Game Feature: City of Heroes Beta Wrapup

[Sky]

Gripe about something you know about next time, so you don't look so ignorant.

I said ignorant, not stupid. Pointing out that you don't know what you're talking about is not an insult. Sure, I don't know L2, but I've played several level-based pvp mmogs, so it's not like I'm ignorant of the basic concepts involved. If I had called you an ignorant asshole, that's different, but I didn't.

*sigh* I shouldn't bother, but...

Especially when the facts relating to the element of coh he was talking about, the tutorial were in error on his part, not mine.

No, I was talking about my own experience, and I stated it as such. So you have to deal with slow power cycling for what? An hour? Two? Out of how many hours you'll eventually spend playing the game? Yeah, I'd much rather spend those 18 levels wasting time grinding exp on useless levels, as you've admitted the first 18 in L2 are. Does it take an hour or two to bypass those levels? If so, nm, but I imagine (don't know!) that it's longer than that.

But failing all that when the level cap is reached the playing field is equal anyway.  So what you really are complaining about is the length of the grind, again.

So you have unbalanced pvp all the way until you've hit the end of the treadmill. Then why have the treadmill? And I will /always/ complain about the length of a grinding treadmill, if the game isn't fun or if it's not necessary (see Planetside), but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about level-based pvp and my OPINION that it's fucking moronic. Because really, it is. In my opinion. Maybe you could try to change that opinion, since you seem to like level-based pvp a lot.

No, you have failed to acknowledge the fact that character advancement doesn't have to equate to power.  I'll say it again characters can advance without gaining power over other characters.  You can design your character advancement around depth of character rather than the power of the character.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. I believe that in a pvp-centric title of ANY genre no character should be outright stronger than another just because he's been played longer. A newbie and a vet should have the same potential. The vet will have developed skills and knowledge that make him more effective.

As cev pointed out, character advancement != character power, nor should it. The only reason one character would want an artificial advantage over another is...well, let's just say it's negative reasoning. I don't want that to be mistaken for an 'attack' on you, I'm not high enough level to defend myself :P

Time invested doesn't have to mean power.

This is one of those moronic things. I shouldn't be gimped because I have a social life imo. I'm not gimped in Battlefield because of it, but I am in mmogs. Battlefield I feel is great pvp, mmogs not so much.

You will never convinced me that a pure PVE game is worth playing

Wasn't even trying. In fact, I believe I said if you don't like it, just move on. You generally won't see me talking much about Lineage2 because I just don't care about it. In fact, you'll see me talk about how much I don't think pve belongs in pvp mmogs at all as a basis for advancement, because it's disconnected from the actual meat of the game and could easily be done away with for a new system that makes more sense within the product as a whole.

I will never convince you that every person out there who likes pvp in mmorpg's does not want to digitally invade your anus

Want aside, if I'm level 25 and he's level 50, that's what's going to happen. Which is of course so much fun for the 25th level guy, I'm sure.

A level 1 Planetside character vs. a level 20 Planetside character is an equal battle, the only difference will be the skill of the player controlling the toon.  PvP games should be designed around depth of character instead of making time invested = guaranteed win.  

That's what I'm saying. Damn work for letting cevik debate this for me, hah. But I kinda like it...

[Alluvian]

I agree with Cevik and Sky.

Also found this funny in light of your comment on the other thread about your future wife and kids:

You will never convinced me that a pure PVE game is worth playing

By the time you get two dwarves leveled up to 40 (one dwarf is pretty useless by himself) with your RL commitments the City of Villians expansion and pvp might actually be implemented.  We shall see, hehe.

[Edited to add:]
The only PVP I think would really work well in CoH would be instanced objective based encounters balanced to team level.  But winning the missions should give you a big exp boost.  That way the pvp crowd would have a way to play the game and advance with no pve.  PVE and PVE are like water and oil.  They just don't mix in the same game.  At least not in any game made to date.

[Arthur_Parker]

Sky, you can't have it both ways, either I drop it and move on as I happily agreed to do, at your very first request.  Or I don't.

I fail to see the logic in you writing a long ass post like that, with another drop it and move on in the middle, and then expecting a response to your comments.

I'm dammed if I do, dammed if I don't.

[gith]

I must have played a different CoH than you. This isn't fanboi speak, just clarification.

Rikti invasion was the same. I actually think they handled it better last year than they did this. However, I also think they're saving the "good" one for the paying customers, maybe as part of story-arc dealio.

Flying wasn't in? What did you play? Every character I tried had Super Speed and Fly and Super Jumping. I had a great time jumping really high off a building then hitting Fly then hitting Super Speed. Sucked up a lot of time.

The characters were all pre-rolled. Duh. Demo. Alpha.

Point-and-click? Shit. W-A-S-D movement and # keys for powers was in even then. People who activate powers by selecting target and hitting activation buttons die. A lot.

