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Yegolev
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Reply #875 on: May 26, 2005, 11:52:58 AM

Awesome rant.  Pro-league material.  Well-done.

CUT TO: Palpatine stroking mustache screaming I AM THE DARK LORD OF THE SITH AND THE JEDI DON'T KNOW IT MWAHAHAHAHAHA Get it -- the DARK.  LORD.  OF.  THE.  SITH.

This part is particularly funny if you read it with the voice of Doctor Weird.  "BEHOLD!!!  CORN!!!"

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Reply #876 on: May 26, 2005, 12:02:21 PM

It's even funnier when you realize that's pretty much the entire dialogue of Palpatine as dark lord in the first two prequel movies.

Llava
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Reply #877 on: May 26, 2005, 12:36:13 PM


That doesn't take into account the fact that their innate reflexes have to be fucking incredible to deflect laser bolts.  Doing so would have to be almost entirely unconscious, so I don't think you could "trick" one into lowering their defences.


Again, as El Gallo explained and pointed out that it was explained several times in the movie- the Jedi were keeping it on the down-low that their powers were weakening.  The "deflecting laser bolts" thing is more than reflexes, it's an intuitive exercise in the force as demonstrated back in Episode 4 with Luke in the blast helmet.  If the Force is all wonky, their midichlorian spider-sense doesn't tingle and they don't have the pre-emptive knowledge of where to put that lightsabre so they don't get blastz0red.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Zane0
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Reply #878 on: May 26, 2005, 01:50:47 PM

Conceded.

That got me thinking though.  According to GL now, official continuity includes a time, 800 years ago, when there were Sith Lords running all over the galaxy, who were themselves eventually toppled by the Jedi.  If the entire Jedi order was disrupted by Palpatine alone, how did they defeat the Sith Lords before that?

The only explanation is that the side in power gets caught up in itself, and becomes easy to weaken by the smaller, but more-focused other side.  The sides will forever replace each other, which seems consistent with the established setting.  I guess there's an interim period before a decline too, when visions are good 'n clear, and prophecies are made.  In the prequels, this was the "Chosen One" prophecy, which wasn't completely revealed, because the rising Dark Side clouded further visions.  In Ep 6, Palpatine gloats about what he has foreseen, but his visions were faulty to a point, in that he didn't see his own death.  Perhaps this was unconsciously clouded by Luke and Ghost-Obi, the ascending light side?

I feel better now, actually.  Thank you f13!
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Reply #879 on: May 26, 2005, 02:24:47 PM

Conceded.

That got me thinking though.  According to GL now, official continuity includes a time, 800 years ago, when there were Sith Lords running all over the galaxy, who were themselves eventually toppled by the Jedi.  If the entire Jedi order was disrupted by Palpatine alone, how did they defeat the Sith Lords before that?



Because the Sith fought each other as much as they fought the Jedi.  Having only 2 Sith lords was made a rule because it worked better than having a lot of them, not because they liked being the underdogs.

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Zane0
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Reply #880 on: May 26, 2005, 02:45:42 PM

Well, it's been discussed that the "Master and Apprentice" line might not have meant that there were literally two Sith in the Galaxy.

And, most evidence of the Sith fighting each other is EU.  The SW canon seems to indicate that the Sith generally worked together, only ousting one another when the opportunity arose.  I think so, anyways?
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Reply #881 on: May 26, 2005, 02:57:40 PM

Well, it's been discussed that the "Master and Apprentice" line might not have meant that there were literally two Sith in the Galaxy.

And, most evidence of the Sith fighting each other is EU.  The SW canon seems to indicate that the Sith generally worked together, only ousting one another when the opportunity arose.  I think so, anyways?

