Alliance/Horde Imbalances

[Jeff Kelly]

According to sites like http://www.warcraftrealms.com/ most Servers have some kind of Horde/Alliance imbalance. On most servers Alliance outnumbers Horde although the ratio might differ from server to server. Some servers are nearly balanced (1,2:1 in favor to Alliance) while on some others Horde is outnumbered (1,7 - 2:1). One can argue as to the validity of the numbers these sites produce but in my opinion these numbers are at  least a rough approximation of real numbers (although Blizzard denies that)

Now the first european server is about to be killed because of Alliance outnumbering horde. On german frostwolf players favor Alliance over horde in such a way that less than 20% of the players on frostwolf are horde (according to the census sites) since it is a PvP server those few horde players have a really hard time playing. Remember the Tarren Mill zergfests? On frostwolf Alliance usually camps the entrance of Orgrimmar or Undercity and the major instance portals without much resistance. This leads to more and more horde players leaving the server and will in due time lead to only alliance players playing. How is the situation in the US are there servers who bleed people because of one side outnumbering the other?

Jeff

[jpark]

If we talk about non-PvP servers, as a Horde player I think this imbalance is great.

Until now it has been brutal with the zerging at TM.  But as last night Warsong instance showed - Alliance lost every fight I was involved with or heard about.  The numerical superiority of Alliance makes them fat.  And that makes for a lot of fun for Horde players in balanced encounters in a pvp instance.

Last night's victories over alliance were so ubiquitous people in the que expressed open genuine concern that maybe Alliance would stop entering the instance.

I like the imbalance because - my prediction - is that it will give Horde players more opportunities to instance pvp since there will be many Alliance players waiting for a fight.

[Ironwood]

It is yet another facet of an online game that blizzard didn't think about.  They should have implemented a side balancing mechanic on player creation.  They didn't.  It's going to suck from here on in.

[Sogrinaugh]

Well magtheridon has a alliance/horde imbalance ratio of 1.3/1 in terms of character number, but a 1.8/1 (80% more) in terms of activity of 50+ players.

The imbalance is noticeable in that frequently you go somewhere and thiers usually alliance but frequently no horde, but the imbalance isn't so severe that you feel helpless, at least not most of the time.

I have worried about this "snowball" effect of horde players leaving as well, on a pvp server i could only see it becoming worse over time once one side gets a really decisive advantage, though i can't really think of any solution, and apparently, neither could blizzard.

[penfold]

The imbalance on my server is highly noticeble, both in the huge cliched mass of alliance outside TM, and the item packed Azerothian Walmart that is their AH. It's Euro patch day today and so far our Alterac BG hasnt even started yet, as you need a minimum number of people on each side in the queue.

What horde are PVPing are probably in the (35+ mins so far) CTF queue. It will get better im sure but right now its a bit of a farce.

[Amp]

Holy crap some of those servers are out of balance.

Elune EST PVE 10,559 (91%) 991 (9%) 10.7 : 1 11,550

That must be one boring server.

[penfold]

Holy crap some of those servers are out of balance.

Elune EST PVE 10,559 (91%) 991 (9%) 10.7 : 1 11,550

That must be one boring server.

There's not a single Horde player on that server running the census mod i guess.

My server lists alliance outnumbering us 70/30, which feels about right.  I hope the alliance are enjoying their queues. The horde ones are bad enough, but over on the other side they will be so long the alliance have taken to dressing up as Star Wars characters, sleeping rough and running their own queue experience blogs.

[jpark]

Let's take a another look at imblance:

What if after several weeks of Warsong instances, Alliance continues to lose consistently against the Horde?

Right now, to their credit, a number of Alliance players see the Horde as having better strategies after being zerged for so long at TM.  If this reasoning is correct, as they state, it should wins should equalize in a few weeks as Alliance learns to play proper pvp.

If Horde victories continue does this mean that Horde racials are overpowered, or the shaman is overpowered, and should be nerfed?

I see two unrelated issues here:

1.  Alliance Class Frequency - Paladins.  Paladins are ubiquitous and not often played in a group support role.  The very frequency of this class choice may be impairing alliance performance, which has nothing to do with Horde being overpowered.

2.  If the Shaman or Horde racial abilities receive a nerf - this can only FURTHER decrease the number of players choosing this side to play.  The implications from there need no stating.