Power Cycling, yes, that was an issue. I immediately didn't like having to stand there getting beat while my powers refresg

So what has changed from last year? Not a lot actually. The UI, the quantity of content and the fleshing out of the archetypes really. The game was what it was going to be a full year ago, and it was playably polished even them.

It had to be a different demo then.

I didn't know if they were just promoting the character creation process at the time, but that was what everyone at the time was doing. No super speed, flying or jumping. Just the typical newbie skills and content. (and there were no missions at the time, so all there was to do was jump 'the fence' and kill the thugs and I wasn't even close to level 2 by the time that I left) And at level one, EVERYONE knows that it sucks waiting for your one or two powers to reset. Thats what I experienced.

I played the beta for a few weeks so I know that the game changed and is good. I didn't preorder it, but will probably pick it up in a few months when the price comes down (if there are still people playing it).

It is one of those "we shall see" things, if it takes the Cryptic people forever to add new content to the game, or if there aren't creative or special developer-lead events then I believe that the game will stagnate. Which was the point of my original post, which was to let the beta testers that this rikti invasion was not special and to question how well the CoH content is going to be created.

[Alluvian]

Agreed with that gith, the game will live or die on future content generation.  And it will never be huge, because by design it is focusing very heavily on just one aspect of mmog gaming (combat) which is pretty much the definition of niche.

[HaemishM]

No I'm not conceding Sky is right.  PVP games in which the game design allows in-game tactics and character creation choices to affect the outcome of battles.  Where it is possible to win against a higher level, where twitch is a small factor, where random elements and the use of terrain can affect the outcome.  These type of games have an audience.  But failing all that when the level cap is reached the playing field is equal anyway.  So what you really are complaining about is the length of the grind, again.

Haven't read the thread after this comment yet, because I just had to comment.

Please to tell me where in games like Lineage 2 terrain affects anything but your view of the world. Or in-game tactics. The only thing that matters in PVP in Lineage 2 is level and character creation (which in a grind-dependent game like L2, means shitloads of time invested).

I think you've missed the part where a good number of people enjoying CoH are people like me, who swore they'd never enjoy another game that didn't have PVP. Sure, it's somewhat predictable, sure the scale is weighted so that the player will always (eventually) win, but the process of playing is fun all along the way. You didn't enjoy your brief time in it, that's cool. I had the same problem with Lineage 2; nothing in it's first 5 levels impressed me at all.

I'll take the name of CoH Fanbois, mainly because it's the first MMOG in a LONG time that I actually felt deserved evanglization.

[Daeven]

CoH is the first MMOG I've played... in 3 years? Longer maybe?

Anyway. It's fun. And the hour or so a night (with perhaps a bit more on saturday) seems to be working just fine.

*shrug*

I cannot say the same thing about my attempt at Lineage 2.

[Arthur_Parker]

Please to tell me where in games like Lineage 2 terrain affects anything but your view of the world. Or in-game tactics. The only thing that matters in PVP in Lineage 2 is level and character creation (which in a grind-dependent game like L2, means shitloads of time invested).

In game tactics, sure take any pvp game, draw up 2 sides of 12 players each, try to balance their abilites and classes to make each side as even as possible.  Watch them fight out a battle against each other a few times, what you will see as the number of encounters increases are tactics.  Terrain, even easier slap a hill between the 2 sides and watch the tactics change.

As for your other comments, I don't have any real axe to grind about coh, it's just not for me as L2 is not for you.  I can't really comment on it in depth as it didn't hold my interest long enough.

[bignatz]

First major screwup.

Patch nerfs some powers into the netherworld. Boards go bonkers. Patch is rerolled. Devs plead to be forgiven. Damage done.

Said nerfs confirmed for future patch. Reaction to Mr NoLife getting to 40 in 2 weeks (huh? what`s new?). Powers supposedly to be adjusted on the altar of balance. Those who play can count the upcoming nerfs on the fingers. Unfortuately those will be the cool powers that make the game fast (again: what`s new?).

Level-grindification to be expected to guarantee longevity. Game-cancellation also expected because, really... what`s new?

~bignatz

[Toast]

Bignatz-
Nice whining on the City of Heroes official forums. Thanks for contributing your pollution there.

To me, you signify a deep problem with the fanbase of MMOGs that require balancing. An overpowered skill gets "nerfed" in fucking week 2, and you cancel even though you admit you "like the game".

Nice work.

[Rasix]

I think this phrase should be credited to J but...

Call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahmbulance.

[bignatz]

Bignatz-
Nice whining on the City of Heroes official forums. Thanks for contributing your pollution there.

To me, you signify a deep problem with the fanbase of MMOGs that require balancing. An overpowered skill gets "nerfed" in fucking week 2, and you cancel even though you admit you "like the game".