Well, no... not really.  Every single Sith shown in the movies is shown trying to betray their master/apprentice and replace them.  Except Darth Maul who was too busy kicking ass and dying to betray anyone.  Dooku tries to turn Obi wan by practically telling him Sidious entire plan in AOTC.  Sidious betrays Dooku in Sith.  Vader tries to turn Luke to the darkside to replace the emperor and rule the galaxy "as father and son" in ESB.  The emperor tries to turn Luke in ROTJ to replace Vader whos mostly a used up tin can and not much of a Sith lord anymore.  They work together when they have too, but you can believe they are looking for the oportune moment to kill each other, and thats just with 2 guys, imagine how much worse it was with hundreds or thousands of them.

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Reply #882 on: May 26, 2005, 03:08:15 PM

Well, it's been discussed that the "Master and Apprentice" line might not have meant that there were literally two Sith in the Galaxy.

And, most evidence of the Sith fighting each other is EU.  The SW canon seems to indicate that the Sith generally worked together, only ousting one another when the opportunity arose.  I think so, anyways?

Well, no... not really.  Every single Sith shown in the movies is shown trying to betray their master/apprentice and replace them.  Except Darth Maul who was too busy kicking ass and dying to betray anyone.  Dooku tries to turn Obi wan by practically telling him Sidious entire plan in AOTC.  Sidious betrays Dooku in Sith.  Vader tries to turn Luke to the darkside to replace the emperor and rule the galaxy "as father and son" in ESB.  The emperor tries to turn Luke in ROTJ to replace Vader whos mostly a used up tin can and not much of a Sith lord anymore.  They work together when they have too, but you can believe they are looking for the oportune moment to kill each other, and thats just with 2 guys, imagine how much worse it was with hundreds or thousands of them.

Anakin was ready to replace Palpatine after joining him when Padme showed up on Mustufar.
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Reply #883 on: May 26, 2005, 03:30:04 PM

Yeah, they're not very nice to each other.  I know!  But, since some force users are more powerful than others, I don't think it'd be absolute chaos with more Sith, necessarily.  There'd probably be a lot of lesser Sith banding together under one really powerful ruler.

The Movies' Sith were all individually trained by Palpatine.  Since there were so few Sith in the Galaxy, every one of them had to be able to defeat almost any Jedi they came across.  As a result of this training, they were equipped with the skills necessary to face their master, hence the plotting.  In a scenario where there are thousands of Sith, I'd bet Masters would be much more paranoid with their teachings, training a lot of the weaker ones enough only to be effective tools, not potential usurpers.

At this point, it's all all extrapolation, though.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 03:31:57 PM by Zane0 »
MaceVanHoffen
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Reply #884 on: May 26, 2005, 03:37:35 PM

Yeah, they're not very nice to each other.  I know!  But, since some force users are more powerful than others, I don't think it'd be absolute chaos with more Sith, necessarily.  There'd probably be a lot of lesser Sith banding together under one really powerful ruler.

The Movies' Sith were all individually trained by Palpatine.  Since there were so few Sith in the Galaxy, every one of them had to be able to defeat almost any Jedi they came across.  As a result of this training, they were equipped with the skills necessary to face their master, hence the plotting.  In a scenario where there are thousands of Sith, I'd bet Masters would be much more paranoid with their teachings, training a lot of the weaker ones enough only to be effective tools, not potential usurpers.

At this point, it's all all extrapolation, though.

The Sith were probably unstable by nature, hence there would be the chaos.  An order dedicated to cultivating hate, fear, anger, and passion doesn't exactly make a stable group or subculture.

Also, I don't think it was necessarily that the Sith were more powerful as a group.  After all, the Jedi had begun to wane prior to Episode I, and the Jedi did overthrow the Sith at least once in the past.  It's probably more accurate to think of the whole Jedi/Sith thing as a pendulum that kept swinging back and forth.  That's the point of view Zahn presents in his books.
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Reply #885 on: May 27, 2005, 12:11:25 AM

 I was severely disappointed with the portrayal of Palp in the third one. Up till then he had been spectacular manipulator and evil genius.

