Game Feature: City of Heroes Beta Wrapup

[Alluvian]

If you ever solo you will like hasten.  When leveling up in beta I could rather easily do groups of 10+ minions a level or two higher than me.  Fireball, fire breath, fire rain and then the second fireball is ready again.  This just DECIMATES groups.  Depending on the clustering it will kill about half of them outright and the rest will be fleeing and almost dead.  Easy targets to oneshot with fireblast or flares.  It works without hasten, but is more painful.

And hasten has a lot of uses like when you JUST want to concentrate on one target and don't need to waste the large endurance drains of the aoes.  Or if you are facing big groups, with just one recharge timer on my fireball I can get off Fireball, firebreath, fire rain, fireball all without even a moments pause if using hasten.  In a group of two, just me and a controller this combo will kill every single one of a bunch of 10-15 evens without much endurance usage and with pretty much no damage at all.

And there will be respec in the game eventually.

[Arthur_Parker]

Power cycling was a HUGE concern for me.





...in the tutorial with a character that had one passive power.

Gripe about something you know about next time, so you don't look so ignorant.

Ice/Ice Blaster made it to level 7-8, had 2 cycling offense powers even in the tutorial, think had 4 cycling powers by the time I quit.  Maybe I should have mentioned the class, though judging by the rank smell of fanboi round here doubt it would have mattered.

What exciting elements of game play did I miss apart from killing mobs and waiting for powers to cycle?

Nothing, nothing. Just say you don't like it and move on, man. Move on.

That's what I thought, I don't like it, agreed I will try not disturb the happy thoughts anymore.

[Toast]

Something in that "Arthur_Parker" missed in his 2 levels of gameplay.

Great implementation of the Z-axis and a great integration of the game world/environment into combat tactics.

Every other MMOG I have played, the environment is simply a graphical skin that "gets in the way" in combat by lousing up pathfinding and creating geometry exploits. In this game, the environment is used in combat, and there are valid tactics involved. For example, using knockback powers at the top of a building as a form of crowd control.

[Toast]

P.S.
It's so very kewl to be contrarian

[Arthur_Parker]

P.S.
It's so very kewl to be contrarian

2 levels?  

STONE THE UNBELIEVER STONE HIM STONE HIM.

Are you at the back in a bad fake beard?

[Toast]

This reminds me of my friends trying to convince me to like sushi.

There's no accounting for taste. Sometimes when we really like something, there is an impulse to evangelize. There's no need for stoning. My apologies.

[Murgos]

Ice/Ice Blaster made it to level 7-8, had 2 cycling offense powers even in the tutorial, think had 4 cycling powers by the time I quit.  Maybe I should have mentioned the class, though judging by the rank smell of fanboi round here doubt it would have mattered.

You are aware that you can improve the recycle times up to 240% faster than they are initially yes?  Or that by the mid game you will have somewhere around 10 -15 powers many of which other ice/ice blasters won;t even have?

No sir, I don't think its cliqish fanboisism calling you wrong I think it's merely the fact that you are utterly wrong and picking at nits.  Come up with a legit gripe and people here will pay attention, but as long as you are going to make mountains out of mole-hills don;t expect a lot of sympathy.

that the E3 demo should have included them, I think is a valid comment. What exciting elements of game play did I miss apart from killing mobs and waiting for powers to cycle?

Really?  Do you think at E3 this year SOE should organize a 6 hour planes raid to show off the new high end content for EQ 2?  Is that really your argument?

[Arthur_Parker]

This reminds me of my friends trying to convince me to like sushi.

There's no accounting for taste. Sometimes when we really like something, there is an impulse to evangelize. There's no need for stoning. My apologies.

No need for that, my own fault for getting involved in the discussion, Gith's thoughts clicked with mine and I found it hard to resist.

[Arthur_Parker]

You are aware that you can improve the recycle times up to 240% faster than they are initially yes?  Or that by the mid game you will have somewhere around 10 -15 powers many of which other ice/ice blasters won;t even have?

Aware of the 2nd, the first to a lesser extent, that is pretty good.

No sir, I don't think its cliqish fanboisism calling you wrong I think it's merely the fact that you are utterly wrong and picking at nits.  Come up with a legit gripe and people here will pay attention, but as long as you are going to make mountains out of mole-hills don;t expect a lot of sympathy.

No pvp, all you do is kill mobs, I shouldn't have even tried it, only did cause all the reports were so very good.  

