Hot Coffee, Rockstar & the ESRB.

[stray]

the right wing bible thumpers

[Rasix]

So, how again would good old fashion humping change the rating to an AO when the following would not:

Theft.
Drug smuggling.
Murder of all vartieties.  Cop killing. Killing random hookers and pedestrians. Contractual murder.  Vehicular homocide.
Gang violence.
Sex with sound effects (you already have "coffee" and you hear the sounds just no pixelated humping)
Prostitution
Kidnapping and murder.  Extortion, blackmail, etc etc.
More swear words than the entire South Park movie. 

I've seen the stupid Hot Coffee mod in action.  Even with something that changed the female skin to something nude it was hardly perverse.  There's no visible genetalia at all.  You'll see more hard core sex in a Michael Bay movie.

This is just fucking dumb.  The people pushing for this (change to AO)  should be dragged out into the street and hung by their toes. And Stray's right, it's just not the family values, bible thumping regime, the main push toward's legistation has come from the irresponsible parenting trifecta of Lieberman, Clinton and Gore.

[Evangolis]

GTA:SA gets AO rating.

Seems deserved to me.  Now the damn things will sell out even faster.  Wouldn't surprise me to see them start releasing multiple ratings going forward.

[Shockeye]

GTA:SA gets AO rating.

Seems deserved to me.  Now the damn things will sell out even faster.  Wouldn't surprise me to see them start releasing multiple ratings going forward.

You're hours behind.

[Strazos]

I don't think it's fair to blame the ESRB for this. It's not like they scrutinize internal code.

Why must people be stupid?

[Llava]

So wait.

Rockstar denied that they put those scenes in.

Now they admit it.

What are they, the Bush Administration?

ZING!

[Margalis]

I think this is pretty interesting in general. You can't blame the ESRB, they rated the game as it existed. It isn't even an easter egg, you have to modify the game.

Can you blame Rockstar? I think what they did was dumb but shipping with code that never runs is a pretty minor sin.

If I were Rockstar I would find the guy who made the mod and firebomb his house.

[Evangolis]

GTA:SA gets AO rating.

Seems deserved to me.  Now the damn things will sell out even faster.  Wouldn't surprise me to see them start releasing multiple ratings going forward.

You're hours behind.

I blame the Media.  They were supposed to call me.

I think this is pretty interesting in general. You can't blame the ESRB, they rated the game as it existed. It isn't even an easter egg, you have to modify the game.

Can you blame Rockstar? I think what they did was dumb but shipping with code that never runs is a pretty minor sin.

If I were Rockstar I would find the guy who made the mod and firebomb his house.

Sorry, but I can't agree here, I see this as part of the whole 'bad coding standards = bad games' issue.  Sure, I can understand why they shipped that way, as I said, I've done the same myself, but is still sub-standard work, and when that shit bites you in the ass, you gotta point your finger in the mirror.

[schild]

The ESRB rates what's on the shelf. If they didn't, I could get in the face of Squaresoft and EB for letting that assmuncher kid name Locke "Faggot" in Final Fantasy VI when they sold me the game used.

The ESRB has no place policing this shit. Period. I can not buy the sex minigame off the shelf.

[Trippy]

Take-Two has halted production of GTA:SA and is redoing the content

I predict speculators are going to buy up as many copies of the current version as possible and put them up on eBay after the updated version is released so if you don't have the game yet and want the "modable" version you better run out and get one now before they sell out.

[MrHat]

I agree with just about everything said in here.

I can, and will, see more sex and flesh on MTV at any given time during the day (even in the morning, think of the children!).

[Murgos]

I agree with just about everything said in here.

I can, and will, see more sex and flesh on MTV at any given time during the day (even in the morning, think of the children!).

They've tried going after MTV before.  It didn't work but it did get them a LOT of funding from concerned hollywood types to make sure it didn't happen again in the form of lobbiests and campaign funding.

My current take on this is that it is Hillary's method of the old Mob strong arm.  She's telling the gaming industry pay up or face investigations.

[Pococurante]

"M" is not getting slapped onto Saturday morning cartoons - games like GTA are definitely adult themes.  The virtual environments aren't vague 32x32 sprites careening off in MIDI whoop-whoops but are pretty realistic renditions.  Once the ratings systems actually work you can enjoy the dry hump of the LLL mini-game, convince your S.O. you really are mature adult, and feel good knowing you're making your favorite industry even more insanely profitable.

The nudity just gives them traction.  These games *should* have adult ratings for exactly the laundry list posted by Rasix.  Why the fuck would any of you care about this - you should be applauding a ratings system that actually works instead of playing winky-wink games with bags of money.

