MMO drastic changes...for the ruin?

[chinslim]

Ever since WoW's Honor System patch and subsequent Battlegrounds addition, I've been playing less WoW and I'm probably close to canceling.  Despite my anticipation for the system, I wasn't happy with its implementation.  It seems many players aren't happy either, but no system will please everyone anyways. 

It reminds me that DAOC underwent a similar thing with New Frontiers.  The game experienced a rapid cancellation rate from players who weren't happy with NF(and you can see the drop on Sir Bruce's charts).

Is the same thing happening with SWG's combat upgrade?

The point is, perhaps drastic changes to an MMO's game mechanics, no matter how badly the fanbois want it, never ends up being a good thing.  You have one chance of getting things right.  It comes before release.

[Rasix]

We've yet to see the results from WoW's battlegrounds implementation and I really doubt your canceling (along with a few others here) indicates some sort of mass exodus.  We're not the norm remember.  Anyhow, I don't consider battlegrounds a change in the core mechanic in the same vein as DAoC revamping the fronteirs or SWG's combat "upgrade".  PVP was never an integral part of my playing experience, so it was more of just something additional to do, akin to releasing a new dungeon.  I suppose on a PVP server it might shift some of the traditional action away from what is was, but you're still giong to get people griefing dungeon entrances and rogues ganking people in the plaguelands.

But, I agree that a drastic game chance to the point of overhauling a core system can result in a population swing.  Not always negative in the business sense, however.  I seem to recall UO doing better post Trammel despite that change being one of the more universally reviled events in our community's history.

Edit: I don't really like the system either.  It was implemented without a lot of factors taken into consideration. Things done half way often fail to meet expectations.  But perhaps if I hadn't hit burnout really hard at the time of it's introduction, I would have been willing to stick with it a bit longer. 

[jpark]

This surprises me.  I am having a hoot in Warsong and I would say I play in that instance about 2 times a week.  With such minimal gameplay it has given me "grunt" (sergent equivalent on Alliance?) status.  For 2 gold gave me a neat pvp/pve trinket that can break fear / stun / poly.  I have to retain the "rank" by doing some pvp each week - but this seems the sweet spot I am guessing - for minimal gameplay time in pvp you get a very decent reward.

Compared to my "pvp" experiences in Shadowbane and EQ (arena) so far I like it better.  Have not been to Alterac yet though - understand there are some problems.  As a horde player, my Ques are likely shorter as well (but hey, that's why I chose Horde in the first place).

Keeping an eye on CoH to see what they do with CoV.  Sounds like Cryptic, uncharacterstically, has fumbled with arena use in CoH.

[WayAbvPar]

I don't know if it was the Honor system, but that patch coincided with a serious drop in my play time, which eventually led to my cancellation. The grind in the late 40s got to be too much- nearly all my quests were Elite/Dungeons, so I couldn't solo them. The rest of the quests were spread out across the map so I spent much of my playtime staring at the ass end of a Wind Rider.

[Soln]

There's a rumour of approx. 50k subs + post-CU, but I expect this mostly due to former players coming back to kick the tires or newbies looking for a jag-on after Episode3.  The reality is some like it, and there's seems to be more people playing (never as many in the first year).  But I never see more than maybe 10 people in the Coro Starport on a Fri night.  I presume they are all on Wookie world, which I haven't bought and won't.

So it seems:
--there's a net increase
--there's an unforgiveable amount of bugs in new combat and all the expansions quests
--GCW PvP is still broken (no tracking of sides)

I expect there will be a decrease in activity and eventually subs as the novelty of the CU for new and returning players wears off, and Wookie world content is finished.  So meh.

[HRose]

It seems many players aren't happy either, but no system will please everyone anyways.

Nope sorry, there are no easy excuses.

The whole PvP implementation sucks and I took it as a personal crusade since May of the last year. It *objectively* sucks. That's not an opinion.

WoW's PvP had a HUGE potential, that's the point. There was a lot to do and instead we got the worst of the worst. So no excuses, and I saw this coming since the first details in January.

[Raguel]

I think implementation (and I suppose testing) is the problem, not necessarily change itself. As a player I know I've scratched my head a few times, wondering why in the world devs make the decisions they do (e.g. ToA). 

[Xanthippe]

I got bored playing on a pve server on my horde rogue at 53 (and a few 20somethings), so I left for a pvp server and got an alliance hunter to 48 (and my shirtmaker priest to 24) when the "honor" patch went in. 

