Vanguard - From Brad to the catasses

[schild]

No no no no. I WANT Warhammer to be turnbased. Instead it will be some level grinding RvR variant of DAoC. Not Warhammer.

I'm only going by his press releases. If people want to issue them, I'll take them seriously. Unless they're about Hardware. Then I just pretend they don't exist.

[AOFanboi]

WoW is a MMORPG with training wheels.

The point is, taking off the training wheels does not mean adding camps and six-hour two-digits-no-of-players raids.

Take Anarchy Online. Curse its warts, but it probably has the steepest learning curve in the genre. It's not friendly in any fashion, there is no big exclamation mark over the heads of NPCs with quests, there is a ton of terms to get familiar with, multiple distinct professions, aggro mobs that will chase you clean across a zone if needed be, and multiple ways of gimping your character unless you are careful.

Over the years, Funcom did add a fair bit of camping (Hecklers, some "bosses"), but that's not what it started out as. Just a hard-ish MMORPG with content spread out across levels so that catasses really didn't have any particular advantages. In fact, when they introduced the level 25-60 static dungeon Temple of Three Winds, many 61+ character wailed in the forums, complaining that there was content their characters could not get at - because they were too high level, and they wanted the level restrictions lifted. Funcom did not bend to the pressure (as they didn't for the less-than-25 Subway). Cheers to them for that.

[Shockeye]

WoW is a MMORPG with training wheels.

The point is, taking off the training wheels does not mean adding camps and six-hour two-digits-no-of-players raids.

Take Anarchy Online. Curse its warts, but it probably has the steepest learning curve in the genre. It's not friendly in any fashion, there is no big exclamation mark over the heads of NPCs with quests, there is a ton of terms to get familiar with, multiple distinct professions, aggro mobs that will chase you clean across a zone if needed be, and multiple ways of gimping your character unless you are careful.

Over the years, Funcom did add a fair bit of camping (Hecklers, some "bosses"), but that's not what it started out as. Just a hard-ish MMORPG with content spread out across levels so that catasses really didn't have any particular advantages. In fact, when they introduced the level 25-60 static dungeon Temple of Three Winds, many 61+ character wailed in the forums, complaining that there was content their characters could not get at - because they were too high level, and they wanted the level restrictions lifted. Funcom did not bend to the pressure (as they didn't for the less-than-25 Subway). Cheers to them for that.

Funcom, at least from where I am sitting, seems to have worked hard to get AO respectable after the horror that was the first few months. I couldn't go back to it because I thought the setting and conflict was a tad silly, but they at least tried to keep the game moving forward. Good on them.

[Nija]

But I dont think WoW really did anything for the more jaded MMOG crowd but fool us with promises (and the fact blizzard used to deliver on said promises) and the new Shiney.

I live in IRC with about 30-40 of the most jaded MMOG people you'll ever encounter. Here is what we learned from WOW.

We learned that this is The Best the industry has to offer, and that this is going to be The Game for the next several years. Blizzard quality launches are not common in mmorpg games. WOW basically raised the minimum "specs" of everything in development. If a dev team doesn't rise up to the challenge, it'll be obvious at release/late beta.

Do you honestly think that any game that is in development/been announced will compete with Warcraft?

I've not played WOW since early Feb  and I still think this is true. It's not necessarily a good thing, since it means that a lot of projects are getting canned. But then again we don't have to see gigantic turds get published. (Horizons)

Since then I've re-tried 6 different MMO games, and just couldn't get into 'em again. I don't look forward to any upcoming mmorpgs. I don't think anything will be 'ready to compete' for 2-3 years.

Enjoy the break.

[Yegolev]

WoW is a MMORPG with training wheels. It enabled those people to "get" MMOG progress concepts, reach level 60, learn to raid and spawn a whiner community. Now they are finding a lack of things to do at the high end, and levelling up another character is trivial. They are staying in WoW because they're hooked on MMOGs, but if somebody came along with a slightly more hardcore title like Vanguard and it was deemed to be a good game, they might be ripe for it.

Interesting and something I had not considered. There's still the issue of debuffing a tree for harvesting wood, however...