Oh yeah - the overabundance of 85% plus Hedonism scores. "I don't want rating systems that work, I want what I want when I want it Cuz I'm An Adult!!"

[Murgos]

You guys are all wrong.

This is NOT an example of big brother trying to be your keeper and make the world a safer place.  It's an example of Hillary trying to get the Game Industry to pony up some more lobbyist dollars by showing what may happen if they don't start with the campaign donations.

[MrHat]

So Take-Two gets back all of the AO versions, releases versions without the humping, then releases the Unrated version at a later date for $60/box.

[Sky]

The ESRB rates what's on the shelf. If they didn't, I could get in the face of Squaresoft and EB for letting that assmuncher kid name Locke "Faggot" in Final Fantasy VI when they sold me the game used.

The ESRB has no place policing this shit. Period. I can not buy the sex minigame off the shelf.

This is what I've been saying. I just sent off another letter to Hillary.

My copy of GTASA has NO HOT COFFEE. Why should it be rated as such?

How about nude skins for other games? ALL GAMES ARE AO NOW. 

[Ironwood]

How about nude skins for other games? ALL GAMES ARE AO NOW. 

You beat me to that point.  I was just going to bring up the nude Nazi mod in Wolfenstien.

[Sky]

These games *should* have adult ratings for exactly the laundry list posted by Rasix.

Sorry, pops. I disagree.

I like the Mature rating, because it allows the parents to make that decision. When I was 14, I was quite able to understand fantasy and reality, I had a few nudie mags and we'd shoot guns all the time. I've turned out just fine, because I was a mature kid. I think it's a crime to deny kids like I was the chance to play a fun game because some uptight folks got their panties bunched 'for the children'. That's censorship, and this is still america, for the time being, I guess.

It's land of the free and home of the brave, not land of the coddled and home of the safe. Don't like it? Don't buy it. But don't tell me I can't, or you might get hurt. Seems the government is forgetting who founded this country, and under what conditions.

[Bunk]

Ok, I'll make two points.  One - yes I brought up the over used right-wing bible thumper stuff here, and it wasn't really appropriate. Fair enough, I was wrong. That triumvirate up there are obviously now just wanna be right-wing bible thumpers.  (I keed)

Two - I have no problem with the theory behind puting more stringent ratings on games that are appropriate. You're right, I wouldn't want my 12 year old (had I one) to play a game like San Andreas - because of the levels of violence. But suddenly up and saying "its bad for teh childrens" becuse you can unlock a minigame with dry-humping? Fuck that stupid ass shit.

The rating system is flawed as it is, because the ratings are handed out for stupid reasons. Then, once you have an inappropriate rating on a game, you start down the road of that game not succeeding because Wal*Mart decides not to carry that rating.

I tend to go off on bible-thumpers when issues of censoring sexual content come up, even if it isn't those folk who are bringing this shit up in this particular case. Why? Well, in general I have to blame North America's tendancy to consider sex as being much more dangerous to children than violence on someone. The most likely culprit is the Bible belt. If you want to call your self left-wing and share the same stupid view, then I'll blame you too.

[HaemishM]

See, I love that everyone who is getting their tits in a wringer about this shit all fail to realize that with or without dry humping, NO ONE UNDER THE AGE OF 17 IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO BUY THIS GAME BY THEMSELVES. Nobody. And why are they able to do so? Because the retailers are selling it to them, OR because their parents are buying it for them. Nothing you see in GTA: SA is going to be any worse than what you would see in an R-Rated movie, which again, no one under the age of 17 should be able to see without a parent purchasing the ticket for them. The AO rating is essentially nothing more than a punishment rating, because we all know the only places that will carry AO-rated games won't sell enough of them to affect Rockstar's bottom line. It's the same punitive type of rating that the MPAA tosses on NC17 movies. It's a stigma rating.

We don't need laws making it illegal to sell these games to kids. We need retailers who are propping up the ESRB Ratings system to actually do what they are supposed to do and enforce them. And we need parents to take responsibility for their child's upbringing and either monitor what their kids are playing or shut the fuck up.

And we need Rockstar to stop being such a bag of stupid, irresponsible douchebags. I have no problem with the content of the GTA games, I rather like them. What I have a problem with is their irresponsibility and "Whoops" attitude to the whole thing. They WANT the fucking controversy, because it generates sales. They are the Luke fucking Skywalker's of the game industry, and he was a right douchebag. They are only lucky in that they have provided interesting gameplay to go along with the bullshit shock value content. If they didn't have that, their shock value Marilyn Manson gangsta thug rap bullshit would sell hot once, then disappear like a stone.