[Ironwood]

It will balance out.  The 'winning' disparity, that is.

The actual amount of A vs H probably won't.  For that they need to think why it exists in the first place.

[NiX]

You all talk as if Alliance is always the bigger force. On my server it's 1:1.7 in the favor of horde. Had I known this when I went to barrens last night to do my Succubus quest I wouldn't of tried to help the stupid level 30 group that went after a 50-60 shaman. I was surprised I made it anywhere close to barrens having ran past tons of horde players.

[Slayerik]

We outnumbered prolly around 1.8 - 1 on shadowmoon (we being horde) but we are better overall PVPers...

[Ironwood]

You all talk as if Alliance is always the bigger force.

Yeah.  So ?

[NiX]

Yeah.  So ?

Sorry I had my own opinion.

[Paelos]

The truth is Nix, on your average server the Horde is woefully outnumbered. My solution to fixing this would be to offer xp bonuses to the horde sides. Preferrably I'd like to see an incremental bonus to the amount of rest time earned in an 8 hour period depending on the overall imbalance. Show the catasses they can level to 60 faster and becoming battle ready sooner. You might get some converts.

[Abel]

My solution to fixing this would be to offer xp bonuses to the horde sides. Preferrably I'd like to see an incremental bonus to the amount of rest time earned in an 8 hour period depending on the overall imbalance.

This is one of the things Mythic tried to balance populations in DAoC. Not much effect. You draw some "tourists" who want to quickly roll up the latest fotm, but rarely those players stay for the long haul.

DAoC is probably a good lesson for Blizzard as Mythic tried unsuccesfully several techniques to balance things out.

Just like now in WoW BGs, in DAoC RvR the overpopulated realm (mostly Albion) seriously underperformed and the smaller realms (usually Hibernia) could match the opposition without much trouble. Albion became the skill-less "zerg" realm, while Hibernia developed into a tightly-knit effective fighting force. End result: balance in the frontiers, as long as the population difference isn't *too* big.

[Paelos]

Considering I played Hibernia on the Lancelot server (we were vastly underpopulated) I know how it goes to be the underdog. Mythic didn't really do what I'm talking about. They simply offered free level bonus starts to people that ALREADY had 50s on a server. See, to me your target audience is the people who haven't maxxed out yet. They aren't fully attached to the server and they could go either way if you give them a reason. Also, in a drastic scenario, I think they should offer character defections. Take whatever level you are now, and you can go to the Horde side with a level decrease and no loot.

[Typhon]

they should add a few more BGs. then start to release server pop numbers to players. then make it clear to players trying to get into the battlegrounds that they are waiting because they are on the fat side on that server.  self interest makes people do the smart thing, but you got to give them enough information to make a self-interested decision.

[Mesozoic]

At least Mythic had the sense to make sure that each realm had a human race option.  Even then, the realm population advantage went to the realm whose racial options were simply four shades of humanity.

Adding to WoW's WoE's is that the NEs are on the same side.

[eldaec]

Considering I played Hibernia on the Lancelot server (we were vastly underpopulated) I know how it goes to be the underdog. Mythic didn't really do what I'm talking about. They simply offered free level bonus starts to people that ALREADY had 50s on a server.

This isn't all Mythic did.

Mythic also give a free level of xp every x days where x varies by population balance. Underpopulated realms have reduced costs for keep siege hookpoints and npc guards. Underpopulated realms get a % bonus to RP, XP, BP, arti-XP and coin drop. Underpopulated realms get extra xp camp bonuses.

It still doesn't work.

[eldaec]

At least Mythic had the sense to make sure that each realm had a human race option.  Even then, the realm population advantage went to the realm whose racial options were simply four shades of humanity.

Also, to the realm that doesn't look like ass. I played Alb, mostly because I almost always play an archer with my first character in these things, and Alb had the pure archer. When I went back to have a go at hibgard, I spent a fair bit of time wondering how the hell hibgard players put up with that crap.

From what I gather, WoW has similar though less pronounced issues.

[Abel]

In DAoC Mid/Hib have generally better and more interesting classes, level faster, have a better community and recieve a whole range of bonuses. Yet *still* Albion holds more people. The lesson is pretty simple:

Side choice is purely based on psychological factors. People pick what they can associate best with, so make sure they can associate equally well with ALL your games' sides.

