BF2: Nerf Thread

[Toast]

Here's mine:

Planes and helicopters are out of control.

Stationary stinger batteries are worse than worthless. What in the hell is the point of these things? Even after enticing an early chaff drop, the missiles seem to never hit. If they do hit, the helicopter just flies away…or lights me up with its own 20 missile barrage. Now, how exactly does a helicopter take multiple SAM missile hits while a tank usually explodes in one hit? 

These super copters can also take multiple direct cockpit hits from a freaking tank shells. In the mean time, if super copter detects the offending tank (which is stuck crawling along the ground in a long reload cycle), out comes the 20 missile barrage of death.

Further:  I frequently use APCs to hold helicopters in a steady barrage of fire. I lead them and land round after round after round of armor piercing munitions into their sides, fronts, tail rotors. What happens?  It starts smoking before flying away to repair.  Last night I drained a Tunguska mobile anti-air battery of cannon and missiles with no kills. Even with a lock with no chaff, the missiles are completely impotent.

Simply put, the armor and evasion capabilities of the helicopters are excessively high. Consequently, pilots are always at the top of the standings.

Where are effective anti-air batteries, like…the freaking flak guns from 60 years ago?
Why do blackhawk helicopters have more powerful armor than M1A2 tanks?
Why isn't playing sitting duck in a stinger battery rewarded? Why is a chopper pilot rewarded with godlike immunity?

[WayAbvPar]

I was bitching about this on TS last night. There was a guy tooling around in a jet that was just destroying everything on the map. It really shouldn't be an 'I win' button when you fire up a fucking aircraft. This is the main reason I am looking forward to the expansion- concentration on infantry.

[Furiously]

It's the reason I like maps with one helocopter on each side. and 1 tank on each side. Then of course I bitch about the bunny hopper that kills me in one shot somehow.

[stray]

I disagree. I'm not going to say that you're doing anything wrong, but in my opinion, anti-air is the perfect counter to choppers and planes. If they were nurfed (especially choppers), it'd be totally unfair. I have more kills than deaths in that matchup. A fuckload more. Jets are a better counter for other jets, but I've knocked them down myself before too. Depending on what gun and section of the map I'm at (and of course, if I have at least one pilot on my team), I can take the entire opposing side out of their air game.

[WayAbvPar]

Try it on the Gulf of Oman map- there is a SAM station in the middle base (nearest the beach). Any pilot who knows how to fly can bomb you back to the Stone Age before you ever scratch his paint- because of the geography and how the base walls are set up, you can't track planes for about 220 degrees. All you can do is wait for them to fly directly at you (making it tough for even a locked missile to hit) and eat their cannons or bombs for lunch.

Instead of nerfing them, perhaps add some more SAM stations, and/or even an optional shoulder-fired Stinger- an anti-air class instead of antitank.

[Viin]

is one of the unlockable anti-tank guns a air-to-air missile?

Anyone know where to find a list of all the unlockable weapons?

[stray]

Anti-Tank gets a street sweeper, the DAO-12. They still use the old anti-tank gun for everything else.

As for all the weapons, Trippy posted this in another thread:

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7775/weaponstats8ff.jpg

[Trippy]

Transport helos are ridiculously hard to kill if they have two engineers on board repairing. They should make it so that you need to get out of the helo to repair it like they do for all the other vehicles. Attack copters aren't so hard to kill in comparison.

[Lemming]

An engineer can also repair the Hummers, Transports, and Mobile AAs as long as he is sitting in the right spot that doesn't force him into a gun turret.  Not as effective as repairing a helicopter, but it can be done.

Edit: I do agree, however, that being able to have three engineers repairing a chopper at once is an unfair advantage.

[Trippy]

An engineer can also repair the Hummers, Transports, and Mobile AAs as long as he is sitting in the right spot that doesn't force you into a gun turret.  Not as effective as repairing a helicopter, but it can be done.

Ah that makes sense -- it's any slot where you can wield your spanner.

[Samprimary]

Why do blackhawk helicopters have more powerful armor than M1A2 tanks?

You should be able to drop a blackhawk with a tank shell, methinks.

[Sky]

I've been rumbling about helos for a while. Just been hoping it's my newbliness and not really overpowered, but I dunno.

I /really/ suck with the wire-guided missiles, unless it's right in front of me, I'm not hitting it. If the AT kit got a heat-seeking missile upgrade, that would be real helpful. The rocket emplacements are fairly useless, especially when they draw the wrath of the withering rocket spam that's as bad or worse than anything in Planetside (the Reaver, but at least there are plenty of effective countermeasures, the Reaver is pretty fragile...)

[Toast]

Why do blackhawk helicopters have more powerful armor than M1A2 tanks?