Since the honor patch encouraged repeated ganking, questing no longer was fun for me, so I quit playing.  Sub runs out in July, I think.

I'd be back if they'd implement the system they talked about pre-launch - honor _and_ dishonor.  Player justice systems have always appealed to me.  I particularly liked how some npcs would not have anything to do with dishonorable players, and other players of the same faction could pk dishonorable players.  Alas, this was not what the honor system turned out to be.

The pvp on WoW was some of the worst I've ever seen, in terms of being unfun.  Not that I've seen that much, but rvr on DAOC was hugely better, as was the pking on the mud I used to play on.

I had such hopes, too.  Sigh.

[Paelos]

I really don't get the hate for the pvp. I think its MUCH more fun than DAOC RvR. Woot, lets be forced to find the perfect group so we run around in Emain so I can spend most of my fight mezzed. Granted, I didn't mess with NF much because, lets face it, the game was long in the tooth when it finally arrived along with the magic that was ToA. Do you people not remember CC's in DAOC? Or the constant LFG shit? It was soul-killingly stupid.

I have fun in WoW. I have lots of fun in Alterac. The thing that needs most improvement is the imbalance, which is something EVERY game faces. What are you pissed about? The fact they added a PvP grind? Honestly, my bet is that you people that are pissed were on PvP servers, and you're really quite naive if you couldn't read the writing on the wall there. PvP servers have always equalled ganking. You knew the system would incentivize it as every MMOG in history has.

The honor system doesn't objectively suck, and as usual HRose is still an idiot.

[Xanthippe]

I really don't get the hate for the pvp. I think its MUCH more fun than DAOC RvR. Woot, lets be forced to find the perfect group so we run around in Emain so I can spend most of my fight mezzed. Granted, I didn't mess with NF much because, lets face it, the game was long in the tooth when it finally arrived along with the magic that was ToA. Do you people not remember CC's in DAOC? Or the constant LFG shit? It was soul-killingly stupid.

I didn't spend any time looking for a group or running around Emain.  I spent most of my time in the Midgard frontier defending or taking keeps, and was in a guild/alliance that was interested chiefly in defense since we were outnumbered 2x1 by the Albs.  It was a lot of fun.  ToA was an awful expansion, agreed, and it ruined me for NF such that I never really got into it.  But before ToA, pvp in DAOC was a great deal of fun.  (Afterwards, it was moderately fun for me only in the battlegrounds - but not fun enough to keep me paying $15/month or whatever).

I have fun in WoW. I have lots of fun in Alterac. The thing that needs most improvement is the imbalance, which is something EVERY game faces. What are you pissed about? The fact they added a PvP grind? Honestly, my bet is that you people that are pissed were on PvP servers, and you're really quite naive if you couldn't read the writing on the wall there. PvP servers have always equalled ganking. You knew the system would incentivize it as every MMOG in history has.

I expected the honor system as it was advertised - complete with dishonor.  Not a system that encouraged ganking.  It's really stupid to introduce a system where people are rewarded when they gank xpers.  The 60's ganked the 50's who ganked the 40's who ganked the 30's...

Maybe ganking is fun for the ganker (I've never found it so).  It's certainly not fun for the gankee.  There was a HUGE difference before and after the honor system patch on pvp servers for those who were not yet 60.  Being farmed for points when you're 8 levels below others is just plain stupid.  Farming others for points when they're 8 levels below you is just plain stupid.  Rewarding people for doing so is just plain stupid.

Maybe I am naive, but I continue to hope for a pvp system that incorporates human behavioral traits in such a way as to encourage the type of play that I want in a virtual world - which means not farming points, whether it's Emain or Alterac.  I had great hopes for the WoW honor/dishonor system.  It's too bad Blizzard didn't stick to their original idea.

The honor system doesn't objectively suck, and as usual HRose is still an idiot.

I haven't played the new battlegrounds, because I quit playing soon after the honor patch, so maybe the honor system doesn't objectively suck.  It does, unequivocally, suck for me.

[Paelos]

My point was the people that are bitching are the ones on PvP servers. And they are bitching about ganking, which is essentially EXACTLY what the PvP ruleset encourages simply by existing. PvE servers, which are in the majority, have zero problems with ganking. Battle is confined to the BGs.