I wasn't expecting sympathy (...wtf?).    Just put my interference down to an honest desire to prevent a new cult forming and a horrible mass suicide of purple robbed followers when they nerf the phonebooth change ability.  CNN turning up on my doorstep to ask about it, I can do without.

Do you think at E3 this year SOE should organize a 6 hour planes raid to show off the new high end content for EQ 2?  Is that really your argument?

I think they should certainly show the end game of EQ2, a 6 hour raid from start to finish might stretch the non-eq player's time a little, I'd go with more of a highlight job personally.

[schild]

Here's my problem with your comments. If you can't enjoy CoH for the PvE it offers and character skill types it offers, how can you enjoy ANY MMO? This is just the most polished aspect of one of the best parts of MMO's. While ATITD covers crafting, CoH covers combat.

[Arthur_Parker]

Well I would like to honour my comment to Sky and retire from the thread, my problem is what's the point?
You know when you log in you will be stronger than when you log out, each day beings you closer to the day when you defeat the biggest challenge in the game, everything is predictable.
It lacks soul, it lacks depth, it lacks an element of danger for me that only unpredictable interactions with other possibly hostile players gives me.

[Rasix]

it lacks an element of danger for me that only unpredictable interactions with other possibly hostile players gives me.

And for that you're willing to put up with garbage like Lineage 2?  Where you have like 3 skills for 20 levels?  

I guess it takes all kinds.

[Arthur_Parker]

Afraid so, playing a dwarf too, so it's 2 skills spoil and sweep.  Half way through the level 20 class change quest though, I get combat skills soon! :P

Edited to add quest, wasn't sure I was clear.

[Rasix]

Game. Set. Match.

[Soukyan]

It lacks soul, it lacks depth, it lacks an element of danger for me that only unpredictable interactions with other possibly hostile players gives me.

Pop music is kinda like that too.

And Lineage 2? Good god man! Are you insane?! My gripe with them is that they advertised Seiges and Flying mounts for release and they didn't get them complete in time. Tsk tsk. Same old MMOG syndrome. ;)

[Alluvian]

I can't imagine even the PVP in L2 being any good.  Even after the class change all you have is like 5 skills (only 3 active if I recall), 2 of those shared with every other of initial class (Knight for instance got two warrior skills and a heal thing if I recall, the evil knight got the same two warrior skills and a lifetap, the warrior got three passive weapon skills...)

Target and auto attack is just as boring vs a human as vs a mob really.  You are still not matching your skill vs theirs.  You are first off matching your character vs theirs, and if the characters are identical (like oh so many are) you are more matching your connection with theirs.  In fps connection speed makes a difference as well, but a skilled player can compensate for that, and a poor player on a great connection will still be poor.  In L2 there is just no interactivity in combat.  I don't see suddenly adding PVE at X level will make it any better.  Unless you enjoy picking on noobs and azzraping them.

[Alrindel]

Shit, who doesn't?

[Sky]

though judging by the rank smell of fanboi round here doubt it would have mattered.

Personal attack for teh win! I forgot how much fun this section of the community is :|

Any PvP game framed in a level-based system is TOTALLY FUCKING MORONIC. Let's reward the best PvP player, or he who can grind exp and camp gear the fastest? I love PvP. But only on an even playing field, like UT or BF, and to an extent, Planetside. But when I'm told to go whack a mole for another month because Billy Roxxiznatch is 20 levels higher than me....well, that's just dumb.

imo

[Arthur_Parker]

Gripe about something you know about next time, so you don't look so ignorant.

Personal attack for teh win! I forgot how much fun this section of the community is :|

Any PvP game framed in a level-based system is TOTALLY FUCKING MORONIC. Let's reward the best PvP player, or he who can grind exp and camp gear the fastest? I love PvP. But only on an even playing field, like UT or BF, and to an extent, Planetside. But when I'm told to go whack a mole for another month because Billy Roxxiznatch is 20 levels higher than me....well, that's just dumb.

imo

Personal attack for teh win! I forgot how much fun this section of the community is :|

Gripe about something you know about next time, so you don't look so ignorant.

[cevik]

Personal attack for teh win! I forgot how much fun this section of the community is :|

Sky didn't attack your person at all.  He called the game dumb, but no where in his post did he even remotely attack you.  I know you are attempting to be witty, but it's really just making you look stupid.

[Arthur_Parker]

I was referring to his earlier post where he commented I was ignorant, you may not take that as a personal insult but I generally do.  Especially when the facts relating to the element of coh he was talking about, the tutorial were in error on his part, not mine.