[HaemishM]

Or the nude Sims mod. Or all the nude/BDSM NWN mods and adventures.

[Evangolis]

The ESRB rates what's on the shelf. If they didn't, I could get in the face of Squaresoft and EB for letting that assmuncher kid name Locke "Faggot" in Final Fantasy VI when they sold me the game used.

The ESRB has no place policing this shit. Period. I can not buy the sex minigame off the shelf.

This is what I've been saying. I just sent off another letter to Hillary.

My copy of GTASA has NO HOT COFFEE. Why should it be rated as such?

How about nude skins for other games? ALL GAMES ARE AO NOW. 

If you're feeling particularly like Don Quixote, point out that the NFL has real people doing real violence with real injuries and is broadcast on the open airwaves.  I can still remember watching Joe Thiesman's leg rippling like water as I watched the thrid slow motion replay on Monday Night Football.  And how bout them twins!   Hey Pete Coors, thanks for the mammaries.

At the same time, I don't think Rockstar is innocent here.  There is a difference between people adding content wholesale vs just creating an access to content existing in the code already.  That was sloppy work, and they can do much better.  In fact, having done much better is the only excuse for the way they push the envelope.  But if you put the bomb in the box with the grapefruit, you aren't guiltless just because sombody else lit the fuse.

[Margalis]

What about just using a gameshark to change a guy in Mortal Kombat from Jonny Cage to Pig Fucker?

[Samwise]

And we need parents to take responsibility for their child's upbringing and either monitor what their kids are playing or shut the fuck up.

True story: the other day I was at the local video store and I saw an eight year old press a copy of GTA:VC into his bleached-blonde-trailer-park-looking mother's hand and say "I want this one, mommy."  The mother doesn't even look at the cover, and goes up to the counter to pay for it.  As I was considering intervening, the guy at the counter courteously informed the mother that this game might not be appropriate for her youngster because it was about like letting him watch Scarface.  He also pointed out the "M" rating and explained what it meant.  The mother said "well, I had no idea that these games could be so violent, I just thought they were all for kids," and put it back, to the kid's chagrin.

THAT is where the problem is.  I have never seen one of these retailers that sells M-rated games to small children (no doubt twirling their mustaches all the while), although I'm sure they do exist somewhere.  I see stupid parents all the time.  If that kid hadn't accompanied his mother up to the counter, she probably would've gotten the game and then given it to Junior to play completely unsupervised.  I'm sure she's also the type who would rent Ninja Scroll for the kid thinking it was a Disney movie.  There is that much stupid out there, folks.

On the bright side, this won't last forever, since many of the parents of tomorrow are the gamers of today.

[Riggswolfe]

Or the nude Sims mod. Or all the nude/BDSM NWN mods and adventures.

Where do I get those NWN mods? You know, for research into the collapse of society and stuff.

[HaemishM]

NWN Vault, I imagine. I never played any, but that's where they were available for download back in the day.

[HaemishM]

But see, that's what I'm saying. You saw the exception on the retailer side. How many retailers are going to do that? Fuck, in Wal-Mart, chances are NONE of them will do that.

Also, part of that is a problem the industry has as a whole, just like the animation industry and the comics industry. The cultural perception is that cartoons/video games/comic books are for kids, even though the demographics on each of those industries is really starting to skew towards the majority being 20-something adults. The video game industry doesn't do nearly enough public service PR, and that's one place where the ESRB are falling flat on their faces for not even trying. Why are there no PSA's explaining that video games aren't just for kids, explaining what they do? Or advertorials in parenting magazines and on TV? So far, all I've seen the ESRB do is stick ratings on games and trying to keep Congress from making censorship laws. It's not enough. It's token lip service. The video game industry is young, but it's time to grow the fuck up and realize that with big dollars comes big responsibility.

[Sky]

Some great points, Hammy, as usual. But damn you for beating me to the walmart reference.

I think behemoths like EA are doing a serious disservice by not doing tv and radio spots like you mention, or for using just the bill of their moneyhats to buy some politicians (as undesirable as I find that practice, it is the way the country works...).

I watched a mother drop her 4-ish year old kid into a shopping cart last night, on his head, because he was 'acting up'. With a newborn in the baby seat and another kid trailing them. I don't trust parents to do anything, yet my belief is it's their responsibility.

We're fucked imo. I mean, should we pass a law to make all shopping carts foam-lined? You can't stop ignorant, stupid fucks from being ignorant, stupid fucks. No matter how much it gives self-righteous folks a warm fuzzy.