In short, all the PvP server people knew this was coming. Even if you believed in "dishonor" it certainly wasn't going to stop the people from picking on people lower than they are. That was the nature of the beast. As a 60, you aren't rewarded heavily for killing people much lower than you. It's only the PvP servers complaining about dishonor, because with the BG's in PvE servers, they don't care anymore.

[Threash]

Dishonor was a retarded idea and im personally glad it was scraped.  There was just as much ganking before the honor patch, all honor did was move 90% of the fighting to one zone.  I don't get the hate either, i thought pvp was much better after the honor patch and a shit load better than that now that battlegrounds are in.  When they fix all the problems with them its going to be even better.  My play time has skyrocketed since the bg patch.

[Margalis]

The original point of the honor system was to discourage ganking. That's why it was called the "honor" system, and that's why people are pissed.

This is like the Bush administration: Hey, we lied about going to war, but you should have figured that out, so it's no biggy!

Hey, we promised an honor system and delivered the opposite, but you should have figured out the system was impossible, so no biggy!

I doubt the honor/dishonor would have worked - which is why they shouldn't have announced it until they had it working in a test environment at least. The whole name honor system is retarded - gank system would be a better name. Or kill points. Frag meter.

[chinslim]

I really don't get the hate for the pvp. I think its MUCH more fun than DAOC RvR. Woot, lets be forced to find the perfect group so we run around in Emain so I can spend most of my fight mezzed. Granted, I didn't mess with NF much because, lets face it, the game was long in the tooth when it finally arrived along with the magic that was ToA. Do you people not remember CC's in DAOC? Or the constant LFG shit? It was soul-killingly stupid.

I have fun in WoW. I have lots of fun in Alterac. The thing that needs most improvement is the imbalance, which is something EVERY game faces. What are you pissed about? The fact they added a PvP grind? Honestly, my bet is that you people that are pissed were on PvP servers, and you're really quite naive if you couldn't read the writing on the wall there. PvP servers have always equalled ganking. You knew the system would incentivize it as every MMOG in history has.

The honor system doesn't objectively suck, and as usual HRose is still an idiot.

The mechanics of WoW PVP are great.  The classes are as balanced as you'd find anywhere and tactics and "spell order" matter in determining outcomes.  It's the Honor System and BG's that suck.  I could PvP for a moderate amount of time week in and week out and basically go nowhere.  Hell, if I had to put effort into anything for small gains or maintain a status quo but face possible decay on temporary neglect, I may as well hit the gym.  Furthermore, you never know until the end of each week whether your efforts paid off or not.  If PvP is to be turned into a points grind, at least let the results accumulate instead of being erased every week.  Note, it doesn't help that I play a priest, so PvP rewards for caster itemization suck anyways.

Also, I play on a pvp server.  The pvp dynamics pre-Honor patch settled down to where you could run into a "red" and not be sure what would happen because the pvp wasn't worth anything.  Most times, you'd ignore each other.  Sometimes, you got sucked into a blood feud lasting for hours.  Now, it's just automatic fighting because of CP.  I've done more than my share of ganking, I don't find it appealing, but I feel compelled to because of the CP.

I loved the concept of DAOC RvR (and I'm probably headed back there) because the outcomes affect the whole server and get everyone involved.  You simply don't get that in instanced battlegounds.

[Paelos]

I don't think we are far from seeing server wide bonuses for pvp wins in the BGs. I think once they tweak the systems to where they are winnable in a decent amount of time, you're going to see records tied to server wide rewards. I personally think that would be a great way to get the underpopulated servers to actually get into Alterac. Say, for example, whoever won the most current Alterac BG earned a 5% xp bonus for his faction in PvE, and if you were underpopulated, you won 10% each time you held the BG. I think that would really bolster attendence, just as an example.

[Xanthippe]

Also, I play on a pvp server.  The pvp dynamics pre-Honor patch settled down to where you could run into a "red" and not be sure what would happen because the pvp wasn't worth anything.  Most times, you'd ignore each other.  Sometimes, you got sucked into a blood feud lasting for hours.  Now, it's just automatic fighting because of CP.  I've done more than my share of ganking, I don't find it appealing, but I feel compelled to because of the CP.

Exactly.  Pre-honor patch, the pvp servers were actually pretty calm, and it seemed to me to be a more enjoyable experience to play.  Meeting a red didn't automatically mean a fight.  Sometimes a wave and moving on would happen, sometimes a dance, sometimes a fight, sometimes each ignoring the other.  It seemed more like opposing realms that don't get along rather than constant all-out war.