 He had a droid army. He had a clone army. He provided a threat so that the senate would ok the use of said clone army. Now it doesn't matter if the clones lose or the robots do. Hes got a huge fucking army at his disposal. And if the clones do lose, hes behind the robot army to wipe out all the people he doesn't like anyway. Smurfin smart.

 He also never lets anyone get too close to his power level. (No fucking DBZ references, I'll kill ya.) He uses them just enough to get what he wants, then go away they do.

Until he turns into a whiny manic depressive power hungry bull dyke in the third. Thanks Lucas. You suck again.

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Llava
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Reply #886 on: May 27, 2005, 12:22:38 AM

There'd probably be a lot of lesser Sith banding together under one really powerful ruler.


Well, when the elders get too greedy and start using the neonates as cannon fodder, manipulating them, using them, and discarding them, never letting them really gain power, you've got a recipe for an Anarch Revolt on your hands and the first inklings of the Sabbat on the way.  And let's face is- the Sabbat is just as good at fighting itself as it is anyone else.

Vampire: The Masquerade?  Anyone?  No?

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Polysorbate80
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Reply #887 on: May 27, 2005, 08:32:02 AM

And as everyone else noted, Natalie Portman really phoned her lines in on this one. In the first 2, she was really a proto-Leia, albeit with odd tastes in men. Very aggressive, very much wanting to be the action hero. Here's she's incredibly passive, spending almost the entire movie pining in her apartment for Anakin to pay attention to her and maybe buy her some chocolates or something.

I had no real problem with her clingy behavior.  You're not a dad, are you?  Women temporarily develop a whole new personality when they're pregnant, and then again after they give birth.  They really can't help it, what with the hormones and lack of sleep and stuff.

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blackotter
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Reply #888 on: May 27, 2005, 08:54:25 AM

And as everyone else noted, Natalie Portman really phoned her lines in on this one. In the first 2, she was really a proto-Leia, albeit with odd tastes in men. Very aggressive, very much wanting to be the action hero. Here's she's incredibly passive, spending almost the entire movie pining in her apartment for Anakin to pay attention to her and maybe buy her some chocolates or something.

I had no real problem with her clingy behavior.  You're not a dad, are you?  Women temporarily develop a whole new personality when they're pregnant, and then again after they give birth.  They really can't help it, what with the hormones and lack of sleep and stuff.

According to Dr. Tom Cruise, you can take vitamins to fix that. 
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Reply #889 on: May 27, 2005, 09:27:20 AM

I'd like to take a moment to point out that this will probably be the summer's best movie.

Though, I'm jonesing the Broken Lizard version of Dukes of Hazzard and of course Cronenberg's History of Violence.

Edit: Also, Lucasarts is making theaters keep Star Wars for 13 weeks if they want it for one. That's 25% of the year (as in, the WHOLE SUMMER). He truly is The Devil.
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Reply #890 on: May 27, 2005, 09:55:02 AM

I'd like to take a moment to point out that this will probably be the summer's best movie.

I always did like Logan's Run.

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Reply #891 on: May 27, 2005, 10:33:25 AM

I'd like to take a moment to point out that this will probably be the summer's best movie.

I always did like Logan's Run.

Yea, when I saw the trailer recently, all the way through I assumed it was Singer's remake of Logan's Run. Then it reaches the end and I find out its some movie I never heard of. Still, looks like good summer blockbuster fun flick.

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Reply #892 on: May 27, 2005, 10:52:42 AM

I hope we get so see Scarlett's robot boobies.

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Reply #893 on: May 28, 2005, 01:24:13 AM

It's my job to freeze you.

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Reply #894 on: May 28, 2005, 10:12:19 AM

I got to see the movie yesterday.  Sufficient performance by Hayden, although I didn't buy into the love angle as the cause of his fall.  Ewen M was f'ing great as Kenobi, and Ian M turns into a scary bastard.  While the plot made sense and overall acting and script was decent enough, the movie still didn't move me at all emotionally.  I think it was Frankenvader who robbed me of that opportunity.