Ah.  Brad has decided to make EQ-raid-level content for an existing game, but use his own game to do it.  Very interesting.  Instead of instancing in the traditional model, players will "zone" into a different MOG.  OK, not really, but it's funny to think about people getting to the end of WoW, cancelling and immediately installing Vanguard.  Genius.  I suspect that Catass Jr. won't be put off by bad design, just like his old man.  It's not about the design, really, it's about defeating the challenges first.

[Tale]

WoW is a MMORPG with training wheels.

The point is, taking off the training wheels does not mean adding camps and six-hour two-digits-no-of-players raids.

Take Anarchy Online. Curse its warts, but it probably has the steepest learning curve in the genre. It's not friendly in any fashion, there is no big exclamation mark over the heads of NPCs with quests, there is a ton of terms to get familiar with, multiple distinct professions, aggro mobs that will chase you clean across a zone if needed be, and multiple ways of gimping your character unless you are careful.

Over the years, Funcom did add a fair bit of camping (Hecklers, some "bosses"), but that's not what it started out as. Just a hard-ish MMORPG with content spread out across levels so that catasses really didn't have any particular advantages. In fact, when they introduced the level 25-60 static dungeon Temple of Three Winds, many 61+ character wailed in the forums, complaining that there was content their characters could not get at - because they were too high level, and they wanted the level restrictions lifted. Funcom did not bend to the pressure (as they didn't for the less-than-25 Subway). Cheers to them for that.

But AO has the biggest, most horrific grind. Wose than any camping or lengthy raiding. What is it now, 225 levels? Even at launch you were facing an EQ-style grind but with 200 levels. And after the first 40 odd, they're BIG levels and the total is way bigger than the EQ1 grind. And the 25ish they added on are nightmarish.

I was in the AO beta and bought the game at launch. I loved Rubi-Ka, the backstory and the kooky originality and atmosphere. It appealed to me as a creative person (I particularly loved the original intro movie). But the grind turned me away and after I left due to the terrible launch the first time, the grind is the reason my two attempts to return failed. The amounts of repetitive activity and time required to level up felt worse than any six-hour raiding game.

[Tale]

f13 has definitely gotten more rabid.

That is Schild's uber-hate influence. His personality. I recall that when Joe posted he was handing the whole thing over to Schild, the immediate reaction was "WTF? Is this April 1? Why Schild of all people? You can't be serious. What are you doing to this community?".

It settled down when Schild proved able to run a solid (gothy-looking) website. Good work Schild. But as he became more hands-on with the content and went from Waterthread.F13 to just F13, people allowed themselves to be influenced by Schild's opinion style, which is a hardcore version of teh hate.

[sidereal]

Schild's opinion style, which is a hardcore version of teh hate.

Tale, meet Haemish.  Haemish, Tale.

[schild]

Sidereal snuck in on me. This is directed to Tale.

What the fuck are you babbling about? I like more games than 90% of the people on this board. I play every system - including the gamecube that I so often bash. Way to miss the forest for the profanity, man. Just because I'm passionate about gaming doesn't mean I'm filled with 'teh hate.' I was all in favor of getting rid of 'teh hate' (god, I fucking hate that phrase) when f13 started. Let's say it was my little pet metaproject. Check your facts before you start saying shit like that. Do me a favor, and find someone who likes a wider range of games than me. I'm also more willing to forgive a lot of shit in gaming. It's not my fault the MMOG genre has an awful case of rigor mortis.

[Signe]

Aha!  It was YOU all along!  I knew it!

[Trippy]

Sidereal snuck in on me. This is directed to Tale.

What the fuck are you babbling about? I like more games than 90% of the people on this board. I play every system - including the gamecube that I so often bash. Way to miss the forest for the profanity, man. Just because I'm passionate about gaming doesn't mean I'm filled with 'teh hate.' I was all in favor of getting rid of 'teh hate' (god, I fucking hate that phrase) when f13 started. Let's say it was my little pet metaproject. Check your facts before you start saying shit like that. Do me a favor, and find someone who likes a wider range of games than me. I'm also more willing to forgive a lot of shit in gaming. It's not my fault the MMOG genre has an awful case of rigor mortis.

