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Author Topic: RIP Pat Tillman  (Read 12785 times)
Big Gulp
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on: April 23, 2004, 08:11:10 AM

Never met the guy, as he wasn't in my unit (I was in the 4/75th, he was 2/75th), but I know people that knew him, and apparently he was a hell of a good guy.  He just died in Afghanistan, and I figured his story was fairly interesting.

For those not in the know, he turned down a $9 million contract with the Cardinals to join the rangers after 9/11.  I personally know I wouldn't have done the same, but he did.  Pat, you're a better man than I ever will be.  Rest in peace, brother.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/Sports/tillman_afghanistan040423-1.html
Dark Vengeance
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Reply #1 on: April 23, 2004, 08:27:54 AM

Quote from: Big Gulp
For those not in the know, he turned down a $9 million contract with the Cardinals to join the rangers after 9/11.


Not to be completely crass, but seeing as how it was a choice between playing for the Arizona Cardinals or getting shot at, I can't really blame him for the decision. The Cards suck.

RIP Pat Tillman, your courage and sacrfice are an example that more athletes should try to emulate in this era. A particularly poignant reminder of what's really important on a day where most sports guys are rabidly fuming about whether Kellen Winslow II is a better selection than Sean Taylor.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............
Foix
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Reply #2 on: April 23, 2004, 09:55:46 AM

Quote from: Dark Vengeance
Not to be completely crass, but seeing as how it was a choice between playing for the Arizona Cardinals or getting shot at, I can't really blame him for the decision. The Cards suck.


Actually, he turned down a five-year $9 million offer from the Rams to accept a one-year $500,000 contract extension from the Cardinals out of loyalty to the team. When the contract was up, he enlisted.

It doesn't get much better than that, does it?
HaemishM
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Reply #3 on: April 23, 2004, 10:45:16 AM

/pour out a 40 for a guy with guts, dedication and more civic responsibility than I've ever been able to muster

Alluvian
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Reply #4 on: April 23, 2004, 12:08:53 PM

Are we going to open up a separate thread for all 700-800 or so who have died in this war?

This man deserves not an ounce more of my gratitude than any other of them.  That is a lot, but I don't know why he is getting his own thread and none of the others are (well, of course I DO know why, but I don't agree with it).  And frankly I can't afford to pour out a 40 for all of them.  I will just have to do it collectively for all of them.

I am sure the last thing a guy like this would want is focus on him instead of focus on everyone who has died in service.

So as one of many he surely deserves all of our respect, but no more than they guy on the other side of town you never knew who came home in a very similar box with the same flag draped across.


P.S:  This is NOT anti-war sentiment from me.  Just a desire for equal recognition.
Mesozoic
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Reply #5 on: April 23, 2004, 12:34:34 PM

This is more of a snapshot of the costs of war that anything else, Alluvian.

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Big Gulp
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Reply #6 on: April 23, 2004, 12:45:28 PM

Quote from: Alluvian
P.S:  This is NOT anti-war sentiment from me.  Just a desire for equal recognition.


I respect the sentiment, but I do think Tillman is a somewhat special case.  How many guys do I know of that would pass on a multi-million dollar contract in order to serve their country?  Not many, myself included.  That's a special kind of patriotism and selflessness that not many people possess.  I certainly don't.

Were I an ASU alumni I'd be seriously trying to rename their stadium right about now.
Murgos
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Reply #7 on: April 23, 2004, 12:49:30 PM

Quote from: Alluvian
..I don't know why he is getting his own thread and none of the others are (well, of course I DO know why, but I don't agree with it).  And frankly I can't afford to pour out a 40 for all of them.


It's ok to personify loss in one specific symbol, it's generally the preferred method even.  That said, part of the reason for this thread is that the man had 1 degree of seperation from Big Gulp and he decided to talk about it, good enough reason to have a thread about him in my book.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Mr_PeaCH
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Reply #8 on: April 23, 2004, 01:12:45 PM

Quote from: Murgos
Quote from: Alluvian
..I don't know why he is getting his own thread and none of the others are (well, of course I DO know why, but I don't agree with it).  And frankly I can't afford to pour out a 40 for all of them.