This movie is PG-13 for a good reason.  A little kid was bawling throughout the movie, usually triggered by one of the scary scenes.  Made me glad of what happened to the Jedi younglings.  No more red-headed stepchild for me.  I'm gonna be beating people down like a Jedi youngling!

Can anyone nerdy enough and not caring about spoilers explain why having the "high ground" was the "checkmate" move?
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Reply #895 on: May 28, 2005, 10:33:46 AM

I got to see the movie yesterday.  Sufficient performance by Hayden, although I didn't buy into the love angle as the cause of his fall.  Ewen M was f'ing great as Kenobi, and Ian M turns into a scary bastard.  While the plot made sense and overall acting and script was decent enough, the movie still didn't move me at all emotionally.  I think it was Frankenvader who robbed me of that opportunity.

This movie is PG-13 for a good reason.  A little kid was bawling throughout the movie, usually triggered by one of the scary scenes.  Made me glad of what happened to the Jedi younglings.  No more red-headed stepchild for me.  I'm gonna be beating people down like a Jedi youngling!

Can anyone nerdy enough and not caring about spoilers explain why having the "high ground" was the "checkmate" move?

I don't think it was a "checkmate" move really, i think Obi was just taunting Anakin into doing something stupid.

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Reply #896 on: May 28, 2005, 10:37:07 AM

Can anyone nerdy enough and not caring about spoilers explain why having the "high ground" was the "checkmate" move?

It means nothing when involving Jedi since they can jump so high. Oh wait, Jedi skills seems to come and go at the behest of the shitty script.
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Reply #897 on: May 28, 2005, 10:45:17 AM

I don't think it was the high ground that did it, really.  As posted above, it was probably Obi-Wan seeing that he could pull something off if Anakin tried something and so he flat out said, "Don't try this, I'll win."  Anakin, being the type that he is, had to try it.

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Reply #898 on: May 28, 2005, 10:55:13 AM

I don't think it was the high ground that did it, really.  As posted above, it was probably Obi-Wan seeing that he could pull something off if Anakin tried something and so he flat out said, "Don't try this, I'll win."  Anakin, being the type that he is, had to try it.

Was there anything in any of the movies that showed something Anakin was able to do with the Force that Obi-Wan couldn't?
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Reply #899 on: May 28, 2005, 11:11:22 AM

It seemed like he was better at seeing the future.  I also suspect he was better with a lightsaber; Obi-Wan was only able to beat Vader in RotS because Obi-Wan kept a level head and found a situational advantage, whereas Vader attacked with all the strategy and finesse of a flaming disembodied head from Hell.
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Reply #900 on: May 28, 2005, 05:43:12 PM

Was there anything in any of the movies that showed something Anakin was able to do with the Force that Obi-Wan couldn't?
Anakin was the "best starfighter in the galaxy" which Qui-Gon attributed to the Force.

Edit: Which was part of his being able to see into the future power that Samwise mentioned above.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2005, 05:56:17 PM by Trippy »
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Reply #901 on: May 28, 2005, 05:54:32 PM

Can anyone nerdy enough and not caring about spoilers explain why having the "high ground" was the "checkmate" move?
It means nothing when involving Jedi since they can jump so high. Oh wait, Jedi skills seems to come and go at the behest of the shitty script.
It's a common problem with stories involving "super-human" powers -- the way powers are used or not used to solve problems often make no sense at all.
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Reply #902 on: May 28, 2005, 07:01:16 PM

  I don't think Kenobi was taunting him at all.. Seems to me he didn't really want to have to kill the little shit. Otherwise, he'd have sliced him into little slices of whine after he took his legs off instead of hoping the lava would finish him.

