Episode 3

[WindupAtheist]

But he doesn't wipe R2-D2's memory, and R2-D2 doesn't mention any of these facts to C-3PO, Luke, or anyone else.  Oh, he claims Obi-Wan used to be his Master, but Obi-Wan doesn't remember it, and in any case it was just an excuse for delivering Princess Leia's message.

Bruce

That's the funny part.  R2 just ambled through all of this, totally aware of everything, and just keeping his "mouth" shut.   :-D

[Abagadro]

Robot Chicken encapsulated this thread in 45 seconds.

And did a better job of skewering Lucas.

[Arnold]

Darth Vader reveals himself as George Dubya Bush in Episode III:
"If you are not with me, you are against me." - Anakin

[Merusk]

Robot Chicken encapsulated this thread in 45 seconds.

And did a better job of skewering Lucas.

Damnit.. now I'm even more pissed I fell asleep on the couch last night. 

There I was, listening to Family Guy while playing FF1 on my GBA, then the next thing I knew it was midnight and the second episode of Family Guy was on.   Anyone have some decent torrent sites for TV that don't require registration/ fees?

[schild]

There I was, listening to Family Guy while playing FF1 on my GBA, then the next thing I knew it was midnight and the second episode of Family Guy was on.   Anyone have some decent torrent sites for TV that don't require registration/ fees?

I'd yell at you like I did Arnold, but Robot Chicken isn't exactly out on video yet. So uhm, someone PM him the answer.

[HaemishM]

Robot Chicken encapsulated this thread in 45 seconds.

And did a better job of skewering Lucas.

Yes, that was just pure comedy gold.

Hint, torrentspy.com.

[Shockeye]

If you don't mind being spoiled, here's 12 pages of Episode 3 pictures.

[Litigator]

Here's the thing about Star Wars: the Jedis were never cool. Han Solo is cool. That's why Han got the girl and Luke got his hand cut off.  If you saw Star Wars and wanted to be a jedi, you are a fucking loser. 

The whole new trilogy sucks by definition because there is no Han.  Fictional galactic politics is stupid, especially since Lucas's conclusion is that society is best left in the hands of a bunch of religious fanatics who wave around huge glowing phallic symbols.  Harrison Ford cruising around in a space hot-rod with a giant gerbil sidekick shooting stuff and shagging babes with weird hairstyles is cool.  Without him, Star Wars takes itself too seriously.

You can't even blame George Lucas.  He had a pretty good idea of the thing to start out with, and it's been ruined because it's now taken too seriously.  I blame the fans for this. The problem was that a lot of dorks decided they wanted to be jedis, and started pretending that they were.  They created a huge demand for more star wars stuff, and, of course, it all had to be internally consistent because their fantasy lives inhabited the star wars universe, and anything that jeopardized their suspension of disbelief might cause somebody to have an asthma attack. 

Star Wars was great when it was about a midget in a trash can, a giant in a monkey suit, and Harrison Ford being cool and spouting off cool one-liners. The trilogy, including Jedi, are some of the best entertainment ever laid on film.  Now that it's dork-porn for people who hate their lives, nobody can enjoy it anymore. The fan community is the reason the new trilogy sucks, and is probably also responsible for George Lucas's chin receding into his neck. 

My big beef with Lucas is that he is altering the original films to be more consistent with the wretched masturbatory nerd fantasy that the Star Wars franchise has evolved into.  He's been seduced by the Dork Side.  And he gave the nerds exactly what they wanted in the new trilogy, but they can't realize it because nothing would satisfy them. They've merely adopted the observation by film lovers, who are kind of geeky, but not nearly as pathetic, that the new trilogy are poor movies. 

[Samprimary]

Jedi had the chance to be cool in this series, but I can see Lucas having missed the chance for the mythoi to have become dynamic or even intriguing. In its place we have an uninteresting background organization and overplaying of lightsaber-fu.

[Murgos]

Here's the thing about Star Wars: the Jedis were never cool...

<snipped stuff>

Or alternatively, Jar-Jar is the worst character put to film in decades, there have been some very poor choices made in characterization and the script in general could have withstood a couple of rewrites.

Sometimes the truth is just that simple.

[Riggswolfe]

Feel better Litigator? Now, way to miss it all. The politics did change the tone of the prequels, but he did sort of have to explain how Sidious manipulated his way to being emperor.