Following that up with the statement that I was starting the personal attacks, when the opposite was true, then with a sweeping statement that "Any PvP game framed in a level-based system is TOTALLY FUCKING MORONIC. "

Shows to me that well, further conversation seems to be rather pointless.

[cevik]

I was referring to his earlier post where he commented I was ignorant, you may not take that as a personal insult but I generally do.  Especially when the facts relating to the element of coh he was talking about, the tutorial were in error on his part, not mine.

He wasn't being insulting, he was being honest, you did look ignorant.  Out of the hundreds of things that you could have mentioned about the game, you picked one area where there simply is no problem.  Then you preemptively attacked anyone who disagreed with you by saying they are all fanbois.  You clearly started the personal attacks, and I still haven't seen anything other than honesty from Sky.

Following that up with the statement that I was starting the personal attacks, when the opposite was true, then with a sweeping statement that "Any PvP game framed in a level-based system is TOTALLY FUCKING MORONIC. "

Shows to me that well, further conversation seems to be rather pointless.

Why would further conversation be pointless, are you conceding to the fact that Sky is right?  Level based PvP games are, to quote the man "TOTALLY FUCKING MORONIC."  Basing the ability to PvP on time invested, rather than skill at playing the game, is a moronic way to scale PvP.

[Arthur_Parker]

He wasn't being insulting, he was being honest, you did look ignorant.  Out of the hundreds of things that you could have mentioned about the game, you picked one area where there simply is no problem.

Which area was that?

Why would further conversation be pointless, are you conceding to the fact that Sky is right?  Level based PvP games are, to quote the man "TOTALLY FUCKING MORONIC."  Basing the ability to PvP on time invested, rather than skill at playing the game, is a moronic way to scale PvP.

No I'm not conceding Sky is right.  PVP games in which the game design allows in-game tactics and character creation choices to affect the outcome of battles.  Where it is possible to win against a higher level, where twitch is a small factor, where random elements and the use of terrain can affect the outcome.  These type of games have an audience.  But failing all that when the level cap is reached the playing field is equal anyway.  So what you really are complaining about is the length of the grind, again.

The comment that time investment PVP games are moronic fails to acknowledge the obvious fact that character advancement is impossible without time investment.  So therefore what you are really stating is that character advancement and PVP cannot co-exist, am I the only one left here who actually enjoyed UO for the freedom you had?

Further conversion is pointless because

A. You will never convinced me that a pure PVE game is worth playing

and

B. I will never convince you that every person out there who likes pvp in mmorpg's does not want to digitally invade your anus.

[cevik]

The comment that time investment PVP games are moronic fails to acknowledge the obvious fact that character advancement is impossible without time investment.  

No, you have failed to acknowledge the fact that character advancement doesn't have to equate to power.  I'll say it again characters can advance without gaining power over other characters.  You can design your character advancement around depth of character rather than the power of the character.  There are games that already do this, Sky mentioned a few, there are games http://www.guildwars.com">coming out that plan on doing this in the future.  Levels don't have to equal power.  Time invested doesn't have to mean power.

B. I will never convince you that every person out there who likes pvp in mmorpg's does not want to digitally invade your anus.

That's a bullshit ad hominem with absolutely no fucking basis in reality and it just goes to show that you fucking have no clue what you are talking about.  I took part in the design and implimentation, and ran a PvP+ MUD for years.  I was one of Shadowbane's biggest fanbois from the day I entered beta.  I love PvP combat.

Just because I think you're an idiot for because you picked the one aspect of CoH that is a non-issue to target and then resorted to ad hominems rather than arguing your case when it was pointed out that you were ignorant on the topic, doesn't mean I hate PvP.  Not everyone who disagrees with you is some PvP hating carebear.  The fact that you are wrong is why I disagreed with you, it had nothing to do with PvP.  You are an idiot.

[Arthur_Parker]

No, you have failed to acknowledge the fact that character advancement doesn't have to equate to power.  I'll say it again characters can advance without gaining power over other characters.  You can design your character advancement around depth of character rather than the power of the character.  There are games that already do this, Sky mentioned a few, there are games http://www.guildwars.com">coming out that plan on doing this in the future.  Levels don't have to equal power.  Time invested doesn't have to mean power.

Thank you for acknowledging that in every mmorpg on the market today character advancement does equal power.

B. I will never convince you that every person out there who likes pvp in mmorpg's does not want to digitally invade your anus.

That's a bullshit ad hominem with absolutely no fucking basis in reality and it just goes to show that you fucking have no clue what you are talking about.

