Compilation of things that may come

[HRose]

You don't really need to scale the drops, just the drop rate on those drops, if you want to keep things "fair" A 5 man group isntance should drop a super item 1/8 as often as a 40 man group instance.

It's so easy.  And would make the game about 20x more fun.  Fuck you Tigole.  Fuck you in your EQ Asshole.

Nope.

We do not even need the "drop rate". Just link the loot to a quest and we're done. You do the quest and get your reward as intended.

Btw, if an instance drops a set item to a 5 man group as often to a 40 man group, there wouldn't be 40 man groups. At all.

I hate alts. But let's face it, when you hit 60, you can PVP or you can make alts or you can uber-raid. The uber raid part requires a lot of time and effort that most people do not have, not to mention it is boring in the extreme unless you are leading the raid. It is also completely, diametrically opposed to the playstyle of the previous 60 levels, which does not really encourage grouping, especially in nothing larger than 5-10 man groups. Thus, the uber raid part is custom-fit to 1-fucking-percent of the population.

PVP has the inherent problems that all PVP systems have, all of which can push the casual player away. It is also geared not only to appeal to the uber raid crowd, because of group size and the item advantages gained from doing raids, but also to the uber competitive crowd, which may make up another 1-fucking-percent of the population.

Then you have alts. Making an alt can provide a new experience by trying a new class or class/combo, but again, a lot of the quests are generic, not class-specific. So short of making an alt in an opposing faction to your main, on another server, you'll be repeating content, which can get boring. Boring leads to quitting.

Or at 60 you can just quit once you get bored.

See, being bored should be anathema to the dev team, and that's why they should be adding content in general. Because boredom leads to quitting, and the dev team's primary goal in a subscription MMOG is to keep people subscribed and playing. Focuing most of your efforts on those 2% loudmouths who do uber raids is repeating many of the same mistakes of previous MMOG's.

That's a wonderful summary.

But I believe the problem is about the "mudflation" as a development attitude. Mudflation ultimately builds gaps between the players. Between "have" and "not have". This is directly bad for a Virtual World.

What if the development focuses on different approaches? PvP can be so much more interesting without being another treadmill. There is no need to have the players separated between the group with uber loot and the group without it. In fact this is what removes the fun from the PvP, which is directly more a virual world compared to PvE.

Nothing can go well with this old approach. If they remove the grind from the PvE endgame they simply won't be able to produce enough content. They have ALREADY big problems even with those painful grinds. Think if they remove them. They cannot.

My point is that it's the whole approach that is completely wrong and pointless and that needs to change.

[Ironwood]

Putting the Uber Items in PvP ruined it.  Totally.

Last night's AV instance was a total fucking joke as we got totally railroaded because the horde group didn't give a fuck about winning.

It was all about the quests (that give items) and leeching CP's from the players that were trying.  It was a fucking joke and, in one fell swoop, has totally put me off AV play.

[El Gallo]

I hate alts. But let's face it, when you hit 60, you can PVP or you can make alts or you can uber-raid.
. . . .
 Focuing most of your efforts on those 2% loudmouths who do uber raids is repeating many of the same mistakes of previous MMOG's.

I don't mind gear-oriented PvE progression, just give me Dire Maul and a quest or two every couplethree months and I'll be fine with that and filling in gaps with a little PvP and raiding.  Fuck making new content that I'll be forced to make another alt to see.  Though I bet the % of people participating in raids  is much higher than 2.  There are something like 20 guilds on my server that have killed at least some boss in MC with more joining the list all the time, and my server is kind of a backwater.  That's got to be at least ~1,000 players.  I don't know how many active accounts there are on my server (or any other), but the Census site indicates that there were ~3,200 unique level 60's and ~4,700 unique 51-60's who played at some point in the last 30 days on my server.

level 60 raids . . . .   raiding yet another instance in Blackrock.

Why are you ranting about raids?  I'm talking about 5-10 man instances just like you.  We only disagree about what level characters they should be designed for.  You are right about one thing, somebody loves their straw man.

[Calantus]

I will say one thing, Blizz messed up their order of instancing. Even if I wasn't sick of 40-man raids I'd still be damn sick of BRM. If they had only put a couple of instances in BRM, then given us some other high end instances to play with we could embrace the nostalgia of going back to BRM when they put in those instances after all the time spent elsewhere. Instead BWL was met with a resounding "BLACKROCK MOUNTAIN AGAIN?!?!?" from even the hardcore raiders in my former guild.

[Dren]

I will say one thing, Blizz messed up their order of instancing. Even if I wasn't sick of 40-man raids I'd still be damn sick of BRM. If they had only put a couple of instances in BRM, then given us some other high end instances to play with we could embrace the nostalgia of going back to BRM when they put in those instances after all the time spent elsewhere. Instead BWL was met with a resounding "BLACKROCK MOUNTAIN AGAIN?!?!?" from even the hardcore raiders in my former guild.