The problem as I see it isn't so much about "teh hate" as the fact that views about things here often get very polarized. I.e. things either suck or are the second coming of Robot Jesus -- there's often no middle ground and therefore a lot of what would otherwise be rational debate and discussion about things turns into "That sucks", "no you are an idiot, it's awesome", "no you are an idiot", etc. For example with regards to Imperator (if you ignore today's new thread) for some people it's basically "It's Romans in space -- it's going to suck" and that kind of kills any sensible discussion.

It's not surprising that things often do get polarized since many if not most of us are passionate about games (which is why we're here), however the frequency in which this sort of thing happens would probably seem very high to an outside observer and I attribute that to the tone and style here which is set by the dominate personalities on these boards and I think that's what Tale was getting at.

[Tale]

Tale, meet Haemish.  Haemish, Tale.

We met earlier in the thread, and in several threads before that. I've read and enjoyed Haemish's rants. But I've already been the whipping boy on page one of the thread, so why stop now?

Schild, there's no need to get so defensive. Yes you like games and you work harder than anyone on F13, but the personality you project influences the site in the direction people have described in this thread.

Haemish's rants are hardcore tongue-in-cheek hate, except maybe in the one I'm about to receive. Schild's have a constant harder edge. And when the chorus chimes in, as I pointed out on page one, it becomes an all-round harder version of teh hate than Waterthread or Lum.

[schild]

I'll admit. My MMOG stuff has a harder edge. I expect more from these people. I respect 99% of the MMORPG developers. Seriously. It may not seem like that, but I do, immensely. But really, WoW should be the last level grind. No one is really going to be able to take a large population from them - not if Guild Wars couldn't. But it's not the last level grind we'll see. So it's just a bunch of sharks trying to bite those last pieces of meat. And really, what's exciting about that? And that's why my shit has a harder edge. I see a grim future.

I wish I didn't.

[Velorath]

The problem as I see it isn't so much about "teh hate" as the fact that views about things here often get very polarized. I.e. things either suck or are the second coming of Robot Jesus -- there's often no middle ground and therefore a lot of what would otherwise be rational debate and discussion about things turns into "That sucks", "no you are an idiot, it's awesome", "no you are an idiot", etc. For example with regards to Imperator (if you ignore today's new thread) for some people it's basically "It's Romans in space -- it's going to suck" and that kind of kills any sensible discussion.

I'm not sure why some people are trying to turn Imperator into the poster child of misplaced hate here.  Blame Mythic for announcing the game maybe a couple years too early making "Romans In Space" a joke on more websites than just here.  Until recently, many assumed it was just a pet vaporware project of Mark Jacobs.  You can talk about Schild maybe going a little crazy at times when it comes to say... movies or Nintendo (I think maybe some people might take him a bit more seriously than he intends though), but I can't say that I've seen a lack of debate or discussion on any games where there's been actual info to discuss.  That's why we're all here isn't it?  Otherwise we could all be saving time by just yelling at our computer screens like crazy old men while we're playing.

[Tale]

I see a grim future.

But next week is coming!

[schild]

That should be enough liquor.




For monday.

[Fabricated]

[Daydreamer]

Best. Game Parody.  Ever.

[HaemishM]

Since we've become rabid and all about teh hate, can someone please tell me, link me to, or show me ANYTHING about upcoming MMOG's that would give me some hope? Please? Anything?

I don't care what game it is, just show me one game that doesn't look like either: 1) an EQ/WoW/DAoC clone in new sheep's clothing, 2) an innovative game that will never come out, or 3) an innovative game that will come up but be horribly buggy, unfinished, unbalanced and altogether shitty? Give me a REASON to hope for the future of MMOG's. There are some sparkles out there, some maybes, but nothing that is piercing my well-earned skepticism towards the genre.

And here's another thing. For all the hate, angst, and negativity that I've spewed over the years, I want one fucking developer to prove me wrong. Do it. PROVE ME WRONG. I want you to prove me wrong, because I love games, and I love the concept of MMOG's and if you prove me wrong, I will play. It's been done before. CoH proved me wrong, and I played it, only ending my subscription last month because of Guild Wars. WoW proved me wrong on the numbers it could garner. Both of those games gave me good gaming experiences for the amount of time I was subscribed.

Prove me wrong, devs. Prove the hate misplaced.

[Hoax]

TwilightWar?  They bought the HL engine and have done some stuff with it, in two years it might be good...  They just need some money-hat backing right now.