Unless you enjoy picking on noobs and azzraping them.

I took part in the design and implimentation, and ran a PvP+ MUD for years.  I was one of Shadowbane's biggest fanbois from the day I entered beta.  I love PvP combat.

And now you are playing COH.  You all jumped on the SB bandwagon after knocking it for years (maybe not you personally) then everyone jumped on the SWG bandwagon, remember all the Raph threads?  This is just history repeating itself with COH.

Just because I think you're an idiot for because you picked the one aspect of CoH that is a non-issue to target and then resorted to ad hominems rather than arguing your case when it was pointed out that you were ignorant on the topic, doesn't mean I hate PvP.  Not everyone who disagrees with you is some PvP hating carebear.  The fact that you are wrong is why I disagreed with you, it had nothing to do with PvP.  You are an idiot.

Personal attack for teh win! I forgot how much fun this section of the community is :|

[Rasix]

Let me give you another chance to use that quote:

You sir, are a fucking idiot.  Now, continue to play the part of the stupid paddle in this game of board pong.

[cevik]

Thank you for acknowledging that in every mmorpg on the market today character advancement does equal power.

Just because no one has gotten in right doesn't mean it's not the right way to do it.  And it certainly doesn't even remotely help prove your point about CoH.

That's a bullshit ad hominem with absolutely no fucking basis in reality and it just goes to show that you fucking have no clue what you are talking about.

Unless you enjoy picking on noobs and azzraping them.

Nice fucking try but I didn't even remotely say that second quote, and I didn't even come close to saying it was right or even acknowledging that it existed in the thread until this very moment.  You took a quote that someone else said and then used it as evidence against me in a strange assumption that I had something to do with it.  You have proven yourself to be a grade fucking A asshole.

And now you are playing COH.  You all jumped on the SB bandwagon after knocking it for years (maybe not you personally) then everyone jumped on the SWG bandwagon, remember all the Raph threads?  This is just history repeating itself with COH.

And?  I've never said that CoH is the end all be all of games.  I think a lot of people here are going to be disillusioned very soon.  It's fun, Shadowbane was fun for awhile, SWG was fun for a shorter time.  I play video games to have fun.

I've said it 10 times in this thread, and I'll say it again.  There are a lot of things wrong with CoH and had you pointed at any of those things I would have agreed with you.  But you pointed out the one area where there are no issues.

Personal attack for teh win! I forgot how much fun this section of the community is :|

And?  I never said I wouldn't call you a fucking moron, you are a fucking moron.  You're a moron who fucking takes quotes from entirely different people and tries to use them as proof that I said something that I didn't even remotely say or even imply.  You are the lowest form of moron.  You don't deserve the air that you breath.  You are a fucking idiot moron asshole.

Ohh you must think I'm Sky, he was the one chastising personal attacks, not me.  Me and Sky, just like me and Alluvian, are totally different people, moron.

[Venkman]

(5 minute E3 impressions of CoH)

I'm only commenting because I also played CoH at last year's E3, also wrote a review about it and also looked forward to it. It stuck with me, though the review itself was lost when WT.o #1 because WT.o #2.

I must have played a different CoH than you. This isn't fanboi speak, just clarification.

Rikti invasion was the same. I actually think they handled it better last year than they did this. However, I also think they're saving the "good" one for the paying customers, maybe as part of story-arc dealio.

Flying wasn't in? What did you play? Every character I tried had Super Speed and Fly and Super Jumping. I had a great time jumping really high off a building then hitting Fly then hitting Super Speed. Sucked up a lot of time.

The characters were all pre-rolled. Duh. Demo. Alpha.

Point-and-click? Shit. W-A-S-D movement and # keys for powers was in even then. People who activate powers by selecting target and hitting activation buttons die. A lot.

Power Cycling, yes, that was an issue. I immediately didn't like having to stand there getting beat while my powers refresg

So what has changed from last year? Not a lot actually. The UI, the quantity of content and the fleshing out of the archetypes really. The game was what it was going to be a full year ago, and it was playably polished even them.

Not liking it is one thing. With all of the PvE out there, even good PvE can be boring. But holding on to impressions that were wrong even when they were written is not going to win debates :)

[daveNYC]

You can design your character advancement around depth of character rather than the power of the character.  There are games that already do this, Sky mentioned a few, there are games http://www.guildwars.com">coming out that plan on doing this in the future.  Levels don't have to equal power.  Time invested doesn't have to mean power.

