy this new content right now with their characters that they have spent the last 9 months developing in a group of their friends they have made over that time = OMG CATASS

-add 3 new instances at 20, 35 and 50 so non-catasses get the joy creating another alt and slogging through the 1-50 level grind all over again so they can enjoy the new content if they are lucky enough to find 4 other people who happened to have their 17th alt at that same level at the same time = WORKINGMAN'S PARADISE

Gotcha.

[HaemishM]

I hate alts. But let's face it, when you hit 60, you can PVP or you can make alts or you can uber-raid. The uber raid part requires a lot of time and effort that most people do not have, not to mention it is boring in the extreme unless you are leading the raid. It is also completely, diametrically opposed to the playstyle of the previous 60 levels, which does not really encourage grouping, especially in nothing larger than 5-10 man groups. Thus, the uber raid part is custom-fit to 1-fucking-percent of the population.

PVP has the inherent problems that all PVP systems have, all of which can push the casual player away. It is also geared not only to appeal to the uber raid crowd, because of group size and the item advantages gained from doing raids, but also to the uber competitive crowd, which may make up another 1-fucking-percent of the population.

Then you have alts. Making an alt can provide a new experience by trying a new class or class/combo, but again, a lot of the quests are generic, not class-specific. So short of making an alt in an opposing faction to your main, on another server, you'll be repeating content, which can get boring. Boring leads to quitting.

Or at 60 you can just quit once you get bored.

See, being bored should be anathema to the dev team, and that's why they should be adding content in general. Because boredom leads to quitting, and the dev team's primary goal in a subscription MMOG is to keep people subscribed and playing. Focuing most of your efforts on those 2% loudmouths who do uber raids is repeating many of the same mistakes of previous MMOG's.

[Dren]

I wouldn't mind if the current raid content eventually gets handed down to the 5-man groups while new raid content is introduced as mentioned.  It would be a nice life cycle that would keep me somewhat interested I think.  I am not one that feels I need everything handed to me, nor do I feel like I have to be the first to get shiny item number XXX.  Thus, I'm a casual player-type.

I think there could be a good mix of new 5-man plus 40-man content added as long as the older content is toned down and opened up to the masses over time.  Seems smart to  me.

[Zane0]

Catering to catasses creates an incredible obstacle to fresh subscribers and forces obsolescence into the product life cycle.

[/i] This is true, but you have difficulties if you go the other way too of course. 

I'd say that maintaining a healthy MMO isn't a question of catering to either one extreme or another (casual or hardcore) but rather to strike a proper balance between the two, and sticking to it.  You can't rationally ignore your most dedicated and outspoken subscribers, even if they're technically your "least efficient" ones. 

If you have the misfortune of being a hardcore gamer who doesn't like traditional hardcore content.. I guess you'll have a lot of time to be angry.  I'd say that the MMO industry recognizes two main types of subscribers- the hardcore group players and the casual solo/small groupers.  If you don't fit into either mold very easily, then I guess it'll always be a labor of love.  Or whatnot.

[Fabricated]

There won't be enough new players on any given server except for the ones near the top of the login list to form the large clumps of similarly-levelled lowbies needed to support the low level instances they have, and why the hell would a "new player" need "new instances to run and places to go" in the first place.  The instances that are in the game now are new to a new player, who by definition is, like, new to the game and stuff.

Saying that a new player doesn't need more content because they're new is a really stupid excuse. The low to mid level game hasn't ever felt like a means to an end for me in WoW, mostly because I knew I wasn't going to experience half of the high-end content. I'm enjoying rolling alts as it is, and new stuff to do would make it much more fun.

Also, your server must suck (more), because none of my alts have had any trouble finding groups for pretty much anything, outside of Shadowfang Keep (which is mostly ignored by Alliance players) and even then I still eventually got into some. Doesn't hurt that I've been recommending SFK to everyone in their mid-20's since it's a cool instance.

I'd say in the overall population across the servers that the minority are doing level 60 raids. Why cater exclusively to them? Because they use the boards and bitch the loudest?

Alts have similar issues re: clumping and do typically level too fast because they are typically twinked to the gills.  Most players skipped many of the instances the first time around so there is some new-to-them stuff.  Basing your entire game around alts is lame anyway, since a lot of people don't care two shits about alts while almost everyone gives several shits about their main character.

Uh, and raiding yet another instance in Blackrock over and over and over and over again endlessly for phat lewts is any less lame? Since when was letting a MMORPG get top-heavy and 90% focused on level-cap content ever good? A good balance of content will keep a majority of the players (be they new, alt-rollers, or high-end) from getting bored, at least moreso than content geared totally for 50+ players.

-add 3 new 5-man instances at 60 so non-catasses can enjoy this new content right now with their characters that they have spent the last 9 months developing in a group of their friends they have made over that time = OMG CATASS

-add 3 new instances at 20, 35 and 50 so non-catasses get the joy creating another alt and slogging through the 1-50 level grind all over again so they can enjoy the new content if they are lucky enough to find 4 other people who happened to have their 17th alt at that same level at the same time = WORKINGMAN'S PARADISE

Gotcha.

[Calantus]

If you have the misfortune of being a hardcore gamer who doesn't like traditional hardcore content.. I guess you'll have a lot of time to be angry.  I'd say that the MMO industry recognizes two main types of subscribers- the hardcore group players and the casual solo/small groupers.  If you don't fit into either mold very easily, then I guess it'll always be a labor of love.  Or whatnot.

>_<

[Margalis]

MMORPGs are designed to keep subscribers, not add new ones. Usually expansions do very little to attract new players. The theory seems to be shoot your load in the first few months and hope you get a lot of subs up front, then hold onto them forever by continuously raising the level cap, adding more items, etc.

I think one reason it's hard for MMORPGs to grow over time is that if your friend tells you the game is cool and you join up 5 months after he does you basically can't play together unless he makes an alt.

[Ironwood]

I think one reason it's hard for MMORPGs to grow over time is that if your friend tells you the game is cool and you join up 5 months after he does you basically can't play together unless he makes an alt.

Bingo.  Main problem with WoW atm.

Sidekicking, I hear good things about...