It's ok to personify loss in one specific symbol, it's generally the preferred method even.  That said, part of the reason for this thread is that the man had 1 degree of seperation from Big Gulp and he decided to talk about it, good enough reason to have a thread about him in my book.



Amen, and well said.  RIP

***************

COME ON YOU SPURS!
Alluvian
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Reply #9 on: April 23, 2004, 01:25:51 PM

Wasn't my intention to upset anyone.  Just think of the others when you think of Pat.

I don't know any others who gave up multimillion dollar contracts to go to the war, but I don't know any others who died in the war who were given the option to turn down that kind of money.  We don't know how many of those other pine boxes contain people of equal or greater patriotism.

And I understand the grieving a symbolic member of a group.  We are not really wired to handle the individual grief of 700+ deaths.  If we had to we would at least partially shut down mentally.

RIP Pat, and the others as well.

That is all I will say.  My apologies if I ruffled any feathers.  It was not my intent in a thread such as this.
UD_Delt
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Reply #10 on: April 23, 2004, 01:33:09 PM

Does Tillman deserve his own thread? Yes.

Why?

To be a professional athelete is doing something extraordinary with your life. To give that up and defend freedom with your life is doing something beyond extraordinary.

For the media to focus on Tillman takes nothing away from the rest of the soldiers who have given their lives and takes nothing away from those who have served and are still serving. It shows us in terms we can understand what all of those soldiers and veterans are willing to sacrifice to defend what they believe in.
Alluvian
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Reply #11 on: April 23, 2004, 01:43:29 PM

Not going to get into an argument in this thread.  RIP Pat Tillman.
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Reply #12 on: April 26, 2004, 09:46:01 AM

Quote from: Alluvian
I don't know any others who died in the war who were given the option to turn down that kind of money.


IMO, that's what made Pat Tillman special. He had a LOT of options available to him. He was an honor student at his alma mater, he played football at a professional level and was good enough to be sought after by other teams. Given all that, he had the moral fortitude to give it all up to not only join the armed forces, but to go for an elite unit; to intentionally thrust himself as far into harm's way as possible.

In more of my opinion, he is a symbol to me off all the things that are right with the world, and provides a little restoration of my faith in humanity in general.

RIP Pat Tillman

[Edit: ...  and I know where you're coming from Alluvian. I don't think giving Pat Tillman recognition in his own thread detracts from the sacrifices others have made. He is more notable because he made sacrifices in order to make more sacrifices.]
HaemishM
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Reply #13 on: April 26, 2004, 10:02:53 AM

From all the coverage I saw on Tillman this weekend, I heard one of his friends say something that fits here.

Tillman, when asked about why he was giving up so much, he responded with something along the lines of "I'm not risking anything more than any other guy out there."

He risked his life, just like all the other guys. He just didn't "HAVE" to, which makes his sacrfice all the more notable. Is his death more important than anyone else's in Afghanistan? Of course not. But it is a sign that not everyone is a selfish bastard (like myself), and that true heroism does still exist.

Glamdring
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Reply #14 on: April 29, 2004, 04:38:06 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792200

Quote
Gonzalez writes that Tillman was a "Rambo" who probably acted out of "nationalist patriotic fantasies." In his own neighborhood in Puerto Rico, according to Gonzalez, Tillman would not have been considered a hero, but a "pendejo," or idiot.



Quote
"It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable," Gonzalez writes. "What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his 'service' was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in."


Some people just don't get it and probably never will.

RIP Pat Tillman
DarkDryad
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Reply #15 on: April 30, 2004, 06:16:52 AM

Quote from: Alluvian
Are we going to open up a separate thread for all 700-800 or so who have died in this war?