Yeah, I don't even raid at Blackrock and I thought that when I learned where it was going to be. 

Blizzard sure likes their Blackrock theme I guess. (MC, BRD, UBRS, LBRS, BWL...am I missing anything else?)

[Sogrinaugh]

I like the fact that  BRM has such a high concentration of desired instances.  It creates an area of very high traffic and lots of pvp.

The day BWL was released, the level of spawn camping was insane, full raid groups viaing for control of the quartermaster, rampant ganking, trying to time and position your res to escape... good times.

[HaemishM]

MMORPGs are designed to keep subscribers, not add new ones. Usually expansions do very little to attract new players. The theory seems to be shoot your load in the first few months and hope you get a lot of subs up front, then hold onto them forever by continuously raising the level cap, adding more items, etc.

Actually, expansions as they are done now are about attracting new players as well as keeping existing ones. They are there to put a new box on the shelf 6 months after the old one should have come off. By putting a new box up, they can also bundle the expansion with the main game and get 2 boxes on the shelves, which does attract new players. Keeping that box on the shelf is what cuts down on turnover, because you'll always lose subscribers, but as long as you gain about as many as you lose, you should be doing well.

[HaemishM]

But I believe the problem is about the "mudflation" as a development attitude. Mudflation ultimately builds gaps between the players. Between "have" and "not have". This is directly bad for a Virtual World.

You are misinformed. WoW is not a virtual world, it's a persistent multiplayer game.

[Margalis]

Actually, expansions as they are done now are about attracting new players as well as keeping existing ones. They are there to put a new box on the shelf 6 months after the old one should have come off. By putting a new box up, they can also bundle the expansion with the main game and get 2 boxes on the shelves, which does attract new players. Keeping that box on the shelf is what cuts down on turnover, because you'll always lose subscribers, but as long as you gain about as many as you lose, you should be doing well.

That is true enough, but most expansions themselves are skewed very heavily in favor of high-end players. I'm not sure how much just having a box on the shelf again really helps now that everyone knows that if you didn't like the original so much the expansion won't do anything for you either.

It's odd because there are simple things that could be done like reducing travel times that will make people with alts happy as well as new players. I don't think just adding more and more content for new players makes a lot of sense, but you could certainly jigger things around a bit. For example making travel times more tolerable.

---

It's funny the comments about AV and PvP. Blizzard did the same thing in Warcraft 3, where as part of the PvP you had to PvE. It's like they have attention deficit and they can't make something that is just straightforwardly about one fun thing. IMO Warcraft 3 was a step backwards from SC because of crap like "sure, I could fight my opponent - or I could go fight some AI monsters and level up first!"

Likewise having quests in PvP-centric areas is just silly. If people want to do quests, let them do quests in the quest areas.

[Pococurante]

WoW's subs continue to ramp.  The rulebreaker continues to shatter old assumptions.

When expansions cater to the power players that simply ramps the obstacles to fresh subs.  Expansions should emphasize wider over taller.

[El Gallo]

When expansions cater to the power players that simply ramps the obstacles to fresh subs.  Expansions should emphasize wider over taller.

Not really.  The power of mudflation, when properly harnessed, ensures that the difference between a new character and an apex character remain relatively constant throughout the game's life.   

Wider over taller would possibly work in a game designed from the ground up to do that.  WoW is is a linear character development game with some story glommed on, just like 99.9% of the computer RPGs that have been released since Akalabeth.  Taller is the only way to go.  Wider also offers its own problems: like the fact that you'll end up with 8 shitty games packaged together instead of 1 decent one.  I think HRose & co are barking up the wrong tree.

[Pococurante]

Well that's certainly the way it has been done.  And it's certainly locked those services into an ever decreasing sub count.  Planned obsolescence and something that given the current state of client-side technology is wasteful of the IP.

[Dren]

The difference with WoW is that I don't find the prospect of leveling a new character all that terrible.  If they added new content and perhaps even new races/classes I'd be willing to level some other character while I level the rest of my originals.  The system is just that easy and the lvl'ing curve is low enough especially if the new content is good.  I won't notice the grind as much. (Vive le rest experience!)

EQ - Can't say that.
SB - Can say that since leveling consisted of 48 hours of macro spawn groups. Wait, that sucks, nm.
SWG - Absolutely not!
CoH - Wish I could say it, but the damned lvl curve is way too steep.

[El Gallo]

Well that's certainly the way it has been done.  And it's certainly locked those services into an ever decreasing sub count. 