You should be able to drop a blackhawk with a tank shell, methinks.

It takes 2+ direct hits to down a helicopter. From what I can tell, it takes one rocket from the copter to blow up the tank. Balance, eh?

[Hanzii]

I've been rumbling about helos for a while. Just been hoping it's my newbliness and not really overpowered, but I dunno.

I /really/ suck with the wire-guided missiles, unless it's right in front of me, I'm not hitting it. If the AT kit got a heat-seeking missile upgrade, that would be real helpful. The rocket emplacements are fairly useless, especially when they draw the wrath of the withering rocket spam that's as bad or worse than anything in Planetside (the Reaver, but at least there are plenty of effective countermeasures, the Reaver is pretty fragile...)

I get most of my kills as commander, where I change roles as need (spec ops to take out the opponents assets, engineer to repair mne, sniper to oversee my artillery etc.). But second to that is Anti Tank. I dont use the wires at all on close calls as that willl get you killed - dumbfire and run. Well hidden and far away I still hit tanks that hide around a corner. And I love one hit killing Hummers or buggys tearing by you to go tyo that next flag down...

I still don't feel air is overpowered. It just feels that way, because the countermeasures are limited - without a good fighterpilot on your side or a better on the opponents, the choppers can rule the sky.
I agree that they might be a bit too solid and shouldn't be repairable from the inside. But even though I'm just an average player, I've taken down plenty using AA-emplacements and jets. Taking out the spawncampers going for the US carrier is the most fun... they keep coming back for more.

[Fabricated]

I dunno, I've gotten a lot of copter kills with the APC/buggy machine guns when assisted by another APC or people firing on it with regular rifles. I've gotten a fair share of anti-tank rocket copter kills too when they come in for captures.

Jets on the other hand, I can't even touch. I don't think I've ever managed to hit a jet with a stinger, ever.

[Hanzii]

I dunno, I've gotten a lot of copter kills with the APC/buggy machine guns when assisted by another APC or people firing on it with regular rifles. I've gotten a fair share of anti-tank rocket copter kills too when they come in for captures.

Jets on the other hand, I can't even touch. I don't think I've ever managed to hit a jet with a stinger, ever.

Doesn't matter. Jets arent dangerous the way a good pilot in BF1942 was. The number of times Ive been killed by a jet on a bombing run can be counted on one hand. Jets are for taking out choppers and other jets.

[Sky]

I agree with you on that one, Hanzii. The slower planes in '42 were goddamned deadly in the hands of a good pilot, which I was at one point in time. These BF2 aerial vehicles, though...they stymie me.

[Toast]

I've read a lot of complaints about the Stinger missiles. They seemingly have little rhyme or reason as to why they hit or miss.

Well-placed missile shots from any other weapon platform are almost infallible. I could throw a Stinger off the side of an aircraft carrier, and it would miss the ocean.

 Stingers should become a little more accurate, the inside repair thing needs to be toned down, and the overall armor should be reduced. Didn't those yahoos see Blackhawk Down?

[Hanzii]

On reflection after playing against some really good chopper pilots I agree somewhat.
Make a class with shoulderifred stingers. Not the anti-tank guy, since that would make him allround  too deadly - just some cklass with an ok secondary weapon and 3 stingers. Something you'd only pick, if your side had no competent pilots and you needed to do something about it from the ground - but the class should be purely against aircraft, not a killer on the ground too.

And make the AA-vehicles more powerfull. Right now they make a really impressive firework show, when they spit out bullets... but that's pretty much all the do. These fuckers should be death incarnate but with a limited field of fire (straight and up) and armor made of cardboard.

[Toast]

These are nice suggestions, but you realize that there is a massive illuminati-type conspiracy waged by the elite chopper and jet pilots. They have the power and the status at the top of the leaderboards, and they will do anything to keep it.

I'm pretty sure that they have infiltrated the executive ranks at DICE and EA, hence the current "I WIN" button status of air power.

[stray]

I really don't see what you guys are complaining about. How's that battle recorder thing work? I can almost guarantee you that I'll knock down at least 1 jet and 3 choppers in any given match. Sometimes more than that, just for the simple fact that those guys are always dying to return the favor --- That just makes it easier for me to expect where they're coming from the next time around.

I don't care if a chopper has an engineer or not. That's just works in my favor as far as I'm concerned. Guys like that tend to linger around in the same area because they think they're invincible. It just makes targeting easier.

[Merusk]

And make the AA-vehicles more powerfull. Right now they make a really impressive firework show, when they spit out bullets... but that's pretty much all the do. These fuckers should be death incarnate but with a limited field of fire (straight and up) and armor made of cardboard.