Personally my only fault with the movies is the time span they cover. My perfect prequel trilogy would have had Anakin at Luke's age or a little older.

Episode 1 would have been what is currently Episode 2 with maybe a 15 minute flashback showing young Anakin.
Episode 2 would have covered what we only have in cartoons currently. The Clone Wars.
Episode 3 would be..well...Episode 3. Heh.

[Abagadro]

Wow Litigator, you captured my feelings better than anyone I have ever read, including myself. Bravo.

[Hanzii]

Stuff

Brilliant.
Just my feelings... expressed better than I could - I'll steal it.

[SirBruce]

It was nicely written, even though 99% of it was utterly and completely wrong.

Bruce

[HaemishM]

You can't even blame George Lucas.  He had a pretty good idea of the thing to start out with, and it's been ruined because it's now taken too seriously.  I blame the fans for this.

You really shouldn't. Lucas has always maintained that the Jedi was the most important parts of the film. They are the central characters, for Pete's sake. They are the movers and the shakers, and they control the mystical force of all life in the universe. Sure, Han Solo WAS cooler, but I think that was more because Ford did such a good job, not because it was written to be that way.

[Bunk]

I think Litigator is on the right track though. Han wasn't the principal character in the original trilogy, but he was the cool factor. Sure the movies were really about Luke, but Luke was a goody-goody pussy. Who really wanted to be that? Han was the Fonzie to Luke's Ritchie (ok, maybe bad example, since Fonzie eventually took over the show, but the point stands).

The original series had those secondary characters that fans could apreciate while the plot continued to revolve around Luke and Vader. The new series.. well... If there is one good thing I'll say about ep1 is they at least tried to make Obi-wan a little cool - though ultimately failed because they had to keep him within the guidlines of Jedi morals and such. The secondary characters in ep.1 and 2 were where they dropped the ball. 3PO degenerated in to Jerry Lewis level comedy bits, Padme is hamstrung by shit dialog, R2 flys around on jet packs and well - not much else, Fett gets pussified by his pathetic death, and, well, I won't even mention the other sidekick. The only cool character in ep. 1 was Maul. Epsidoe 2? Does two minutes of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Yoda count?

I think Lucas wanted us to consider Anakin the cool character in ep. 2, but he ruined that by making him in to a sniveling whiner that doesn't like sand.

Alas, I'm still a fanboy. Still hoping that Anakin gains at least some degree of cool in being a badass, or maybe Sam Jackson steps up, who knows. I'll be there on opening night, even if its partly just to see more sexy blue Twi'lek Jedi get six seconds of screen time.

[schild]

I'll take Indiana Jones over Han any day. And it's partly the reason I think Star Wars sucks. Indiana Jones is just that much better.

[Jayce]

I think a big part of the original three's appeal were their grittiness.  Remember, this was back when science fiction movies were still such a novelty that everything was SUPER this and AMAZING that.

Lucas took a chance and said, look - here are these poor farmers on a backwater planet where the closest city is a complete dive.  They hook up with this old has-been hermit and go on to save the galaxy in beat-up starfighters.

The new ones, to me, retain none of that gritty realism, in favor of more of the same old AMAZING aliens and ASTOUNDING pod races and STUPENDOUS cities on Coruscant where the closest thing to crime that we see (leaving aside political intrigue) is someone (Kenobi?) using the Jedi mind trick to make a street urchin stop smoking.

[HaemishM]

See, I thought CP3O had degenerated into Jerry Lewis comedy bits even in Empire, but at least that had the rest of the movie to make up for it. I've ALWAYS hated those fucking droids, nothing but shitty humor and site gags from the lot of them. I like JAR-JAR better than any of the droids, other than IG-88.

I believe Lucas actually added Han Solo in there to show that even a scoundrel could be a hero, else why make Han shoot Greedo first, but then turn away from selfishness to help the Rebellion at the end? It was only when Lucas got full control that the series really degenerated into total shit. Lucas made the Jedi the important parts, not the fans, because the Jedi, through Obi-Won/Yoda vs. Vader/Emperor in the first movies and the Jedi Council vs. the Sith in the prequels have always been the primary movers of everything. Everyone else in the movies have been pawns of these two factions.

[WayAbvPar]

I like JAR-JAR better than any of the droids, other than IG-88

Really? Sure 3PO and R2 were silly at times, but Jar Jar was like a burning case of the aggravated gleets (for those of you who watch Deadwood). No comparison, in my book.

