Waterthread searching hopelessly for direction?

[schmoo]

I do so hope folks will keep blathering about MMOGs here, I love to read that shit, it never seems to get old.

Even though, as Haemish says, there's nothing to say, that never stopped anyone from saying it.  No need to change, guys, keep babbling.  I need to be entertained.

[Riley]

Wow, a sell-out. What the fuck are you, 12?

Sell-out implies any of us is getting paid. When there's no money involved, how the fuck can you sell out?

Ouch, the age insult - how original and clever.

Selling out doesn't have to be about money, although you guys are so defensive on the matter, it makes me wonder.  Really though, its about the betrayal of the cause!  Our Holy Quest™ to improve MMORPGs and turn the genre into the ultimate gaming environment is now going to fail, and its all your fault!

Or something like that anyway, hell, it just doesn't feel right to me.

Don't you want to hear my views on Oliver Stone's career?

I am giddy with anticipation

[Merusk]

Where the fuck is Boog?  This thread needs some serious "Quit your sand-in-the-pussy whining" type of Boog love.

[Arydon]

Our Holy Quest™ to improve MMORPGs and turn the genre into the ultimate gaming environment is now going to fail, and its all your fault!

I thought the "quest" was over. It is for me. I accepted that the super happy fun MMOG that was the object of my gaming wet dreams was never going to come, for reasons that have been stewed over here and elsewhere for half a decade. It's just not going to happen.

[Boogaleeboo]

Where the fuck is Boog?  This thread needs some serious "Quit your sand-in-the-pussy whining" type of Boog love.

Personally, I find the current situation more insulting to those involved than anything I myself could think to say.

I mean shit, schild and Joe? And what, Chiastic too?

That's a website for the ages.

Man, you can't make up shit this funny.

[schild]

Where the fuck is Boog?  This thread needs some serious "Quit your sand-in-the-pussy whining" type of Boog love.

Personally, I find the current situation more insulting to those involved than anything I myself could think to say.

I mean shit, schild and Joe? And what, Chiastic too?

That's a website for the ages.

Man, you can't make up shit this funny.

How can you possibly forget Soulflame and Haemish?

[Boogaleeboo]

Fuck you guys. We're not changing our format, we like it how it is. We'll talk about the movies on the disc. We have no reason to talk about the video or sound quality, whatever the studio decides to put out is their decision, and if it ruins a film, then that's part of the review. How much we like or want to review a movie is based on the actual movie - the director's vision, the studio's vision or whatever. Not on whether or not it comes with a pair of Patricia Arquette's used panties. Though...

Possibly because I haven't read Waterthread or #hate in a few weeks really, and didn't know they were here. Having Haemish isn't a positive, and I think the last time Soulflame found something he wanted to talk about was 1987. Maybe.

Mostly because of gems like the above.

As I said, I couldn't make it up if I tried.

[malloc]

Hmm, seems exactly like wto here so far. What's the worry again?

Oh yeah the forums are arranged differently. Its doomed.

[dyvvu]

I thought the "quest" was over. It is for me. I accepted that the super happy fun MMOG that was the object of my gaming wet dreams was never going to come, for reasons that have been stewed over here and elsewhere for half a decade. It's just not going to happen.

But... but... What about Guild Wars? It will do away with the frustrating elements of MMOG gameplay such as treadmill gaming and create a fun and exciting experience right from the start of the game, even for first time players. It has been designed to reward gamers for their playing skill, and not solely for the number of hours they've spent gaming, which enables well-balanced competitive missions between players of almost all skill levels... what more could you want?

--dyvvu

[Rasix]

 what more could you want?

Less slathering fanbois.

I can't wait until your holy grail turns you into another bitter hollow shell of gaming optimism that these games tend to produce.  Anyone thinking ANY future game in this genre is immune to suck is in for an eye opener.

[HaemishM]

Wow, a sell-out. What the fuck are you, 12?

Sell-out implies any of us is getting paid. When there's no money involved, how the fuck can you sell out?

Ouch, the age insult - how original and clever.