This man deserves not an ounce more of my gratitude than any other of them.  That is a lot, but I don't know why he is getting his own thread and none of the others are (well, of course I DO know why, but I don't agree with it).  And frankly I can't afford to pour out a 40 for all of them.  I will just have to do it collectively for all of them.

I am sure the last thing a guy like this would want is focus on him instead of focus on everyone who has died in service.

So as one of many he surely deserves all of our respect, but no more than they guy on the other side of town you never knew who came home in a very similar box with the same flag draped across.


P.S:  This is NOT anti-war sentiment from me.  Just a desire for equal recognition.


Err  if I'm not mistaken it was started because he was a RANGER not for what he did before enlisting. There are a couple of us here who were and we tend to honor our own.
You dont have to like it but we're a brotherhood so kinda deal with it or dont read it. kthnks

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.
DarkDryad
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Reply #16 on: April 30, 2004, 06:23:39 AM

Quote from: Glamdring
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792200

Quote
Gonzalez writes that Tillman was a "Rambo" who probably acted out of "nationalist patriotic fantasies." In his own neighborhood in Puerto Rico, according to Gonzalez, Tillman would not have been considered a hero, but a "pendejo," or idiot.



Quote
"It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable," Gonzalez writes. "What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his 'service' was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in."


Some people just don't get it and probably never will.

RIP Pat Tillman


Err I think someone need to bash her fucking skull in.  See I can have opinions as well.

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.
daveNYC
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Reply #17 on: April 30, 2004, 06:27:21 AM

Quote
"You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the 'real' thick of things," Gonzalez writes in his column, which is posted on the collegiate paper's Web site. "I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures.


I didn't know him, but I could tell what he was like from his photo.

Go go critical thinking!
Aslan
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Reply #18 on: April 30, 2004, 07:07:17 AM

Quote from: Alluvian
Wasn't my intention to upset anyone.  Just think of the others when you think of Pat.
That is all I will say.  My apologies if I ruffled any feathers.  It was not my intent in a thread such as this.


I think it's a perfectly legitimate argument, Alluve.  We don't ever want to forget all the others over there too.   Hell, my brother was one of them for a while.
My thoughts are ANYTHING that will help us remember that young men and women are dying for us, for the people of oppressed countries, is a good thing.  Instead of one more down in Afghanistan, tonight at 11, we have a name, and people can realize that there are thousands of Tillmans overseas, all of them voluntarily risking balls and sack (or tits and ass to be quasi-politically correct), and they should all be recognized.  He is a symbol, and a selflessly heroic one at that.  
I give out my respect to anyone in the uniform, including my little brother who I used to kick the shit out of all the time, and everyone here in the military.    
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."  Pat's in the Big Game in th sky, and I am thinking he's a starter.   Requiescat in pace.
HaemishM
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Reply #19 on: May 03, 2004, 10:17:39 AM

Quote
"It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable," Gonzalez writes. "What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his 'service' was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in."


What a dick.

Dark Vengeance
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Reply #20 on: May 04, 2004, 07:06:40 AM

I have an idea....how about the detractors bashing Tillman's sacrifice and commitment to his country pick up a fucking weapon and spend some time in the service themselves?

Leave it some comfy student, political activist, or talking head to politicize and belittle the accomplishments of a fallen soldier...using the very freedom he helped provide and preserve to dishonor his memory.

Tillman didn't believe himself to be better than anyone, though by all accounts, he was a better man than most of us ever will be.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............
Matt
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Reply #21 on: May 04, 2004, 01:37:48 PM

Quote from: HaemishM
Quote
"It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable," Gonzalez writes. "What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his 'service' was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in."


What a dick.


And yet, he's right, to an extent. Mr. Tillman was not defending freedom. The soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are not defending freedom. They are, in fact, hurting America by creating more virulent hate towards America. Not to mention the fact that they regularly engage in murdering innocents because they'd rather kill a few civilians (who didn't volunteer for this) than risk their own skins too much (even though they did volunteer for this).

