Waterthread searching hopelessly for direction?

[Riley]

Obviously with the Haemish's article about the death of PC games and the move to this new site - we're seeing the evolution of Waterthread.  But where the heck is it going?

I always came here to read critical points of view on MMORPGs.  When the devs and serious gamers come out and talk candidly about the direction and design of their games, thats a pretty unique thing that is hard to find anywhere.  Anywhere else its heavily moderated and managed by professional PR people who are deathly scared they might piss someone off.  With the latest changes, the best part of these forums die.  I highly doubt we are going to see Raph here mixing it up with Lum and debating about the death penalty and leveling treadmills in the latest incarnation of Super Mario Bros.

Of course, Waterthread has always been a strong anti catass voice for MMORPGs - and thats fine even if I don't agree with some of the extremes people feel about it, but these changes now seem to be firmly moving the site into the casual, mass market games.  Seems like a sellout to me and I am dissappointed.  

Someone give Haemish a fucking Gamecube already and send Joe to take some lessons on cartoon drawing.  Welcome to the next Penny Arcade wanna be site.  You're really soaking in it now.

[Dropkicktobucket]

Wt.O was like the republican party.  Direction but no movement.

Now there's a more organized place to pancake shitty products that jaded gamers loath.  Or discuss that that gem in the rough across genre lines.

[squirrel]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling.  We still play MMORPG's, we still play single player games and hey, there's some damn fine games on consoles. Besides, having a direction is over-rated...and maintaining teh hate against the 10^3 MMORPG's on the market right now has some seriously diminishing returns. Now if Haemish starts bumpfuzzling furry's or Boog starts saying nice things about, well, anything, then i'll panic.

[Hellfire]

a) "The site" hasn't even been put up yet. I'm all for knee-jerk reactions but at least have something to react to first.

b) Your nick on the last incarnation of WT had 1 post in GenDisc. I'm all for lurking and whatnot but WT is what it is because everyone contributes. Even if that contribution is badly-timed comedic relief.

In other words: If you don't participate don't look for anyone to care that you think WT is a big whore-filled donut forcing it's wicked filling down your gullet.

[Lurk]

I highly doubt we are going to see Raph here mixing it up with Lum and debating about the death penalty and leveling treadmills in the latest incarnation of Super Mario Bros.

When was the last time that happened anyway? When was the last time that happened and anything new was said?

The days of developers saying anything that hasn't gone through the PR sieve are pretty much gone anyway. MMORPGs have "matured", and many people have lost interest.

Anyway, it's too soon to tell what will or will not happen.

[Morfiend]

I fear change.

[Fabricated]

Selling out usually implies some sort of profit is being made.

As far as I know I haven't gotten a solid gold yacht full of hookers yet. Maybe Joe has.

[Rasix]

Someone give Haemish a fucking Gamecube already and send Joe to take some lessons on cartoon drawing.  Welcome to the next Penny Arcade wanna be site.  You're really soaking in it now.

Unlike PA, I don't think we'll just ignore the MMO(RPG) genre altogether.  Really, why set your sites solely on a niche area of games that hasn't really been producing anything new, innovative, and fun for years (subject to opinion, but grindfests don't exactly turn my key)?

I think this community has had a bit of tunnel vision.  We've so fervently followed the MMORPG scene that we've ignored what was on the edge of our sight.  We've extolled the virutues of games like KotoR, Max Payne 2, and a bevy of other Xbox, GC, PS2, and other non MMO pc games. Have we seen a MMORPG in the last 4 years that 75% of can agree upon is not complete shit in a barrel?

I don't know if this transition will work or the site will die. I don't really care. But I don't really mind that we've decided not to become so attached at the hip to a really stale and unimaginative niche genre of games.

I'm sure we'll still have nice lively debates about the MMORPG arena. With WoW, EQII, GuildWars and Sigil's Treadmill++ on the horizon, we'll be knee deep in discussion about a games that have learned less from the past than your average crack addict.

[Arthur_Parker]

I just hope we start to see game reviews again with pretty pictures, I like pretty pictures.

[Paelos]

Last time I checked we were still allowed to post what we wanted on the sites within reason, and that didn't seem to ever stop anybody from talking about whatever they wanted to. Nor did it stop people from derailing the conversations about other stuff.

We are a group of political, angry gamers. I doubt we'll stop talking about games in any variety.