Never claimed to be original or clever. But saying we are "selling out" sounds to me like you are pissed off about Metallica getting paid to make music. Like that's somehow surprising or something. Now when we start threatening to sue you for quoting our stories, then you can fully have considered us to sell out.

Selling out doesn't have to be about money, although you guys are so defensive on the matter, it makes me wonder.  Really though, its about the betrayal of the cause!  Our Holy Quest™ to improve MMORPGs and turn the genre into the ultimate gaming environment is now going to fail, and its all your fault!

I'm not a paladin or a cleric, and I realized a long time ago that the only hope I have of changing MMOG's from shitty bugfests to decent games was to not pay for shitty bugfests. My writing is all about my ego. I actually think I have something worthwhile and entertaining to say, unoriginal though it may be. I don't care if it's orginal so long as its honest.

Again, selling out assumes someone has something to gain from me bumpfuzzling their product, including me. SegaSports offered me nothing for the fellatio of ESPN NFL 2k4 I gave, and Horizons gave me no luv for telling the world what it already knew. My writing has changed, because I have changed, and MMOG's have not changed. Thus, I need something new to write about.

Not that I won't every once in a while reiterate that MMOG's suck ass and needs to learn a lot of lessons. I'll just be telling you how much I like the latest DVD too. Or hate it.

[dyvvu]

 what more could you want?

Less slathering fanbois.

I can't wait until your holy grail turns you into another bitter hollow shell of gaming optimism that these games tend to produce.  Anyone thinking ANY future game in this genre is immune to suck is in for an eye opener.

I was joking.

[Rasix]

 what more could you want?

Less slathering fanbois.

I can't wait until your holy grail turns you into another bitter hollow shell of gaming optimism that these games tend to produce.  Anyone thinking ANY future game in this genre is immune to suck is in for an eye opener.

I was joking.

Thank the risen lord.  It's hard to tell lately. With WoW coming around, GuildWars, etc, people have been tending to slip back into "OMG THIS GAME WILL CURE CANCER" mode lately.

[Arydon]

I was joking.

We code for web accessibility guidelines now. Please use <sarcasm> tags to be picked up by the screen readers of the humor-impaired.

[Ironwood]

Thank the risen lord.  It's hard to tell lately. With WoW coming around, GuildWars, etc, people have been tending to slip back into "OMG THIS GAME WILL CURE CANCER" mode lately.

I noticed that myself.  It was starting to get like SWG v2 on the old boards.

And look how well SWG v1 turned out...

[Mr_PeaCH]

I was joking.

We code for web accessibility guidelines now. Please use <sarcasm> tags to be picked up by the screen readers of the humor-impaired.

This sounds like a great innovation.  Often my posts miss their mark and I feel like the reader didn't understand I was being sarcastic or otherwise tongue-in-cheek.  However I have not located the sarcasm tag thingy to use... little help please?  Thx

[Ironwood]

Double bluff or triple bluff.  Arg, my head hurts.

[gith]

I have more fun discussing the possibilities of MMOGs on message boards and in irc than I actually do playing them. Hell, I now spend more time thinking about game design and dynamics than actual realtime strategy or class optimization.

Message boards and IRC just seem to be the place where once-succesful players go to die.

[Arthur_Parker]

This sounds like a great innovation.  Often my posts miss their mark and I feel like the reader didn't understand I was being sarcastic or otherwise tongue-in-cheek.  However I have not located the sarcasm tag thingy to use... little help please?  Thx
_________________
... the greatest threat to Waterthread in general, in fact I would even go so far as to say the gravest threat to civilisation itself ... is the new habit of quoting other posters in your sig line

- Arthur_Parker, deep thinker and noted anglophile

Often my posts miss their mark and I feel like the reader didn't understand I was being sarcastic or otherwise tongue-in-cheek.

[Kyper]

I have more fun discussing the possibilities of MMOGs on message boards and in irc than I actually do playing them. Hell, I now spend more time thinking about game design and dynamics than actual realtime strategy or class optimization.

Message boards and IRC just seem to be the place where once-succesful players go to die.

Yeah.  That's the meta game:  armchair developing or becoming an mmo observer instead of an mmo player.  

After 14 years of muds and mmos, I'm still looking for one that brings back "teh magic" of the first text muds and the first graphical muds I played.