[Merusk]

, but Luke was a goody-goody pussy. Who really wanted to be that?

Me, for one.  Of course I also didn't drink until I was 21, have never done druigs and aren't 'cool' like the rest of you, so what the fuck do I know, eh.

[Bunk]

Rewatch ep.2, the end fight in the arena.

Heroes are surrounded, all hope is lost. The Jedi arrive. The battle rages. A Jedi falls to the Bounty Hunter's blaster. A droid's head on the wrong robot cracks an unwitty one-liner. A climatic fight between bounty hunter and Jedi. The villain makes his escape. The heroes in pursuit.

Hmm, what part didn't fit? Not only did it not fit, it obliterated any sense of drama in the entire sequence. At least JarJar's antics in the gungan/droid fight in ep. 1 was part of an entire sequence that wasn't taken all that seriously. As soon as you saw the Gungan army with their giant slingshots and superballs, you new that that battle was tongue in cheek.

Watching episode one and two for me - its like Lucas shot the movie, then screened it for a room of 4 year olds and shoehorned in a bunch of cutesy stuff for them. Hell, even the attrocity of the Ewoks in Jedi worked in that the cute scenes were seperated from the sad and dramatic scenes. In 1 and 2, Lucas just lumped it all together - drama and tension be damned.

[Bunk]

, but Luke was a goody-goody pussy. Who really wanted to be that?

Me, for one.  Of course I also didn't drink until I was 21, have never done druigs and aren't 'cool' like the rest of you, so what the fuck do I know, eh.

Pussy.

[eldaec]

Obi-Won/Yoda vs. Vader/Emperor in the first movies and the Jedi Council vs. the Sith in the prequels have always been the primary movers of everything. Everyone else in the movies have been pawns of these two factions.

Not in RotJ, in fact, pop quiz, if Luke had died immeaditely after part 4 in a freak womp rat accident, how, exactly, would the good guys be any worse off?

Vader would not have felt the need to capture/torture Han and Leia in Empire, nobody would have gotten caught by Jabba the Hutt, and the death star II would have been blown into exactly as many pieces by people who are not jedi in RotJ.

One of the most annoying things about RotJ imo was that the entire Luke storyline, which while jolly interesting from the point of view of saving Anakin, had no impact whatsoever on the battle going on around the DS2.

[Riggswolfe]

Well, in the novelization and other literature, it has been said that the Emporer was using the force to make his people fight better, and when he died the fight suddenly turned for the good guys. Of course, that's not on screen so it doesn't help.

However, you could easily conclude,. that had Luke not been there:

1) Vader would not have killed the Emperor
2) They both would have gotten on a shuttle and escaped

[Samwise]

Jabba had a contract out on Han that had nothing to do with Luke, and Han and Leia were still both integral members of the Rebellion, so odds are good that Han's ass would have ended up in carbonite regardless.  It's also possible that if Vader and the emperor hadn't been occupied trying to corrupt Luke, things would have gone differently on Endor.

[Fraeg]

Venetian Akido  >>>>>>>>> the force or those oversized glow sticks


-nat

[Litigator]

I'll take Indiana Jones over Han any day. And it's partly the reason I think Star Wars sucks. Indiana Jones is just that much better.

I think I've said this to you before. The best moment in the Star Wars films, and one of my all-time favorite movie moments is at the end of Empire, when Han is about to go into the carbonite, and Leia says "I love you," and Han says "I know."  It's a moment of sheer perfection that shines all the brighter for occurring incongruously in a series of films with dialog so bad that the line "I have a bad feeling about this" has become a motif.

There are very few movie scenes that are this cool.  Indiana Jones shooting the sword guy in "Raiders" is probably one of them. When Sean Connery's Bond slapped the girl on the ass and told her to run along because it was time for "man talk," that was one of them. Bill Murray in Ghostbusters, charging up the proton pack, and saying "let's show this prehistoric bitch how we do things downtown," was pretty clutch. Michael killing Solozzo and McClusky in "Godfather."  Sonny's death scene, also in "Godfather." The hits on the heads of the five families, "Godfather" again.  Al Pacino with the machine gun at the end of "Scarface." Humphrey Bogart in the Maltese Falcon, when he says "I hope they don't hang you, Precious, by that sweet neck." That great deep-focus shot in "Citizen Kane," where Orson Welles talks about using up all his money.  The shootout at the end of "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly."