Nonetheless, I still feel bad for Mr. Tillman and Mr. Tillman's family. Yes, he volunteered for this, so he certainly bears some responsibility for his position as the aggressor, but I can't help but feeling that what America does to its youth in terms of brainwashing (America good! America always right! America can do no wrong! American lives worth more than lives of anyone with darker skin!) is responsible for a good deal of his motivation.

Perhaps I'm biased towards defenders as opposed to aggressors, as my Dad was an insurgent in the '56 Hungarian Revolution, but to me, the real heroes are the people defending their countries, not those invading the other countries.

I don't really expect anything but flames for this. I could probably flame Bush to my heart's content and receive an equal amount of support and condemnation here, but god forbid anyone criticize the guy out there actually doing Bush's dirty work right?

If Pat Tillman wanted to be a real hero, he'd have gone into the NFL for a big fat paycheck and then donated most of it to help the families of those suffering from <pick your horror>.

--matt

"And thus, they ate horseflesh as if it was venison, and they reckoned it most savory, for hunger served in the place of seasoning."
Rasix
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Reply #22 on: May 04, 2004, 01:43:56 PM

Jesus Tap Dancing Christ, not in an RIP thread.

-Rasix
cevik
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Reply #23 on: May 04, 2004, 02:18:17 PM

Quote from: Matt

And yet, he's right, to an extent. Mr. Tillman was not defending freedom. The soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are not defending freedom. They are, in fact, hurting America by creating more virulent hate towards America. Not to mention the fact that they regularly engage in murdering innocents because they'd rather kill a few civilians (who didn't volunteer for this) than risk their own skins too much (even though they did volunteer for this).


I'm not going to flame you, but I am going to tell you why you are wrong.  Mr. Tillman saw a situation where America was attacked by terrorists who used Afghanistan as their base of operations.  He watched, as we all did, the Afghani government respond to our requests to capture and extradite those terrorists with denial.  He, being just another citizen of the United States, had no way to be more informed than the rest of us.  He made a decision based on the available data to him, and it was a noble decision to make.

Had he been killed in Iraq, I'd at least understand part of your point, that the war is unjustified; however, even then I'd disagree with your assesment of the situation.  I wholeheartedly disagree with the war in Iraq, I disagreed with it long before we attacked the country, I never felt that Saddam or his country posed a threat to those of us in the United States; however, I cannot find it in my heart to feel anything but sorrow for the soldiers that served our country and paid the ultimate price.  I certainly feel no contempt for anyone serving our country in Iraq, despite the fact that I completely disagree with the war they are fighting, I believe they are doing what they feel is right and they should be proud that they are doing that and they certainly deserve nothing but praise for their conviction.

When the evidence was presented to us that Iraq was a threat, I was immediately suspicious; however, I can certainly understand someone looking at the same evidence and making a judgement in the opposite direction.  Certainly, as simple citizens, we do not have the information or the resources available to us to truely make an informed decision about the threat of foreign countries.  We are forced by circumstance to put some amount of faith in what our leaders tell us.  While I doubted them, Mr. Tillman believed what they had to say.  I cannot fault the soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan for believing what our President promised us all was the truth.  

Just because you disagree with what our leaders have ordered our men to do, it doesn't mean our servicemen have done anything wrong.  Pat Tillman did what he felt was best in his heart of hearts, and I certainly don't think we can blame him or feel contempt towards him.  The men and women who are in Afghanistan and Iraq are there because they believed our President when he told us that Iraq presented a threat to our country.

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HaemishM
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Reply #24 on: May 04, 2004, 02:49:25 PM

Quote from: Matt
Quote from: HaemishM
Quote
"It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable," Gonzalez writes. "What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his 'service' was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in."


What a dick.