[Arydon]

That's the meta game:  armchair developing or becoming an mmo observer instead of an mmo player.

Just like professional sports: burn out, then host the pre-game show.

[AOFanboi]

PA doesn't ignore mmorpg's, they just don't dwell on them.  They don't dwell on any game inparticular really, except when they start going on about game X at their next lan party.  They've made posts/comics on swg, ac2, and planetside off the top of my head.

Plus FFXI at least.

Their biggest gaming focus, if they have any, is the XBox. What with getting invited to Microsoft every now and then and all that, it's perhaps understandable.

[AOFanboi]

what more could you want?

A game that doesn't FAIL to live up to the hype when released. Remember back when Horizons was going to be the Holy Grail? Remember the laggy mess that finally was released? Now it's World of Warcraft that's getting beta praise (even though it's made by the same guys who vehemently failed to curb cheating on their Diablo 1/2 servers).

Oh, and Guild Wars. And City of Heroes.

Fool me once, and all that. Except it seems MMORPG players are inherently optimists, and keep buying the Next Best Thing in the futile hope it will not suck. Yes, myself included (though I skipped on Neocron and Shadowbane).

[Neph]

Well, with Blizzards no NDA on the beta, we are all actually seeing that indeed... WoW is pretty fucking great so far. Only more good news can come.

[Snowspinner]

Or we're seeing that Blizzard let Blizzard fanbois into the beta. It's tough to tell. Lord knows there's enough Blizzard fanbois.

[Kyper]

Or we're seeing that Blizzard let Blizzard fanbois into the beta. It's tough to tell. Lord knows there's enough Blizzard fanbois.

True.  But lifting the NDA at the very start of beta still takes balls.  Big ones.

[HRose]

Remember back when Horizons was going to be the Holy Grail?

Honestly? No.

About WoW: Blizzard, for now, has dodged the core points. Releasing a capped game with fun and quick gameplay works for a beta but not for a mmorpg that should be able to keep the interest alive for years.

They've shown a pretty void. No PvP, no endgame.
Is still to see if WoW is a good game or not, what matters is what you do after the first month of play. At this point they could even slow down the whole process and wipe completely what's good in the game.

They are collecting good vibes for now. But good vibes founded on nothing.

[AOFanboi]

Only more good news can come.

No. One possible bad thing that can come is that stuff that works for the small-ish number of beta players will not scale to a fully loaded server. I present Exhibit A, Anarchy Online, at its launch.

Another thing that could be bad news is if they don't manage to properly playtest content for levels above 30. Or even add any for that matter. But perhaps that's what the "stage 2" beta is for?

[Mesozoic]

They've shown a pretty void. No PvP, no endgame.

Stop acting like WoW owes you PvP.  They couldn't be more explicit about the unimportance of PvP in WoW without using the term "Fuck off."

[XplOrOrOr]

They've shown a pretty void. No PvP, no endgame.

Stop acting like WoW owes you PvP.  They couldn't be more explicit about the unimportance of PvP in WoW without using the term "Flower off."

 The reason why MMORPG fans were/are still..... hoping to see intense PvP in WoW is because Blizzard is ultra famous for having perma-death in Diablo 2.

 There is NOTHING like playing Diablo 2 in Hardcore Mode.
Duel emotions are constantly ripping the player apart - Fear and happiness, adrenalin (sp) rush and depression, anger and happiness.
 And there IS a market for PvP...... PvP done right.

 So far IMHO Anarchy Online, and Star Wars Galaxies are the 2 current MMORPGs with PvP done right compared to everything else out.
(And EvE.....but it's a space only MMORPG.)

 AO has PvP for landcontrol. Yes! Along with 24hr security systems, low level players having a legit chance a killing higher level players.

 SWG allows players to have their own NPC armies to help in PvP, no matter if their guild/PA is offline. As well as allowing newer players a legit chance to be able to kill a vet player. Now if ONLY SWG also had PvP for landcontrol...... and NPC spawning based on which faction owned land in the area..... :)

[Jacob0883]

No. One possible bad thing that can come is that stuff that works for the small-ish number of beta players will not scale to a fully loaded server. I present Exhibit A, Anarchy Online, at its launch.