That'll be painful.  They're pretty damned powerful against land units as it is.  Most maps I've been on (most notably the Chineese oil field) the smart guys just ignore the air units and go in a tank-apc-AA vehicle combo (picking up an extra tank at the op. for spawn) and blast the shit out of everything.  You don't even have a chance against the AA as an anti-tank since the cone of fire is so damned large and the number of bullets he spews is obscene.  They chew through armor just as good as they do infantry, too.

[Toast]

The mobile AA station is much more useful against infantry and buggies than it is against air vehicles. That just underscores how silly the air imbalance is.

This is like playing some warped version of rock, scissors, paper where the rock isn't able to smash the scissors.

[stray]

That mobile station rocks. I don't use it enough.

[WayAbvPar]

I am still having trouble with TKs whenever I use any form of AA. I launch my missiles when I get a lock, but somehow I still manage to get team damage or teamkills. Incredibly annoying.

OTOH, I got a TK last night with an arty strike as commander (also got 3 bad guys) and immediately apologized. His response? 'np, mate- I ran right into it." I wanted to hug him.

[Hanzii]

That'll be painful.  They're pretty damned powerful against land units as it is.  Most maps I've been on (most notably the Chineese oil field) the smart guys just ignore the air units and go in a tank-apc-AA vehicle combo (picking up an extra tank at the op. for spawn) and blast the shit out of everything.  You don't even have a chance against the AA as an anti-tank since the cone of fire is so damned large and the number of bullets he spews is obscene.  They chew through armor just as good as they do infantry, too.

That's why I put emphasis on weak armor and field of fire.
As is, you only need to get below the horizon and hit them with an anti tank missile - they're not that durable.
And if youre in a tank and loose to one of these, you're a really bad player.

[Merusk]

And if youre in a tank and loose to one of these, you're a really bad player.

I play public servers.. that's all there are.  Half your team spawns as snipers, 1/4 as spec ops and the last 1/4 as medics.  They then drive the nearest vehicle (any type, just gimme a vehicle!) intothe nearest opfor base to try and cap it. Alone? Doesn't matter! One base left and it's getting assulted?! Doesn't matter I need flag cap points, byotch!

  I've watched AA chew up more armor than I care to think about. 

[Samprimary]

Why do blackhawk helicopters have more powerful armor than M1A2 tanks?

You should be able to drop a blackhawk with a tank shell, methinks.

It takes 2+ direct hits to down a helicopter. From what I can tell, it takes one rocket from the copter to blow up the tank. Balance, eh?

Yeah, it really makes no sense. Well, for the TV guided AT rocket yes, due to shooting difficulty. The rocket barrage is deadlier because any decent pilot can simply hair-trigger a full salvo right on top of a good sized area against a vast multitude of things that have no appropriate counter. Which is essentially anything on the ground short of a mobile AA.

Tank shell.

Helicopter.

Vehicles designed to have airborne maneuverability must sacrifice durability in order to achieve flight. Helicopters need very specific vulnerability to anti air explosives and just generally anything and everything that would blow a helicopter out of the sky.

[stray]

Judging by real life scenarios, choppers should be falling out of the sky of their own accord.

[Furiously]

They eventually all do.

[Sky]

I guess the game developers didn't consider the USSR's assault on Afghanistan. MEC RPGs ftw.

[sinij]

Yes helicopters are pain in the ass to take down on maps without jets but on maps with interceptors and experienced pilots they are sitting ducks and get blown out of the sky so fast it isn't funny. What really doesn't have any counters is a 2-seater jet plane - it rapes any AA with self-locking guided missiles, it rapes any ground with TV guided missiles and bombs and it holds its own just fine against another fighter jets. With some skill bombardier can keep raping ground while pilot dogfights with enemy jets.

[stray]

I just don't see it

AA stat

Air Defense

112 Kills
69 Deaths

That may not look too impressive, but I'm hardly getting owned. Also, I'm almost sure I'd have over 400 kills if I played ranked servers all the time (or the fact that some of my best matches aren't counted due to server fuckups  ). Hell, I haven't played the game that much to begin with (haven't logged in since the 9th), and I'm doing OK.

 

[penfold]

Basically, unless the chopper pilot is flying fast and at street level, he's just a big mobile target for my AT missiles. Transport choppers are particulary easy targets.  If the pilot is good enough that he's never a decent target, he deserves the feeling of invunerability that people think choppers have.

[Toast]

I just don't see it

AA stat

Air Defense

112 Kills
69 Deaths

I'm pretty sure those stats include kills made by the mobile AA battery, which is quite effective at mowing down infantry.

Incidentally, the mobile AA seems to work much better against copters than the stationary stingers (which are a joke).

I still haven't shot down a single jet. C 'est la vie.