Thank you for acknowledging that in every mmorpg on the market today character advancement does equal power.

Emphasis mine, just in case you missed it on the first read.

[Arthur_Parker]

I rather thought not providing a link to one, yet linking to a unreleased one meant he couldn't think of one off hand.  Notice you didn't link one either.

[cevik]

I rather thought not providing a link to one, yet linking to a unreleased one meant he couldn't think of one off hand.  Notice you didn't link one either.

Sky had already linked one, Planetside.  I was too pissed at you using Alluvian's quote against me to make a new link, that's why I mentioned he mentioned it above.

[cevik]

And?  I never said I wouldn't call you a fucking moron, you are a fucking moron.  You're a moron who fucking takes quotes from entirely different people and tries to use them as proof that I said something that I didn't even remotely say or even imply.  You are the lowest form of moron.  You don't deserve the air that you breath.  You are a fucking idiot moron asshole.

For the record, this was WAY over the top, and I apologize.  I forget that I have that f13.net title under my name now (it doesn't grant me any mod powers, it just gives me an outlet to post front page updates) and that I need to keep myself more in check.  Anyways, I'd delete the post but I don't want to appear to be covering up evidence of me being a jerk, so I'll let it stand with the caveat that I'm just a jerk..

[Arthur_Parker]

For the record, this was WAY over the top, and I apologize.  I forget that I have that f13.net title under my name now (it doesn't grant me any mod powers, it just gives me an outlet to post front page updates) and that I need to keep myself more in check.  Anyways, I'd delete the post but I don't want to appear to be covering up evidence of me being a jerk, so I'll let it stand with the caveat that I'm just a jerk..

No worries.  Thought planetside had character advancement as heard it was increased in first week after release, never played it though so wouldn't know for sure.  Not really sure what the one thing I was complaining about COH being and that not being valid, apart from not liking it that is.

[cevik]

No worries.  Thought planetside had character advancement as heard it was increased in first week after release, never played it though so wouldn't know for sure.

Planetside had character advancement, that was my point, the more advanced your character becomes, the deeper his skillset becomes, but, for the most part, you do not become more powerful.

When you start Planetside you have a few skill points, you can spend those skill points on any skill in the game, once you have the skill (actually it's called a certification) you can use it to the same degree as anyone else, i.e. if you get a "Heavy Weapons" skill you can use the same Heavy Weapons at level 1 as you can at level 20.  As you gain more levels, you get more skill points which you can use to unlock more skills, but it only lets your character become more versitile, not more powerful.

A level 1 Planetside character vs. a level 20 Planetside character is an equal battle, the only difference will be the skill of the player controlling the toon.  PvP games should be designed around depth of character instead of making time invested = guaranteed win.  

The only other option, and one that almost worked, is to have extremely fast leveling to the cap like Shadowbane.  Shadowbane also didn't put much emphasis on levels, as a level 45 character I could take on level 55+ characters, and with some skill I'd usually win.

Not really sure what the one thing I was complaining about COH being and that not being valid, apart from not liking it that is.

Waiting on powers to cycle was the thing I thought was silly.  Out of all the potential things wrong with CoH (ex:  it's not PvP), it seems silly to argue that waiting for powers to cycle is an issue.  I almost never find myself waiting for powers to cycle.

[Alluvian]

Thank you for acknowledging that in every mmorpg on the market today character advancement does equal power.

Planetside has already been mentioned a lot, I think CoH gets a minor honarary mention with their differentiation between SECURITY level and COMBAT level.  Security level is your actual level, Combat level is your sidekicked level.  The Security levels give you depth and diversity, and also one more combat level.  But the combat level can be boosted with the very nice but not perfect sidekick system.  So you can be security level 3 and competitive with security level 30 if your combat level has been boosted by sidekicking.  But the 30 still has the extra depth and versatility (powers and enhancement slots) that those levels have awarded him.

The only real problem with the sidekicking is that you can only sidekick on person per player.  So you can get in problems with uneven numbers of players leaving out a few lower level players.  Still the best system to date, but could have been better with a group sidekick feature or something.

And my comment about azzraping was taken pretty out of context and was entirely meant as a joke.  I should have turned on my sarcasm flags apparently.  I was looking for how the PVP is supposed to be fun in L2 because I am not seeing it with such limited character diversity and in-combat trigger-able skills.  I only stuck the assraping line at the end because we all know there are people out there who will always enjoy doing that in mmogs.  I don't even see how a perfectly balanced combat will be in in L2 though.