And yet, he's right, to an extent. Mr. Tillman was not defending freedom. The soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are not defending freedom. They are, in fact, hurting America by creating more virulent hate towards America. Not to mention the fact that they regularly engage in murdering innocents because they'd rather kill a few civilians (who didn't volunteer for this) than risk their own skins too much (even though they did volunteer for this).


Ok, now I get to call YOU a dick.

Maybe if he had died in Iraq, I might have agreed with you. No, not really, but at least you do have some small hint of "rightness" about the causes of that war. Afghanistan.... not so much. Considering that the rulers there WERE ACTUALLY HARBORING TERRORISTS WHO HAD ATTACKED OUR FUCKING COUNTRY, YOU DIMWIT. The people of Afghanistan actually wanted us there. Shit, they STILL want us there.

I'm against the war in Iraq, but dissing Pat Tillman from the safety of your college dorm room is fucking tasteless, as is equating his efforts with killing civilians.

Matt
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Reply #25 on: May 04, 2004, 03:34:40 PM

Quote from: cevik

I'm not going to flame you, but I am going to tell you why you are wrong.  Mr. Tillman saw a situation where America was attacked by terrorists who used Afghanistan as their base of operations.  He watched, as we all did, the Afghani government respond to our requests to capture and extradite those terrorists with denial.  He, being just another citizen of the United States, had no way to be more informed than the rest of us.  He made a decision based on the available data to him, and it was a noble decision to make.

Every citizen has a responsibilty to take whatever your government tells you with a healthy dose of skepticism. How many times does it have to lie to you before you stop trusting it? I mean, c'mon.

Look, I'm not calling Mr. Tillman evil. I do think it would have been more heroic to play in the NFL, earn the money, and use it to make a much larger impact than a single soldier can. But whatever, I spend my time making games and donate no more than a few thousand dollars each year. I have no claim to heroism nor do I care that Mr. Tillman didn't do what I personally think would be the most heroic.

What I am saying is I believe he isn't a hero, but to a good extent, a victim. I don't believe Afghanistan is a noble war. We aren't stopping terrorism by being there, though we are certainly doing a good job of continuing the thousand year tradition of f-ing up their country. If we were that worried about terrorism we'd be invading Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. But wait! Saudi Arabia already sells us oil in a friendly fashion, and Prince Bandar is one of Bush's closest friends. Afghanistan, on the other hand, had started to get to be a pain in the ass with the plans for the new oil pipeline through there, needed to access the massive central Asian oil reserves without piping through Russia or Iran. Can't have that!

Quote

I certainly feel no contempt for anyone serving our country in Iraq, despite the fact that I completely disagree with the war they are fighting, I believe they are doing what they feel is right and they should be proud that they are doing that and they certainly deserve nothing but praise for their conviction.


I assume you're equally proud of the scum that hit the Towers on 9/11 then. They were also doing what they felt was right, and they also made the ultimate sacrifice for their convictions. I suppose the Khmer Rouge was also praise-worthy. Acted out their convictions after all!

Gah, I'm not even going to argue anymore. I get so tired of the mindless flag-waving, the inability to admit that America is out there with highly impure motives, the unwillingness to even beyond the shiny 1950s picture of America, and the double standard Americans employ for their behavior vs. the rest of the world's.

America has a lot to be proud of, but its actions towards other countries is not one of them.

--matt, sorry he ever read this thread to begin with.

"And thus, they ate horseflesh as if it was venison, and they reckoned it most savory, for hunger served in the place of seasoning."
cevik
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Reply #26 on: May 04, 2004, 03:45:30 PM

Quote from: Matt
I assume you're equally proud of the scum that hit the Towers on 9/11 then. They were also doing what they felt was right, and they also made the ultimate sacrifice for their convictions.


Surely you can see the difference between an attack aimed at civilians and an attack aimed at the military of two ruthless dictatorships.