[Slayerik]

I must agree with the original poster, I felt so special when the mighty devs would come talk to us and grace us with their presence :) I say don't knock something till ya try it.

[Snowspinner]

Of course it's evolving. As you may have noticed, somewhere around a year or two ago everyone ran out of things to say about MMOGs.

I mean, there had really been the hope that, after the first generation, the second generation would do something new - that it would break in new, exciting ways that could be bitched about.

It turned out, though, that the second generation was just the first generation with better graphics. And at that point, it just became an issue of... what is there left to talk about? The games suck. They will always suck. The end.

Better that the site evolve and actually have things to talk about.

As for devs, Raph, Liet, Psycho, and Lum were among the first to register.

So I don't think we've lost that.

[HRose]

I always came here to read critical points of view on MMORPGs.  When the devs and serious gamers come out and talk candidly about the direction and design of their games, thats a pretty unique thing that is hard to find anywhere.

How and why is this going to change?
That's the simple reason why I joined the forums and continued to follow them even after being banned various times.

Till there's Haemish writing my interest will stay alive.

[slog]

As for devs, Raph, Liet, Psycho, and Lum were among the first to register.

So I don't think we've lost that.

They were probably so desperate to keep them posting that they asked them to register as soon as the site was up.

Anyway, I though Joe had unlimited bandwidth for WT.ORG at 10 bucks a month or so (at least that's what he told me in IRC.)  And Schild? This is the guy who gave us such great quotes as

I worked at Best Buy for 5 years. CompUSA for 2. Publishers do not buy 'shelf space.' What they buy is placement. Like an Endcap, or a window, or a certain spot on a certain shelf. The generic gaming shelves are made by statisticians who collect data within companies. Stop talking out of your fucking ass. Seriously, just stop

[Paelos]

I agree that I don't think the shift is what bothers me as much as the faith put in people involved with the shift. Glean from that what you will.

[El Gallo]

Not my sandbox, but I would like to see one small change: a "MMOG" or "Online Gaming" forum.  Having those posts in with every other kind of game and with hardware discussions on the same forum seems a bit overdone.  I am all in favor of you guys casting a broader net, but I would like to have a place that feels a little like the old place, the older place, and the way way older place that we have all migrated from.

I also suspect that we are less likely to get MMOG developer participation in a forum that is 99% Counterstrike threads.

Like I said, not my sandbox, but I think a lot of the old fogeys who are still addicted to the treadmil and a lot of the old fogies who still like to rage against the treadmill would appreciate our own little pail and shovel in the corner.

[Snowspinner]

And they did register. Which says something. Since, frankly, they were the only devs posting on WT.

As for schild, the quote seems true enough. Publishers do not pay stores to stock their game in the first place - they pay stores to promote their game. This is... ummm...

You're not a fan of facts, are you?

[Bunk]

So Snow, was that an underhanded jab at certain other Devs?  Poor Psychochild managed the mighty honor of 1st post here you know.

[Snowspinner]

Nah. I don't make underhanded jabs at devs. I make explicit jabs.

Incidentally, Raph, your game is a steaming pile of crap.

[HRose]

Snowspinner wrote:

And they did register. Which says something. Since, frankly, they were the only devs posting on WT.

There's also Copper, Dave and various devs peeking from time to time (I think Hellmar from CCP, Calandryll, Wish producer and other devs from text-games. Then there are non-devs like the Themis group).

El Gallo wrote:

Not my sandbox, but I would like to see one small change: a "MMOG" or "Online Gaming" forum. Having those posts in with every other kind of game and with hardware discussions on the same forum seems a bit overdone.

I always liked to have standard singleplayer games on the same forum along with mmogs, but I would suggest moving hardware discussions somewhere else.

EDIT: I also forgot devs from Shadowbane and there's an user signed as MarkJacobs

[schild]

I always liked to have standard singleplayer games on the same forum along with mmogs, but I would suggest moving hardware discussions somewhere else.

This is something that is being looked into and will be changed as necessary.

[slog]

And they did register. Which says something. Since, frankly, they were the only devs posting on WT.

As for schild, the quote seems true enough. Publishers do not pay stores to stock their game in the first place - they pay stores to promote their game. This is... ummm...

You're not a fan of facts, are you?

No, its just typical of him completely missing the point.

EDIT: What the fuck?  I'm replying to Snowspinner.  Suckered by the troll again.  Score 1 for snow.