The ganking occurs because it's encouraged and rewarded.  I don't like ganking nor being ganked, so I quit playing.  I also don't like the pve servers, because it feels contrived - the whole alliance vs. horde thing.  I guess I like not knowing exactly what will happen - it feels more organic to me in a virtual world.

[Shockeye]

Hmm, it seems strange to me that there wouldn't be ganking all the time on PVP servers regardless of honor. Wouldn't you always want to keep the opposing group out of your areas and away from your lands regardless of level?

[Threash]

Hmm, it seems strange to me that there wouldn't be ganking all the time on PVP servers regardless of honor. Wouldn't you always want to keep the opposing group out of your areas and away from your lands regardless of level?

There was tons of ganking before the honor system, i don't know what pvp servers you all played on because in both the ones i did there was no "calm", there was no question wether a red would attack you or not.  It was always pretty simple to tell: if they where higher than you they would attack, if they had more numbers than you they would attack, if you where busy fighting a mob they would attack.  None of that changed.  And frankly anyone playing on a pvp server that complains about ganking needs to STFU, you don't go to an rp server and complain about the rping fags.

[Shockeye]

There was tons of ganking before the honor system, i don't know what pvp servers you all played on because in both the ones i did there was no "calm", there was no question wether a red would attack you or not.  It was always pretty simple to tell: if they where higher than you they would attack, if they had more numbers than you they would attack, if you where busy fighting a mob they would attack.  None of that changed.  And frankly anyone playing on a pvp server that complains about ganking needs to STFU, you don't go to an rp server and complain about the rping fags.

I agree that if you're on a PVP server, you should always expect to be attacked or to attack.

As for complaining about RPing on an RP server, you're allowed to complain once it crosses a certain line.

[Morfiend]

Hmm, it seems strange to me that there wouldn't be ganking all the time on PVP servers regardless of honor. Wouldn't you always want to keep the opposing group out of your areas and away from your lands regardless of level?

There was tons of ganking before the honor system, i don't know what pvp servers you all played on because in both the ones i did there was no "calm", there was no question wether a red would attack you or not.  It was always pretty simple to tell: if they where higher than you they would attack, if they had more numbers than you they would attack, if you where busy fighting a mob they would attack.  None of that changed.  And frankly anyone playing on a pvp server that complains about ganking needs to STFU, you don't go to an rp server and complain about the rping fags.

On my server, a lot of times Alliance would /wave and go on their way, and Horde would do the same. You could always count on certen guilds to attack on sight. It was a lot of fun. Now, you know they will ether run or attack. Always.

I hate the honor system. It promotes Honor Grinding and solo play. And if you want any kind of decent rewards from it, you need to pvp atleast 2 to 3 hours a day. And to get high end stuff your talking about 8+ hours a day, forever. Also, with dishonor, you can no longer take over enemy towns, or you will get DKs. My friend got 5 DKs and instantly ranked down. Another friend got 10 DKs and instantly ranked down. Basicaly they are forcing every one in to very steralized, safe pvp. And its not fun. For a PVE server I think the system is great, but for a PVP server, it sucks.

As to a mass exodus, I dont think its that drastic, but since release we have probably had 10 people quit the game, from my guild. Since the Battlegrounds patch, we have had almost 20 people quit the game. Or not play very much because they feel it is sucking the fun away.

I personally am on the verge of quitting also. And its a bummer, because I really liked the game.

[Paelos]

All I can say for the PvP servers complaining about the rewards, did you really expect to be billy-badass-champion-of-the-horde by pvping for an hour a day? Either the game was going to be based on ranks between players, or simple numerical ranks independant of player input. In scenario two, that would mean everyone and their pet would be a Master General Uber whatever after a period of time. IMO, that's stupid. All chiefs and no indians. At least in this system, the crazies who pvp the most, and therefore would obviously have the most knowledge of it through simple time investment, are going to be the top ranked officers.

So unless you want to hold a popularity contest to promote your officers, I think the system is working just fine.

[Tale]

But your thinking is based on everyone being 60.

My real life is more demanding on my time than when I was an EverQuest player, so I didn't make it to 60 in WoW before the honour system was introduced on my PvP server. I therefore became a target for higher level people, who now stood to gain more than amusement from killing me, and the game became unfun and unplayable. People who reached 60 before the honour system was implemented had a much easier time. Why the fuck should I now be required to find a group for safety and/or level 60 friends to watch over me, when other people didn't? Another win for the catasses (consistent theme with WoW, remember the "highest level wins" contest in open beta?).