Either way...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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AOFanboi
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Reply #903 on: May 29, 2005, 03:34:04 AM

It's a common problem with stories involving "super-human" powers -- the way powers are used or not used to solve problems often make no sense at all.
Another example is in B5 - early on, the psionic Talia Winters gets a gift from a rogue telepath, making her one of the most powerful telepaths in the B5 universe, able to withstand psi-cop Bester. But later on, when they apparently wanted to get rid of the actress, they came up with some "trigger phrase released assassin instruction" that the rogue telepath or she herself should have been able to detect and remove. And suddenly she is no longer the powerful telepath, just a Scooby-Doo style villain, almost snarling "I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling Minbari!"

Bah on the writers for that. And for about five episodes for the first four seasons, and the whole of the fifth.

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Reply #904 on: May 29, 2005, 07:58:37 AM

Bah on the writers for that. And for about five episodes for the first four seasons, and the whole of the fifth.

There was no fifth season! It's a myth, like Highlander 2, 3 and "Endgame!" Lalalalala..

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Reply #905 on: May 29, 2005, 01:12:22 PM


It's a common problem with stories involving "super-human" powers -- the way powers are used or not used to solve problems often make no sense at all.


YES.  Consistency and suspension of belief.

I have no problem if you throw in superhuman powers, or exeptional ordinary abilities.  It's not sticking to the rules you asked us to suspend belief for that really kills it.

More than one horror or action flick is ruined by the "instant commando" problem.  You know the drill.  Some schmuck can't do anything right,  than about 20 minutes from the end of the flick they become the fucking terminator.  Movies that establish the mains abilities, than stick to it, seem to be rare.

One of the best power progressions in a sci-fi/actiony movie, I think, is Predator.  In the beginning of the movie, you establish that the commandos are bad asses.  Than you establish the predator is fucking bad ass by taking out the commandos (sometimes barely,  and with some injuries taken by the predator), but giving away his liabilities in the process.  Than Arnold uses that against the Predator.

The Bourne movies do a pretty good job of establishing than sticking to Bourne's abilities.
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Reply #906 on: May 29, 2005, 06:15:47 PM

One of the best power progressions in a sci-fi/actiony movie, I think, is Predator.  In the beginning of the movie, you establish that the commandos are bad asses.  Than you establish the predator is fucking bad ass by taking out the commandos (sometimes barely,  and with some injuries taken by the predator), but giving away his liabilities in the process.  Than Arnold uses that against the Predator.

Totally with you on Predator.  I think that movie is possibly the Perfect Action Movie, the ultimate popcorn-and-bubble-gum guy flick.  High art it is not, but it just did so many things right.  Then came the sequel, which blew chunks.
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Reply #907 on: May 29, 2005, 08:03:49 PM

McTiernan is an interesting director. Seems like he alternates between making an awesome film and total crap.

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AOFanboi
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Reply #908 on: May 30, 2005, 08:00:43 AM

One of the best power progressions in a sci-fi/actiony movie, I think, is Predator.  In the beginning of the movie, you establish that the commandos are bad asses.  Than you establish the predator is fucking bad ass by taking out the commandos (sometimes barely,  and with some injuries taken by the predator), but giving away his liabilities in the process.  Than Arnold uses that against the Predator.
Exactly: Rock, paper, scissors. People don't mind super powers and super weaknesses, it's when the super powers "disappear" because of the script/plot and not because of any established weakness, that the alarm bells go off. Deus ex machina sucks, it screams "sorry but we ran out of money/time/energy!" at the viewer.

Example: Superman. Near invulnerable, very strong, can fly/jump really really high... but has a ton of weaknesses (red suns, kryptonite, magic) and enemies familiar with the weaknesses (Braniac and Lex Luthor used kryptonite, a few used magic). That works.

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Reply #909 on: May 30, 2005, 03:05:53 PM

I'm sorry, this is my personality.  I have to correct you.  Don't take it personally.

It's suspension of disbelief.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
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