EQ's population fucking exploded after Kunark and Velious and only began to grow more slowly after DAOC was released [getting slightly flatter with PoP which violated the mudflation rule by making the difference between casuals and non casuals enormous], and only began to decline after WoW and EQ2 were imminent.  I'm not seeing an ever declining sub count.

[Pococurante]

... and only began to decline after WoW and EQ2 were imminent.  I'm not seeing an ever declining sub count.

Please to logically reconcile those last two phrases.

You outline the history which is my exact point.  You're citing a period where there was little genuine competition and the shiny was less sophisticated.  The newer products have reached a stage of client-side sophistication where they can hold their own much longer.  And we've reached a saturation of competition that will self-fulfill any earlier beliefs in planned obsolescence.

It's insane to intentionally abandon a proven franchise simply because an older implementation is losing ground.  Retooling with a clear migration path for the customer base is much more preferable than walking away.

Wide expansions are phased implementations to a more competitive implementation of the proven franchise.  They attract new subs.  Tall expansions are just money spent clinging to a shrinking base of subs.

Of course a wide expansion needs to be calibrated to what new subs want.  Mythic's TOA was wide but assumed new entrants to the MOG market wanted even more time burnt.  Sony's EQ2 should have been treated as wide didn't offer a clear migration path and so became a competiting product that undermined retention.

I understand WoW's next character expansion opens up new characters, new lands, new quests, new abilities.  That's a wide expansion and it's calbrated to the new entrants to the MOG market that want quick entertainment and accumulation.

[Shockeye]

Caydiem on the Blizzard boards just verified that Druids will be getting major changes to their feral forms in the 1.7 patch. Yay me.

[MrHat]

Caydiem on the Blizzard boards just verified that Druids will be getting major changes to their feral forms in the 1.7 patch. Yay me.

I suspect starting a Hunter (new talents) and druid in the near future.

[Shockeye]

There's still no timetable on when 1.7 is coming out. Could be months.

And being a druid means being an elf.

[MrHat]

There's still no timetable on when 1.7 is coming out. Could be months.

And being a druid means being an elf.

Fuck, that's right.

Ah well, made a hunter at least.  L1 Dwarf named inspirado.  Pure pet hunter.

[Shockeye]

There's still no timetable on when 1.7 is coming out. Could be months.

And being a druid means being an elf.

Fuck, that's right.

Ah well, made a hunter at least.  L1 Dwarf named inspirado.  Pure pet hunter.

I used to play an Orc hunter. I had a pet scorpion named "schild".

[schild]

MrHat is going to have a pet named Explosivo.

[MrHat]

MrHat is going to have a pet named Explosivo.

Damn fucking straight.

[Strazos]

Priest of Pwnage named Zhazha.

[AOFanboi]

And being a druid means being an elf.

Or a cow. Which is just as bad.

[Rasix]

And being a druid means being an elf.

Or a cow. Which is just as bad.

No, not even close. ELF, HE SAID ELF.

[TheWalrus]

On a new note, hunters get to be more uber in 1.7. Something about a godly pet every two minutes.

[Ironwood]

Hunters are shit boring right now and need some major work.

[OcellotJenkins]

Looks like survival and beast lines got some love, marks... not so much.

[Merusk]

On a new note, hunters get to be more uber in 1.7. Something about a godly pet every two minutes.

Yeah the new changes look really nice. You can see the new talent tree here.  I might start playing my hunter again, if they ever got a real role in a group.  The irritating thing is this new 'trap mastery' that reduces the ability to resist traps, a "bug" that was "fixed" in 1.6.  How odd that the 'bug' of irresistable traps had been in since beta and nobody noticed it until a month ago.  I call BS on this being a 'bug' any more than other 'bug' nerfs to classes since release.

People are overreacting when they look at the 'uber pet' thing, though.  It's +100% damage and 'unstoppable' (which is being interpreted as immune to stuns & CC but could mean anything) for 15 seconds.  However, everyone's so obsessed with fast pets or pets with huge runspeed that they all do anemic damage.  I think 74 is the upper end (without talents) on the faster pets. (1.2 atk spd) There's daggers that do more damage per hit.  Plus, pets are still just a distraction in PvP, even with the talent that gives them a 3second stun every minute (what with all the anti-stun trinkets).  Unless they do crazy damage you're still better-off ignoring them and going after the hunter themself.

The bulk of PvP talents all seem to be in survivability and marksmanship, as before. Sure Footed, Wyvern Sting, Aimed Shot (big buff here, reducing it to a 3 second flat timer) , Scattershot, entrapment, improved wing clip and the new +dam to humanoid talents will really buff hunters.   The new Improved Aspect of the Hawk in beast mastery I'm not sure on.  5 talent points for a 5% chance of an 8 second 30% speed buff.  If you're using a slow bow (or a gun or crossbow) that 5% is going to come very infrequently.