It made me lose interest in WoW. Then my guild on the PvP server broke up and my friends restarted on a Normal rules server (I refuse to call it PvE, because it's not), so I joined them. Much more fun, plenty of PvP raiding, battleground skill and more.

[TheWalrus]

  I haven't stepped foot in the BGs yet, but then, I'm still playin catch up to everyone else in my guild. I'm a quest whore, have to finish every one I pick up, so I frantically try and get all the green ones done before they hit grey. Which in the end, slows me down.

 As far as changes since implementation, I haven't really noticed any to be honest. I play Horde on Sargeras, and it seems like the same amount of ganking/city camping still happens. Ya know the ol if its red its dead rule.  Alliance still run in and own Freewind Post, Sun Rock Retreat, and well, pretty much anything but our capitals. 

 My only gripe about the whole thing is placement of alliance entrance in Hillsbrad. Used to be, they were so concentrated on destroying Tarren Mill that you could quest in peace, almost counting on them not being anywhere but at the city. Now theres an alliance highway that makes questing impossible for lowbies because the 60s run by and one shot. All day long. But that is my only complaint. At least they finally put guards on the zep towers so its harder for alliance to shut down our travel.

[Hanzii]

But your thinking is based on everyone being 60.

My real life is more demanding on my time than when I was an EverQuest player, so I didn't make it to 60 in WoW before the honour system was introduced on my PvP server. I therefore became a target for higher level people, who now stood to gain more than amusement from killing me, and the game became unfun and unplayable. People who reached 60 before the honour system was implemented had a much easier time. Why the fuck should I now be required to find a group for safety and/or level 60 friends to watch over me, when other people didn't?

Don't play on a PvP server. It's stupid (and your own damn fault).
Just like every other game since EQ (except Shadowbane which have it's own set of problems... and Eve, which I find hard to classify as a game) WoW is a PvE game with PvP bolted on... anybody picking a PvP-server with that ruleset asked for it. Apart from the queing, BG s working as intended on the vanilla servers and people enjoy their ranks.
And just like any other thing in the game you need to grind for... it's optional content. I for one survives just fine without raid-drops and stuff gained by having a high rank.

And it's been said before, these games aren't supposed to last forever. Nothing is. They stop being fun for all of us eventually. It's a game - move on.

[Xanthippe]

The idea that anyone who plays on a pvp server deserves whatever sort of shitty behavior occurs, and that no one has the right to complain about anything that happens (except those who play on pve) is unmitigated bullshit.

Now, it's a given that the lowlifes will populate a pvp server.  But a pvp server does not have to mean that anything goes as far as behavior, and frankly, it's wearing thin to continually run across this meme here.

The honor/dishonor system was originally advertised as being a way to give people incentives to pvp in a non-gankable way.  The honor system, as put in - without dishonor for ganking, without even knowing immediately what the results of pvping are - is the complete opposite of the original idea in that it _rewards_ and thus encourages dishonorable killing.

People who played on a pvp system have a legitimate reason to feel ripped off.

Sure, one solution is to not play on a pvp server.  Another solution is to quit playing altogether. 

Saying one has no right to complain is akin to saying one has no right to complain about any game - just stop playing.  Which is patently ridiculous.

I continue to have a glimmer of hope that one day some game will get pvp right. 

[Paelos]

The idea that anyone who plays on a pvp server deserves whatever sort of shitty behavior occurs, and that no one has the right to complain about anything that happens (except those who play on pve) is unmitigated bullshit.

You're missing our point. You have every right to complain about some things. When there are bugs, when there are problems in the game that are unbalancing, etc. What we are saying is that you CHOSE a variant ruleset server based on the idea that the strong will prey on the weak anywhere anytime. Then, you bitch about encouraging ganking. My point is simple, even if they offered dishonor, it wouldn't stop the ganking of people in certain zones that is happening now. The 50s would still jack the 40s on down the line. Nothing would be different except for the fact you may not get as many 60s in 30 zones. If that is happening a lot, those people are simply assholes who would still gank you.

Get this if you get nothing else. Dishonor wouldn't have stopped the ganking. Not even close. So just stop looking at it through rose-colored glasses, and stop telling us there was a nice happy land of reds not ganking each other before the system. That's the unmitigated bullshit.