[Pococurante]

And we need Rockstar to stop being such a bag of stupid, irresponsible douchebags. I have no problem with the content of the GTA games, I rather like them. What I have a problem with is their irresponsibility and "Whoops" attitude to the whole thing. They WANT the fucking controversy, because it generates sales.

Exactly.  Taunt the politicians and they will come.

Maturity is hard for some.  To wit...

It's land of the free and home of the brave, not land of the coddled and home of the safe. Don't like it? Don't buy it. But don't tell me I can't, or you might get hurt. Seems the government is forgetting who founded this country, and under what conditions.

Ooh you called me pops!  Now I'm convinced!  So did you turn out fine because mommy & daddy let you buy nudie mags, the kindly grandfatherly general store owner sold them to you with a wink and a smile, and you walked out of his store with a jaunty step as you carried home your ciggies and beer?

No - you grew up in a world where a lot of controls helped backfill for your parents when they weren't always able.

Yes Verucca you can have your porn when daddy gets you back homey-womey.

[Yegolev]

The rating system is flawed as it is, because the ratings are handed out for stupid reasons. Then, once you have an inappropriate rating on a game, you start down the road of that game not succeeding because Wal*Mart decides not to carry that rating.

Zing one...

See, I love that everyone who is getting their tits in a wringer about this shit all fail to realize that with or without dry humping, NO ONE UNDER THE AGE OF 17 IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO BUY THIS GAME BY THEMSELVES.

zing two.

It's a combination of money (lack of AO ratings) and politics (M is OK for kids, but AO kicks Jesus in the balls).  A rating system is no excuse to offload your parental responsibilities.  Be assured that the kids who are allowed to buy San Andreas are also attending the R movies at the local cineplex, thanks to a combination of disinterested retailers and parents.

People make me angry.

[voodoolily]

So, how again would good old fashion humping change the rating to an AO when the following would not:

Theft.
Drug smuggling.
Murder of all vartieties.  Cop killing. Killing random hookers and pedestrians. Contractual murder.  Vehicular homocide.
Gang violence.
Sex with sound effects (you already have "coffee" and you hear the sounds just no pixelated humping)
Prostitution
Kidnapping and murder.  Extortion, blackmail, etc etc.
More swear words than the entire South Park movie. 

You left out S&M and the ability to give a beat-down with a double-headed dildo (found in the showers of the police station no less).

[Sky]

Heh. That was funny. Calling you pops was a joke, but it's nice how you threw out a shitton of assumptions after.

I turned out fine because I had caring parents who took the time to talk to me and raise me properly. They didn't "let" me buy the nudie mags, I got a few playboys from a friend. Like just about every kid I knew growing up.

And I fully stand behind the quote you grabbed. America is becoming overly pussified...for the children. Fuck the children. The parents are the problem, not mtv, not video games, not music, not guns. If you can't understand that, I feel bad for you. Must be my immaturity speaking.  

[Samwise]

You left out S&M

The so-called S&M in this game was tame.  The girl has a dungeon for a bedroom with chains hanging all over it, she wears a full bondage outfit, and all she and CJ do is a bit of light spanking.  AO my ass.

[Pococurante]

Heh. That was funny. Calling you pops was a joke, but it's nice how you threw out a shitton of assumptions after.

I didn't make a single assumption about you.  It's called sarcasm and it doesn't always come in flashing green fonts tough guy.  I haven't seen a kindly grandfatherly general store owner outside of TV.  I thought the pops comment was funny so you got another tablespoon of Verucca Salt in return.  Foodfights are fun.

Of course you snuck your mags.  So did I. So did pretty much every fairly normal kid male and female.  Hey you know what? I still hide them.

And that's my point.  Don't make me explain to again the difference between society organized around mental twelve year olds versus one the shelters the real ones.

There's nothing pussy about a society that segregates its children form "adult pursuits".  There's nothing pussy about an AO rating.  And it's not a punishment rating, Haem (if anything ratings work just the opposite on kids).  Using your idiot logic we don't need porn ratings either.

A rating is not censorship or a ban.  A rating just means the right people can buy what they want they want it in the right place and with complete confidence they are NOT contributing to a crappy society.  Anyone bitching about a rating is a freaking child in an adult's body.

Bitch when something is banned.  Bitch when it's censored.  Bitch when the fuckers abuse the ratings systems to appeal to the mental twleve year olds.

Bitch like a grown up.

[Strazos]

I wish I could have gotten into NWN....I even bought a guide to build modules, but I didn't have anyone to DM,

To stay on topic...fuck you Hillary.

Rockstar, stop being lazy.

And a big "Fuck You" to J. Baca.