Quote
Gah, I'm not even going to argue anymore. I get so tired of the mindless flag-waving, the inability to admit that America is out there with highly impure motives, the unwillingness to even beyond the shiny 1950s picture of America, and the double standard Americans employ for their behavior vs. the rest of the world's.


Anyone here will tell you I'm the most "America hating" anti-Bush asshole that's lived; however, just because I hate Bush and I think his motives were unpure doesn't mean I hate our military who I think primarily serve us for pure reasons.  What other reason was Pat Tillman in Afghanistan?  He's not profiting from the oil pipeline.  None of the soldiers in Iraq get a cut of Halliburton's profits.  Just because the leaders are corrupt it doesn't mean the soldiers are bad people.  They are doing what they believe is right, which is a lot more than can be said about the people who got us into this situation.

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Reply #27 on: May 04, 2004, 04:13:30 PM

Quote from: cevik
Quote from: Matt
I assume you're equally proud of the scum that hit the Towers on 9/11 then. They were also doing what they felt was right, and they also made the ultimate sacrifice for their convictions.


Surely you can see the difference between an attack aimed at civilians and an attack aimed at the military of two ruthless dictatorships.

Sure I can. But that's not what you said. You said you were proud because they were doing what they believed was right. If what they're actually doing matters, and not just their convictions, then your justification for being proud doesn't really hold.

And I thought we toppled the ruthless dictatorships quite awhile ago. Bush said we did. We're not fighting the Taliban's military anymore, nor are we fighting Saddam's army. We're fighting people who want the invading army out, now.

I mean, I wonder if you'd feel the same about, say, your family's wedding getting bombed accidentally/on purpose by the Sudanese after America pulled its little terrorist act on their aspirin factory. Would the Sudanese killing your civilian friends be heroes? Was America not continuing to harbor Clinton, who ordered that act of terrorism committed?


Quote

Anyone here will tell you I'm the most "America hating" anti-Bush asshole that's lived; however, just because I hate Bush and I think his motives were unpure doesn't mean I hate our military who I think primarily serve us for pure reasons.  What other reason was Pat Tillman in Afghanistan?  He's not profiting from the oil pipeline.  None of the soldiers in Iraq get a cut of Halliburton's profits.  Just because the leaders are corrupt it doesn't mean the soldiers are bad people.  They are doing what they believe is right, which is a lot more than can be said about the people who got us into this situation.


What other reason was he there? I believe the guy who wrote the original article probably nailed it on the head: macho patriotism/jingoism.

This whole motives argument is really crap anyway. Few can argue that the terrorists who hit the Trade Towers were not among the most fervent believers in their view of Right around. Psychotically so.

--matt

"And thus, they ate horseflesh as if it was venison, and they reckoned it most savory, for hunger served in the place of seasoning."
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Reply #28 on: May 04, 2004, 04:22:12 PM

Quote from: Matt


What other reason was he there? I believe the guy who wrote the original article probably nailed it on the head: macho patriotism/jingoism.



You're equally as uninformed as the lackwit the wrote the article.  Have you read any of the actual stuff about Tillman or heard any of his interviews?  I'm guessing no, or you'd rate his assessment as ridiculous as most everyone else with two brain cells to rub together has.

Really, is this argument neccessary in this thread?  Can you make a new one or just move along and quit being such a shit?

-Rasix
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Reply #29 on: May 04, 2004, 10:32:27 PM

Quote from: Rasix

You're equally as uninformed as the lackwit the wrote the article.  Have you read any of the actual stuff about Tillman or heard any of his interviews?  I'm guessing no, or you'd rate his assessment as ridiculous as most everyone else with two brain cells to rub together has.

Really, is this argument neccessary in this thread?  Can you make a new one or just move along and quit being such a shit?


I'm sorry, are my challenges to your worldview that disturbing? They're hardly uniquely insightful. Yes, I've read a fair amount about Mr. Tillman. You seem to think I'm painting him as some kind of demon. I'm not. I reserve that for the government that duped him. I'm just not painting him as some kind of hero.