Blizzard has never been ready for the amount of people that buy their game.  Diablo 2 and Warcraft 3 fell through the floor when they first started.  I don't think this will be much different.  I think it took them a while to get D2 up and running the way it should have been.  

Just keep us updated on how beta is going and tell us what you think of the gameplay.  Thanks.

[HRose]

They've shown a pretty void. No PvP, no endgame.

Stop acting like WoW owes you PvP.  They couldn't be more explicit about the unimportance of PvP in WoW without using the term "Fuck off."

When I say "endgame" I mean what could become an endgame.
And there are two ways actually: PvP and high-end content.
Both -missing- at this state of tthe beta. So Blizzard is showing nothing about the soul of the game. Both if this soul will be PvP or PvE.

About PvP in particular. I'm not pushing Blizzard to have that part. They told me about PvP. They explained more or less in which forms it will come, they told it will be one of the main parts (and endgame) of their plan.

Not me.

[gith]

About WoW: Blizzard, for now, has dodged the core points. Releasing a capped game with fun and quick gameplay works for a beta but not for a mmorpg that should be able to keep the interest alive for years.

When I was at e3 last year and played the on one of the WoW alpha clients they had set up, I remember specifically asking about end game and leveling caps. The answer that I received was along the lines that leveling in WoW would be setup something similar to AC1, i.e. there would be no level cap and that you could continue to earn xp up 'till level N but also it was an exponential scale. Meaning at a high level N, the difference between N and N/2 would be like 10 skill points or whatever. It was awhile ago, so I'm not too sure of the details or even if the person they had at the booth answering questions had enough clout to answer that question.

[Azhrarn]

 There is NOTHING like playing Diablo 2 in Hardcore Mode.
Duel emotions are constantly ripping the player apart - Fear and happiness, adrenalin (sp) rush and depression, anger and happiness.
 And there IS a market for PvP...... PvP done right.

D2 hardcore was indeed fun for the most part, but it was never in any form about the pvp.  Diablo 2 PVP was all about the one shot kills, or running around in a stalemate for 10 minutes until someone screws up their timing.

[randomly sidetracking]
PVP and PVE can indeed mix, but not in games where enemies are made harder by increasing their life and such geometrically compared to player characters.  Damage output targeted toward killing enemies with thousands of HP doesn't balance well for player characters with hundreds.

I'd like to see more games with mobs targeted around the same power levels as player characters.  Although of course the typical reason this doesn't happen is for reasons of AI.  This is essentially what happens in RTS games though when the AI gets the same units player characters do.

Of course I've developed an obscene Nethack addiction lately, so maybe I just want games that are hard on their own merits, but not at the idotic 50+ player "raid" levels that some of these games think constitutes a fun challenge.
[/randomly sidetracking]

Now if ONLY SWG also had PvP for landcontrol...... and NPC spawning based on which faction owned land in the area..... :)

I thought the only thing SWG needed was that "fun" thing I've been hearing so much about.  Of course, it does have milking.

[Roac]

After 14 years of muds and mmos, I'm still looking for one that brings back "teh magic" of the first text muds and the first graphical muds I played.

I think you're going to be waiting a while.  The magic with the first time you hit a MUD, or the first time you logged into UO (or whatever popped your MMOG cherry), is right there - it's the first time.  It's new.  You do stupid shit, like train cooking because you think it would be fun to be the Aragorn-rangerish type.  Or you train smith, so you can make your own weapons.

THen you realize you're getting shit-canned by everyone else out there who figured out long ago that there was some sort of skill cap, and that left no room for cooking.  So you actually learn the rules of the game, to try to compete with these guys.  You aim for the endgame, because only with high skills can you reasonably compete with your opponent.  His +10% chance to hit and +10% damage on a hit, relative to you, is just too much to ignore if you take any sort of "I want to win" attitude.

Along the way, you forget what it was to start with that got you into this mess.  At some point you see a site like this, and make a post about how the last ten dollar trick just wasn't as good as the first go round.  So here you are.  I suggest you not look very hard for your exit off this ride - you passed it fourteen years ago.