Looks like survival and beast lines got some love, marks... not so much.

Marks was a strong line, comparitvly, though.  Because of that I don't think it got looked at for buffs. Now it's not as impressive as the other two for pve or PvP, but rounds out both of them well.  The +5% damage talent in marksmanship combined with the two damage talents in survival will be fun to mess with.

[TheWalrus]

Think this post solves your DPS questions.

As a long noted 31BM/20MM specced I am *really* excited to see the incoming changes. When a friend of mine first told me that Spirt Bond was now a 21 point talent I immediately realized "wow, now I can have SB and scattershot!" however after looking at Intimidation and Beastal Wrath talents, I have concluded this will effectively be our I WIN button in both PvP and PvE.

Think about it.

From a PvP aspect - both talents have a 100 yard range, you can cast intimidation and send the pet it, will immediately stun the target for 3 seconds and then immediately hit beastal wrath.. throw a frenzy proc and you're looking at a 160DPS *60+ dps base, 80 with frenzy - x100% damage = 160dps) pet that can ot be feared, poly'd, rooted, hibernated or killed for 15 seconds - GG Casters.

[Sairon]

Perhaps going all marksmanship won't be such a no brainer as it used to be now.

I think WoW is a very solid execution of a 10 year old concept, give and take a couple of small diffrences. Pretty genious, in fact. All they did was use their brand to attract the masses. It would be cool to see he number of how high % of the players in WoW are first timers to the genre.

[Merusk]

Think this post solves your DPS questions.

As a long noted 31BM/20MM specced I am *really* excited to see the incoming changes. When a friend of mine first told me that Spirt Bond was now a 21 point talent I immediately realized "wow, now I can have SB and scattershot!" however after looking at Intimidation and Beastal Wrath talents, I have concluded this will effectively be our I WIN button in both PvP and PvE.

Think about it.

From a PvP aspect - both talents have a 100 yard range, you can cast intimidation and send the pet it, will immediately stun the target for 3 seconds and then immediately hit beastal wrath.. throw a frenzy proc and you're looking at a 160DPS *60+ dps base, 80 with frenzy - x100% damage = 160dps) pet that can ot be feared, poly'd, rooted, hibernated or killed for 15 seconds - GG Casters.

The thing is, stuns can be resisted or dispelled with a trinket.  Frenzy proc is reliant on crits, and we don't know if the bestial wrath buff is dispellable or not.  Right now there's too many unknowns to make it a reliable PvP build, IMO.  If it's a dispellable buff on the pet, it doesn't help at all.

Then again, I'm also biased against using pets in PvP because I do the big battle stuff rather than the 5vs5, being on a PvE server.  I found that when I tried I was spending more time rezzing and feeing my pet then regaining mana than I was acutally fighting.  When I let the pet take a death and only rezzed it during lulls I was gaining a LOT  more HKs and doing a lot more damage overall.  That's why I like the added damage talents in the survival line so much.

[Sogrinaugh]

One thing i can say is outside of MC/Ony (where hunters are good anyway) Wyvern Sting looks like it will make hunters a shoe-in for groups.  Good hunters anyway.

In maraudon, hunters are already the only class in the game that can CC the giants (ice trap) to make those double-pulls alot easier.  Now, in places like Zul, SM, and Temple, you'll be able to set trap, mark, and pull with sleep.  One gets trapped so you got about 10 seconds with that 5-pack now a 3-pack.  With 31 in survival, im sure you can off-tank 1 for abit, the DPS goes to town and drops one, works on the second, etc...

Hunters been asking for a skill to be desireable in groups for awhile now, i think they got it.

For pvp every hunter i know is SALIVATING over the prospect of having spirit bond and scattershot, and as a mage im rather disturbed by the Unstoppable Kitty of Death that some of you gimpy fucks will have.

Maybe i'll like my hunter alt more then my mage.

[Bunk]

I like those changes, considering I just hit 40 with my hunter. Full BM spec so far, because I like to be different. Its gonna be tough to decide where to put the last 20 pts though with these changes. That intimidate talent in BM will be huge since I had no stuns at all without MM.

[kaid]

For my hunter if I go full beast I would not go for the super fast attack speed pet anymore. Sure it is not as efficient with spirit bond but with that new 31 point talent snuffles the war piggy will be a mage eater. I have been my boar already hit for up to 90 damage on a non crit. Now if you double that and add in crits and if unstoppable really means cannot be effected by movement reducing powers mages will fear the piggy.

Hell already once snuffles is on a mage they frozen nova and blink away fast because he does tons of damage and with dash 2 can keep up to them while blinking if he is not rooted. Give him the ability to shrug off roots and mages are going to have a tough time escaping from him. Snuffles would also be good for wacking those pesky druids in cheeta form fleeing with the flags.

kaid