For WoW it's allready too late to change the design. Blizzards solution to the imbalance problem has been to institute waiting lines, but frankly that's a pretty awful way to enforce balance.

Character defection is a more interesting one 

[jpark]

A broader philosophical point might be raised here:

Is there an imbalance if one side is more powerful or more numerous than it should be?

I don't whether Horde racials or the shaman class are "overpowered".  That kind of argument misses the point.  The Horde is underpowered from a pragmatic point view that its population is barely sufficient to support the design intent of the game (us vs. them). 

Horde population can be increased through any number of simple measures:  offer more races on the Horde side; Offer another Class on the Horde side; increase the power of Horde Racials.

[ajax34i]

Horde population can be increased through any number of simple measures:  offer more races on the Horde side; Offer another Class on the Horde side; increase the power of Horde Racials.

These are not simple measures.  However they buff the Horde side has to be nerfable, because once Alliance and Horde numbers get equal, they need to take the Horde advantages away and make things balanced. 

However they buff the Horde side has to be noticeable, too, in a big way, because otherwise it'll take years for people to switch.  It should be a big advantage, enough to entice people to drop their level 60 Alliance characters and start new Horde level 1's.

So, let's see, they need to add a big carrot to the Horde side that they can then take away without causing an uproar.  Doable?

[schild]

Evil Elves.

[Fabricated]

I didn't play horde because I found their continent and quests to be incredibly boring. I fucking hate Kalimdor.

Of course, you can experience this same dullness on Alliance by starting a night elf character.

[Zetor]

increase the power of Horde Racials.

Say what? The only usable alliance racial is Shadowmeld, and it can be countered easily if the enemy knows what they're doing. WOTF and Warstomp >>> every other racial in existence.

Escape artist.. laff.


-- Z.

[Merusk]

Evil Elves.

This idea has been kicked around more than one place.  Blood Elves = Horde Expansion race.  It'd probably work, too.

[SurfD]

Horde dont need elves.  Not even sure if Blood Elves would really go horde side anyhow.  What we really need is: Goblins, Ogres, or maybe even Naga (Illadin joins the horde, brings his Naga in as a playable faction?)

[ajax34i]

Adding 3 races to the Horde side would be a good incentive only if they don't add anything to the Alliance side.  I don't see them doing that.  If each side gets 3 new playable races, people will continue to prefer the Alliance.  Goblins, Ogres, and Naga sound interesting, but so do Centaurs, Dryads, whatever those cute half-naked female/deer are, Ents, and a myriad other eye-candy options they cold go with for the Alliance.

[jpark]

they should add a few more BGs. then start to release server pop numbers to players. then make it clear to players trying to get into the battlegrounds that they are waiting because they are on the fat side on that server.  self interest makes people do the smart thing, but you got to give them enough information to make a self-interested decision.

Good idea but lots of folks who played during beta are on the alliance side.  They knew the stats - yet they still chose alliance.  During beta I heard at one point the NE population outnumbered the entire horde population.

[jpark]

increase the power of Horde Racials.

Say what? The only usable alliance racial is Shadowmeld, and it can be countered easily if the enemy knows what they're doing. WOTF and Warstomp >>> every other racial in existence.

Escape artist.. laff.


-- Z.

I am tempted to meet this shallow comment by arguing horde racials are not overpowered and there are useful abilities on the Alliance side.  But this misses the point, so by all means, take this discussion to the Blizzard boards.  There are many there who enjoy that banter.

We are talking about adding incentives or changing mechanics to balance faction populations.  Increasing Horde racials is one idea - adding another class only for Horde side is another.  Heck even Evil elves might be worth a look.

What's your idea?

[Paelos]

The Horde needs an evil human race. Some wildman race that left the Alliance because of the elves. I would join this race.

[jpark]

The Horde needs an evil human race. Some wildman race that left the Alliance because of the elves. I would join this race.

Barbarians would be cool.

[Shockeye]

Don't gnomes have a pretty useful racial?

[Rasix]

Don't gnomes have a pretty useful racial?

Presenting a very small target in PVP aint a bad trait either.  Gnome rogues are a fucking pain to target (tab aint always reliable).