[Riley]

Selling out usually implies some sort of profit is being made.

As far as I know I haven't gotten a solid gold yacht full of hookers yet. Maybe Joe has.

It is about the money though isn't it?

Who pays for Waterthread now, and who has the power to pull the plug on the site?

WT is just becoming dilluted.  Joe, you may not care about MMORGs any more, but I guess I don't care to read Dawn of the Dead reviews.

What is the audience WT is shooting for now?  Hardcore gamers or couch potatoes?  (maybe they think there is not much of a difference).

[kaid]

I think the change is a decent one opening it up to a bit more broad base instead of focusing on MMRPG. I am sure folks will still post about mmrpg and the ups and downs but making it more broad based can only help.

Myself I still play mmrpg quite a bit and infact have been enjoying the city of heros beta quite alot. Sure it is not anything super duper new but it does a good job of capturing the flavor of the super hero genera.

I will be looking forward to see how the new waterthread turns out.


Kaid

[Arthur_Parker]

I'm now firmly of the belief that the greatest threat to Waterthread in general, in fact I would even go so far as to say the gravest threat to civilisation itself, is not the change of web host.

Nor, in fact, the as yet totally unseen new front page.

I do fear it is the new habit of quoting other posters in your sig line, this is starting to concern me, please remember I pointed this danger out first.

[Callab]

I do fear it is the new habit of quoting other posters in your sig line, this is starting to concern me, please remember I pointed this danger out first.

I agree 100% with that statement.

[Mr_PeaCH]

I do fear it is the new habit of quoting other posters in your sig line, this is starting to concern me, please remember I pointed this danger out first.

I agree 100% with that statement.

Hear, hear!

[Beckett]

From the sound of it, Waterthread will continue to do everything it's been doing for the last several months; it's just going to be doing some of those things more officially.  The change in address seems more a reaction to than a cause of the change in the site and community.  If Joe's not interested in MMORPGS, he's not going to write about them, whether the site moves or not, whether you want him to or not.

[Neph]

but I guess I don't care to read Dawn of the Dead reviews.

That was no review.

[WayAbvPar]

I think it will be fun- setting Haemish's bitter ass loose on subjects other than games might be quite amusing. Hell, I might even submit something at some point (I know, you are all atwitter with anticipation). I just hope there are some new site skins available in the future.

Also, my old avatar is too big. Adios, Jesus!

[Mesozoic]

OMGWTFSOL, Copper hasn't registered!  

Piss!

Moan!

I just want to be here when SirB starts posting.

[HaemishM]

Wow, a sell-out. What the fuck are you, 12?

Sell-out implies any of us is getting paid. When there's no money involved, how the fuck can you sell out?

Waterthread is and always has been Joe's playground. Sometimes he gives people like me the pail and shovel and let's me dig in the sandbox. If he ever told me "I don't want you to write about MMOG's" then I wouldn't write about MMOG's or I wouldn't get published on here.

There's fuckall new to say about MMOG's. They've made zero progress since I started playing them and they've made zero progress since I started writing about them. I've been racking my brain trying to come up with something to say about MMOG's that amounts to more than "You suck, your children will suck, and future generations will laugh at your naivete." Joe's in the same boat, probably worse off than me, since he seems to be playing EQ again or something.

Waterthread can be about more than just MMOG's. Console games, movies, politics, general bitching, sounds good to me. Hell, I watch more movies than film critics, I just never wrote front page stuff about them because we were mostly about MMOG's. Now we're not, you may actually see more front page stuff.

Don't you want to hear my views on Oliver Stone's career?

[shiznitz]

Well, my old nick (shiznitz) wouldn't take. The email confirmation link was non-functional. That is the only thing that remotely bothers me about this move.

[Evil Elvis]

PA doesn't ignore mmorpg's, they just don't dwell on them.  They don't dwell on any game inparticular really, except when they start going on about game X at their next lan party.  They've made posts/comics on swg, ac2, and planetside off the top of my head.

It does seem fairly certain that they emailed the devs about the site change, since 5 of the first people to register were devs.  It's not really suprising, however.

As far as the site, I reall only cared about the mmorpg discussions.  If they continue on, I'll still check in.

[Daeven]

I thought the point of waterthread was t olaugh at the frenzied MMOG fans, who seem unable to realize they love the skinner box.

You mean the scope is being expanded to 'officially' cover other areas of idiocy and stupidity in gaming?

Score!