Auto Assault?  meh... I dunno grasping at straws already.

Conan?  Because this time in the early dev stage they aren't lying to us about any features that we wont actually see for 1-3 years after release 

I tried.

[Signe]

I hear there's a free trial for M59 and it's a whole month long!

[Shockeye]

I played the free trial of Puzzle Pirates and enjoyed myself.

[slog]

Since we've become rabid and all about teh hate, can someone please tell me, link me to, or show me ANYTHING about upcoming MMOG's that would give me some hope? Please? Anything?

I don't care what game it is, just show me one game that doesn't look like either: 1) an EQ/WoW/DAoC clone in new sheep's clothing, 2) an innovative game that will never come out, or 3) an innovative game that will come up but be horribly buggy, unfinished, unbalanced and altogether shitty? Give me a REASON to hope for the future of MMOG's. There are some sparkles out there, some maybes, but nothing that is piercing my well-earned skepticism towards the genre.

And here's another thing. For all the hate, angst, and negativity that I've spewed over the years, I want one fucking developer to prove me wrong. Do it. PROVE ME WRONG. I want you to prove me wrong, because I love games, and I love the concept of MMOG's and if you prove me wrong, I will play. It's been done before. CoH proved me wrong, and I played it, only ending my subscription last month because of Guild Wars. WoW proved me wrong on the numbers it could garner. Both of those games gave me good gaming experiences for the amount of time I was subscribed.

Prove me wrong, devs. Prove the hate misplaced.

Nope. None.

That's sort of the point though.  Move on to something else.  Battlefield 2 comes out this month, and it looks to be pretty fun.

[Shockeye]

Battlefield 2 comes out this month, and it looks to be pretty fun.

I have it on pre-order and I plan to install the server on our box here for some beatdown if anyone else plans to play.

[lamaros]

Since we've become rabid and all about teh hate, can someone please tell me, link me to, or show me ANYTHING about upcoming MMOG's that would give me some hope? Please? Anything?

I don't care what game it is, just show me one game that doesn't look like either: 1) an EQ/WoW/DAoC clone in new sheep's clothing, 2) an innovative game that will never come out, or 3) an innovative game that will come up but be horribly buggy, unfinished, unbalanced and altogether shitty? Give me a REASON to hope for the future of MMOG's. There are some sparkles out there, some maybes, but nothing that is piercing my well-earned skepticism towards the genre.

And here's another thing. For all the hate, angst, and negativity that I've spewed over the years, I want one fucking developer to prove me wrong. Do it. PROVE ME WRONG. I want you to prove me wrong, because I love games, and I love the concept of MMOG's and if you prove me wrong, I will play. It's been done before. CoH proved me wrong, and I played it, only ending my subscription last month because of Guild Wars. WoW proved me wrong on the numbers it could garner. Both of those games gave me good gaming experiences for the amount of time I was subscribed.

Prove me wrong, devs. Prove the hate misplaced.

It can't be long now. WoW and Guild Wars are both popular steps away from the bad. Once the devs work out where the filling will come from we might see an end to the transition and a MMOG that is actualy good. I hope.

[schild]

WoW is not a popular step away from the bad. It's a lateral step back in the direction of EQ from the bad though. It's the best of it's type, but it's certainly not something that will usher in a new generation of GOOD mmogs. Remember how long it takes to make one and how long it takes Blizzard to make a game.

Maybe, in my lifetime, I'll see a second generation MMOG.

[Hoax]

But no matter how dark the darkness there is always a glimmer of hope.  Right?

If gamespy says that thanks to WoW nobody will clone EQ ever again it must be true.  RIGHT?

Nope we're fucked, still, and forever, at least if one wants to follow the teachings of the f13-orange-name prophets.

Not that I disagree mind you, but it just makes a guy wonder if he should buy a ps2 or something and submit to *shudder* single player games.

[schild]

Because of MMORPGs (specifically, Star Wars Galaxies - which I had 8 good months with, and yes, I mean good) I've learned to love my consoles again. Really, I'd like a mass consumption MMORPG to come out just so I can see what it's like. Sure, there's an argument to be made that WoW is mass consumption, but i mean mass as in the people who buy things like Madden every year or preorder Zelda 8 months in advance. I want to see a game made for this. This grind shit wouldn't cut it.