Nice work.

I'm not whining about the nerf. I'm whining because of the nerf sans respec.

Nerfing/balancing is obviously necessary. Rerolling after nerfs is something that I stopped doing a long long time ago.

Respec is my only insurance against the stop-n-go of these games. Thought I made my reasons clear, guess I didn't.

Not sure how that makes me a deep deep problem (except that I quit paying... that's what you meant?), nor am I still part of any fanbase.

[Valmorian]

Nerfing/balancing is obviously necessary. Rerolling after nerfs is something that I stopped doing a long long time ago.

Some foresight might have helped here, then.

Look at the Hasten power through an objective view:
A power that with 2DO enhancements can be always on, and gives the equivalent of 1SO recharge reduction to every power.

Hm, does that seem balanced?  Hell, not to me.  I expected some balancing would be done to that power.

"Nerfed into oblivion" is a gross overstatement, as well.  It's obviously still a useful ability.

[cevik]

Some foresight might have helped here, then.

One thing the developers should have learned long long ago is that you should never expect your players to have foresight.  Yes, any intelligent person who contemplated the power would have realized that it's overpowered, but by and large, intelligent people don't play MMOGs.

If you doubt my assertion, http://vnboards.ign.com/">click here.

[bignatz]

Some foresight might have helped here, then.

Criticism accepted.

I was in beta, where Hasten was openly discussed and nerfed twice. Someone (Geko?) stated at the end that it worked now as intended.

I'm not on the inside track in CoH. I don't have access to the level 30 insider info of what's the uberpower du jour. I made it to feaking 19 since launch...

Now, of course, I'm completely mixed up... Stamina next? Leadership? Lingering radiation... which screws up MOB AI just like Caltrops did?

Whatever... I broke my principle of not playing level/class games without a respec. My own fault.

[Toast]

Did you even bother logging into the game to actually play before you started spewing your whines on every board you could find?

Really, what did a Hasten nerf actually do? It slightly decreased the power of your character. It slowed down your levelling curve.

So, you are going to take your ball and go home because they made the game a little more difficult? Because you won't hit level 40 as fast? I say this with all due respect: I think you should be posting at the city of heroes vault.

[Valmorian]

Some foresight might have helped here, then.

If you doubt my assertion, http://vnboards.ign.com/">click here.

I don't doubt your assertion one bit.  I never claimed people WOULD have foresight.  I'm just pointing out that whining that a power that is overpowered is balanced down is quite hilarious.  I have no sympathy for these people who complain that hasten is no longer a "must have".

Useless?  Hyperbole.  It's still a VERY useful ability, it's just not overpowered anymore.  So I'll point and laugh at those who were dumb enough to think that such an obviously overpowered skill was going to remain so.

Anyone who took hasten because they wanted a useful power still have a useful power, whining aside.

[cevik]

Anyone who took hasten because they wanted a useful power still have a useful power, whining aside.

Very true.  I use the power exactly the same as I did before, as a supercharge for tough battles.  In fact it wasn't until one of my groupmates last night asked me about that "nerf" that I even remembered that it had been nerfed.

[Valmorian]

Some foresight might have helped here, then.

I was in beta, where Hasten was openly discussed and nerfed twice. Someone (Geko?) stated at the end that it worked now as intended.

Anytime a flaw in a power is demonstrated that makes that power far more overpowered than it should be, it SHOULD be reduced in effectiveness.  Balance is more important than whines.

I'm not on the inside track in CoH. I don't have access to the level 30 insider info of what's the uberpower du jour. I made it to feaking 19 since launch...

So why do you care about the nerf?  The power still works, it still reduces the timers the same amount as before, you just can't use it ALL THE TIME.  Duh.

Now, of course, I'm completely mixed up... Stamina next? Leadership? Lingering radiation... which screws up MOB AI just like Caltrops did?

If Mob AI is screwed up by a power, I EXPECT it will be corrected.  Furthermore, you won't hear me whining when it is fixed.

Whatever... I broke my principle of not playing level/class games without a respec. My own fault.

I have no sympathy for this stance.  If I have a character and take abilities/powers, I take them because they fit my character conception.  If those abilities/powers turn out to be overpowered and are reduced in effectiveness, it doesn't alter my decision to take them at all.

I suppose if I was a powergamer, and took abilities because they would make me the most effective character possible I might care, but since those kinds of people annoy me... ...I think I'll laugh instead.

[Margalis]

In MMORPGs there will ALWAYS be nerfs, and always people who complain about them. The same thing happened in FFXI, they change something obviously broken and suddenly a bunch of people are making threads titled "OMG CAN U TRUST SQARE NEMORE?"

I can see people being upset if a nerf goes too far and really screws them over. If it just normalizes something it's just whining.