--matt

"And thus, they ate horseflesh as if it was venison, and they reckoned it most savory, for hunger served in the place of seasoning."
Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024

I am the harbinger of your doom!


Reply #30 on: May 04, 2004, 11:30:36 PM

No, it's a perfectly valid thing to argue.  I just find it tasteless bring this shit up in a RIP thread.  

I typed up some other shit, yadda yadda yadda, but I'm not going to bother. Believe what you want. Sacrifice means something.

-Rasix
Foix
Terracotta Army
Posts: 54


Reply #31 on: May 05, 2004, 04:23:56 AM

Just for the sake of putting the matter to rest, I read ever relevant article that came up here about why Tillman joined up. As has been ironically well-publicized since his death, he didn't want any publicity surrounding his decision to join up, so he never made any public statements about the matter. The quote that made the wire service rounds--that he was compelled to enlist in order to do something in response to the 9/11 attacks--was from a high school coach of his, and friends say that 9/11 affected him deeply. Others suggest that he wanted to serve in the Rangers with his brother. Still others say that Tillman was a thrill-seeker looking to experience as much as he could in life and thought that the military would be an adventure. None of these explanations are mutually exclusive, of course, nor are any of them necessarily true: Tillman obviously knew why he joined up, and his family probably does; they've suggested that they'll discuss it with the public once they feel they're through the grieving process.

On a somewhat related note, after reading one of Matt's responses, I was prompted to reflect on self-sacrifice as a virtue in and of itself. To be sure, it is the habit of governments everywhere to praise self-sacrifice that is beneficial to themselves and to label that which isn't the product of mental illness, fanaticism or evil. But self-sacrifice itself is a life-giving virtue: without out, movements, philosophies, peoples and countries all die. In this age when--the strikingly un-Christian Christianity of the 'religious right' aside--consumerism and materialism have triumphed over more uplifting creeds, there is something inherently admirable in the recognition that the self isn't the pinnacle of creation and that there is something greater to life than the accumulation of pleasures and goods.

And self-sacrifice is a virtue without which the United States is likely to flounder and fail, especially when its enemies possess it in spades: if our country begins to rely solely on technology and cash to assert its position in the world, it will soon go the way of Byzantium. That's why Pat Tillman, whatever his virtues as a man, will be a very potent symbol for the sort of behavior that keeps nations alive and well.

Quote
The Cardinals said they will retire Tillman's No. 40 and plan to name the plaza surrounding their new stadium under construction in suburban Glendale the "Pat Tillman Freedom Plaza."


(Next week, of course, there will be some gripping scandal involving a reality show or someone's tit to get the minds of Americans back on matters of importance.)
Dark Vengeance
Delinquents
Posts: 1210


Reply #32 on: May 05, 2004, 05:53:27 AM

Quote from: Matt
Mr. Tillman was not defending freedom. The soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are not defending freedom.


Note to staff: we might not want every comment a dev makes to be associated with their game. It puts the dev in an awkward position....either feel unable to express opinions, or have those opinions reflect poorly on their game.

Quote
Matt
Developer: Ironrealms


I'm just thinking that the old red name system worked better.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............
WayAbvPar
Moderator
Posts: 19270


Reply #33 on: May 05, 2004, 10:54:37 AM

DV, why don't you start your own site instead of trying to run this one? Jesus...

I give the folks that read and post here enough credit to see the difference between a personal opinion and professional discussions about a project. I for one am glad that Matt feels comfortable enough to do more than blow sunshine up our skirts about his game.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
DarkDryad
Terracotta Army
Posts: 556

da hizzookup


WWW
Reply #34 on: May 05, 2004, 11:04:27 AM

I have to agree. Its nice to see a dev give his personal opinions of news stories even if they do make him look like an ass and whatnot.

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.
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