[Threash]

The idea that anyone who plays on a pvp server deserves whatever sort of shitty behavior occurs, and that no one has the right to complain about anything that happens (except those who play on pve) is unmitigated bullshit.

Now, it's a given that the lowlifes will populate a pvp server.  But a pvp server does not have to mean that anything goes as far as behavior, and frankly, it's wearing thin to continually run across this meme here.

The honor/dishonor system was originally advertised as being a way to give people incentives to pvp in a non-gankable way.  The honor system, as put in - without dishonor for ganking, without even knowing immediately what the results of pvping are - is the complete opposite of the original idea in that it _rewards_ and thus encourages dishonorable killing.

People who played on a pvp system have a legitimate reason to feel ripped off.

Sure, one solution is to not play on a pvp server.  Another solution is to quit playing altogether. 

Saying one has no right to complain is akin to saying one has no right to complain about any game - just stop playing.  Which is patently ridiculous.

I continue to have a glimmer of hope that one day some game will get pvp right. 

Any kill that gives rewards under the current system would still give rewards with dishonor.  If you are level 48 and get ganked by a 60 guess what? even with dishonor you are still a honorable kill.  All dishonor would have added is lowbie griefers.

[Kail]

You're missing our point. You have every right to complain about some things. When there are bugs, when there are problems in the game that are unbalancing, etc. What we are saying is that you CHOSE a variant ruleset server based on the idea that the strong will prey on the weak anywhere anytime. Then, you bitch about encouraging ganking.

I'm not sure that the bitching is about ganking so much as the fact that the game isn't fun.  People (some people, anyway) signed up for PvP servers understanding that there would be ganking going on, and they're fine with that.  What they're not fine with is the changes to that mechanic with the Honor System and all, and they'd like to see the game become more enjoyable.  If you're saying that they deserve punishment for selecting a PvP server, I'm not sure what kind of a response you'd be happy with.  You can't just jump up and shout "STOOPID, YOU SO STOOOOOPIIIIIID" and expect it to generate a useful conversation.

To go back to the original post, I think that yeah, most dramatic changes to a game are going to loose players, especially im MMORPGs, where you've got characters who persist through these changes.  Personally, when I rolled up a character, I thought PvP sounded like great fun, so I played on a PvP server for a while.  I hated it, so I changed to a normal server to avoid the ganking.  I haven't played since the Honor System went online, but I have friends who have, and all you have to do is say the words "Tarren Mill" and they collapse into a gibbering, frothing heap.  They wanted a game with minimal PvP, and they got it, put X number of hours into advancing their character, but now, suddenly, they have Alliance soldiers razing their town every half hour as a result of "improvements" to the gameplay.  That, I think, is the major problem with the Honor System and with most drastic changes to MMORPGs: when the designer changes the world like that, a lot of people are going to find that the character they spend forty hours levelling up is no longer fun, or feasable, or whatever.  The "right" way to implement major changes like this would be to make them optional, like the Battlegrounds.  Nobody bitches about the battlegrounds, because nobody is forced into them, and the effects they have on people who don't participate (like, maybe the guy you're facing has a slightly more uber sword or something) are minimal.  The wrong way to implement changes would me to make them mandatory, like the Honor System.  There is no way for players to opt out of the Honor System; the devs just descended from on high one day and said "Hey, guess what, now people will be rewarded for killing you, have fun" and it was so.  Regardless of your opinion of PvP, that's not the ideal way to treat your players.

[Margalis]

You're missing our point. You have every right to complain about some things. When there are bugs, when there are problems in the game that are unbalancing, etc. What we are saying is that you CHOSE a variant ruleset server based on the idea that the strong will prey on the weak anywhere anytime.

No, YOU are the one missing the point. Blizzard promised many times that they were very aware of the strong preying on the weak and were introducing the honor system to correct that.

Your logic is akin to the following: I hand you something and say it's water, you drink it, it's poison, you die, and it's your fault.

The mistake people made was taking Blizzard at their word and assuming they would deliver what they promised. Or did you miss the 5000 or so posts to the tune of "this isn't the system you promised and now I want to move to a PvE server."

Any kill that gives rewards under the current system would still give rewards with dishonor.  If you are level 48 and get ganked by a 60 guess what? even with dishonor you are still a honorable kill.

Making shit up is fun isn't it. Here, let me change this around for you:

Any kill that gives rewards under the current system would make your machine catch fire with dishonor.

Makes just as much sense. Since we don't know how dishonor would be implemented, it's stupid to make claims about it. However the Blizzard releases on the subject make it clear that the original point of the honor system was to discourage that sort of thing.