And that's about it... what was the point? Oh yeah. Don't bag on Han. James Bond only managed to be cooler than him, like, once.   

[schild]

And that's about it... what was the point? Oh yeah. Don't bag on Han. James Bond only managed to be cooler than him, like, once.

You're right. Instead of watching all of any of the Star Wars again, I can just cut that clip out in premiere and watch that. And don't you mean Han Solo only managed to be better than Bond like once - assuming we're talking about Sean Connery as Bond. What you just did was put into words why I like people distilling a movie into a scene or two.

The point I was making with Indiana Jones is that the rest of the movie surrounding the character didn't totally suck. Everything without Han was pretty much soap opera material (particularly all of episodes 1, 2 and most likely 3). Bitching, moaning, and personal vendetta abound. If I wanted to watch that, I'd stay in on Saturday afternoons and watch shows where the director doesn't re-cut them and make me pay to see them again. In a newer, cleaned up, more fucked up version.

[eldaec]

However, you could easily conclude,. that had Luke not been there:

1) Vader would not have killed the Emperor
2) They both would have gotten on a shuttle and escaped

I tell myself this everytime I watch it.

However, I am very aware that I am kidding myself.

When novelisation authors spot huge plot gaps and try to plug them themselves, that is never a good sign.

If Lucas had the good sense to put the Luke/Emperor/Vader thing in a location other than the death star, I might have been able to buy that something with a point to it was being achieved.

[Bunk]

And that's about it... what was the point? Oh yeah. Don't bag on Han. James Bond only managed to be cooler than him, like, once.

You're right. Instead of watching all of any of the Star Wars again, I can just cut that clip out in premiere and watch that. And don't you mean Han Solo only managed to be better than Bond like once - assuming we're talking about Sean Connery as Bond. What you just did was put into words why I like people distilling a movie into a scene or two.

The point I was making with Indiana Jones is that the rest of the movie surrounding the character didn't totally suck. Everything without Han was pretty much soap opera material (particularly all of episodes 1, 2 and most likely 3). Bitching, moaning, and personal vendetta abound. If I wanted to watch that, I'd stay in on Saturday afternoons and watch shows where the director doesn't re-cut them and make me pay to see them again. In a newer, cleaned up, more fucked up version.

Hey, lets remember too, that Han managed to be cool even in the first movie, despite having Lucas writing his dialog.  As for Indy - yea Indy was cool for the most part, the sword fight scene especially - but really, he was a bookworm that liked to get his hands dirty. He just never really clicked for me. When I watch Indy its like every scene is Indy gets in trouble, Indy rolls his eyes, Indy cracks a joke and then narrowly escapes. With the exception of Lucas digitally messing up the space-time continuem, and some dumd "cute" moments in Jedi - Han is a badass.

If you want to talk about the movies as a whole - people may slag parts of Jedi, but its still infintessimally (sp?) better than the travesty of Temple of Doom!!!11!1!

Honestly, I rate Indy not only below Han on coolness level, but I rate both of them below Decker.

[AOFanboi]

I think a big part of the original three's appeal were their grittiness.  Remember, this was back when science fiction movies were still such a novelty that everything was SUPER this and AMAZING that.

Hardly: 1970s sci-fi was far grittier than Lucas' samurai-in-space project. I am thinking Westworld, I am thinking Soylent Green, and to an extent Logan's Run despite the happy ending. A Clockwork Orange. Go further back and Planet of the Apes rears its head. Hell, even that Shakespeare adaption - Forbidden Planet - can be considered grittier than Star Wars.

The main appeal of SW was because it came out in a year when no other studios were into sci-fi so it reigned mostly alone. And because Lucas is a far better salesman and merchandiser than a director.

[Riggswolfe]

I keep thinking of the irony about all this Han and Indy talk.

Legend has it that Harrison Ford adlibbed alot of Han's cooler dialogue, especially in the first movie.

As for Indiana Jones, Harrison Ford was very, very sick during the scene where that swordsman came out. They were supposed to have this big cool fight scene but Harrison wasn't up to it, so he pulled his gun and shot him. The stuntman playing the swordfighter went with it and so one of the cooler moments in Raiders was born.

Maybe it's Harrison who is cool, not Han and Indy. Lol.

[Rasix]

Maybe it's Harrison who is cool, not Han and Indy. Lol.

He should be; I named my cat after him. 

[Shockeye]

I have a feeling a lot of people will sign up for this.