[Paelos]

Listen to yourself Margalis. Blizzard promised x and delivered y. Blizzard said it was water and you got poison. At what point do you think that people on this site became jaded towards developers and don't believe, nay KNOW, that will be the standard case.

I'm not saying Blizzard didn't fail to follow through. I'm not even saying that you shouldn't feel gipped by the game for what's going on. What I am saying is that PvP without ganking and/or the crap you deal with is a pipe dream. You can argue that we don't know the system because it was never applied, but even then, it's a simple matter. Suppose every kill under your lvl is dishonorable. What you've done then is shift the power to the lower levels. They can then attack with impunity. Does that make for better PvP? What about groups of people? What about who attacks first? What about attacking first, and then people assisting? It's a series of fucking loopholes, it DOESN'T WORK. Get over it. The system was broken from the get-go.

[Trippy]

The mistake people made was taking Blizzard at their word and assuming they would deliver what they promised. Or did you miss the 5000 or so posts to the tune of "this isn't the system you promised and now I want to move to a PvE server."

While Blizzard originally said there would be dishonor they changed their mind a long, long time ago (in MMORPG years). Complaining about it now is kind of useless. This is also why they don't tell us anything concrete about upcoming stuff. They got burned badly when they said they couldn't figure out how develop to an exploit-free dishonor system so now they just keep their mouths shut.

[Velorath]

Gotta agree with Paelos on this one.  Anyone who believed that Blizzard had the magical cure to stop griefing in PVP just because the promised they could, was fooling himself.  Instead of poison in the analogy, let's use the less fatal example of urine.  Now let's say for the past several years, MMO devs have been offering you glasses of urine claiming they're water.  Then Blizzard comes up to you with a cup filled to the brim with a warm, steaming, yellowish liquid telling you it's some nice refreshing spring water and you make the mistake of guzzling it down.

The rest of us have two options.  We can get pissed off at the guys who keep trying to trick us into drinking urine, but that never seems to do much good, or we can tell the latest victims not to drink the fucking urine next time.  You're right Margalis, the mistake people made was taking Blizzard at their word and assuming they would deliver what they promised.

[WindupAtheist]

Blizzard's proposed "dishonor" system would have prevented exactly jack and shit.  It's penalties were positively trifling compared to the "statloss" system of UO, and that never prevented shit either.

[Hanzii]

No, YOU are the one missing the point. Blizzard promised many times that they were very aware of the strong preying on the weak and were introducing the honor system to correct that.

Your logic is akin to the following: I hand you something and say it's water, you drink it, it's poison, you die, and it's your fault.

The mistake people made was taking Blizzard at their word and assuming they would deliver what they promised. Or did you miss the 5000 or so posts to the tune of "this isn't the system you promised and now I want to move to a PvE server."

No, the idiot mistake people made, was (yet again) believing that it was possible to graft a PvP system onto a PvE designed game and that Blizzard would somehow succeed where everybody else failed.
That might be understandable if WoW was your first ever MMOG, but anybody posting on this site and part of this community should really know better by now.

[Tale]

Don't play on a PvP server. It's stupid (and your own damn fault).
Just like every other game since EQ (except Shadowbane which have it's own set of problems... and Eve, which I find hard to classify as a game) WoW is a PvE game with PvP bolted on... anybody picking a PvP-server with that ruleset asked for it. Apart from the queing, BG s working as intended on the vanilla servers and people enjoy their ranks.
And just like any other thing in the game you need to grind for... it's optional content. I for one survives just fine without raid-drops and stuff gained by having a high rank.
And it's been said before, these games aren't supposed to last forever. Nothing is. They stop being fun for all of us eventually. It's a game - move on.

The word that popped into my head when I read your first few lines was "bullshit", same word someone else used. People who instantly say "well don't play on a PvP server" must be playing alone. I play MMORPGs with a large group of people who have been guilded together since 1999 (some since 1997). The majority chose a WoW PvP server, so I went with them and I don't regret it, because they continue to add fun, skill and knowledge to my gaming experience.

When we started on the PvP server, the honour system as implemented had not been announced. The printed game manual describes what we knew: that there would be an honour/dishonour balance system to discourage ganking. The abandonment of dishonour was announced later, and the actual honour system was not revealed until months after that. The implementation was also supposed to occur shortly after launch, not six months later when everyone was established on their servers.