A Unique Position: Honor Feedback

[Morfiend]

Right now I am in a very unique position. As some of you know, I have a few friends at Blizzard, and the Dev Team is asking them for feedback on the honor system. If a few of you would like to write up some thing not to long, and very concise, and maybe combine all your gripes and concerns into one nice post, I will have it passed along to some one, who can get it read by the dev team.

It has to probably be done by tonight or so.

[Sky]

It caters to the hardcore. It's another gap between the hardcore and casuals. It's another system that precludes casual enjoyment.

Not only the relative nature of ranks, meaning the harder the top end catasses, the harder I have to catass in order to gain ranks; it's also the maintenance nature of the system, meaning to use the gear I grind to get, I have to continue grinding every week, or lose my shineys.

Stop rewarding the lunatic fringe achievers.

[Paelos]

1) There shouldn't be the ability for non-PvP enabled to rush up and attack /pvp people without declaring themselves first. It just gives them the upper hand in every battle. I'd like to see a 5 second delay between enabling and being able to attack someone.

2) Civilians should not aggro ever. Even if they are caught in a blast or something. You are pretty much forced to kill them at that point even if you don't want to.

3) All fp masters should be lvl 60 elites.

4) There should be a system of pvp duels that count for honor where nobody outside can affect the outcome, ie no heals or attacks. You can challenge another undeclared person to a 1v1 faction duel for honor.

5) A high lvl arena like Grubashi near SS and Tarren Mill. Restrict it to 50+ lvls. Horde enter one side, Alliance the other. Everybody is non-pvp until a battle starts on a timer, say, 15 minutes. This timer is not displayed. Once the timer ends, everyone becomes pvp at once, and the arena doors shut. The fight lasts until one faction is left standing, and then the timer starts again, and everybody is back to non-pvp.

[Jayce]

Stop rewarding the lunatic fringe achievers.

One idea to benefit the non-hardcore might be to add bonus contribution points in the same manner as the rested XP bonus.

Though really, implementing Battlegrounds now and either eliminating or reducing the honor reward outside of them would the best first step.  Refine the methods of gaining honor later.

[HaemishM]

Not taking away honor for ganky type kills is bad, mmmkay? Also, what is honor without dishonor?

[Rasix]

1)  Once there is a system in place for civilians not to aggro, there needs to be harsh punishment for killing them.  Right now, it's too easy to effectively grief another side's lowbies by taking over a town and keeping it a barren wasteland.  Lowbies can't really retaliate and they're stuck in the middle of a conflict they aren't participating in.  It's just tremendously annoying when you can't turn in quests.

2)  Putting this in without battlegrounds was an epic mistake.  Again, I'll go back to the example of lowbies.  Why should their zones get lagged to hell and their quest NPCs slaughtered just because there's no viable alternative for those people looking to farm honor kills?  The current system is negatively impacting the playability of the game for people that aren't even participating in it.

3)  There needs to be a way to lock in rank for a while in order to keep your rewards and still use them.  Getting up to the very top, getting a cool sword or mount and then having an off week or going on vacation and then not being able to use that equipment would be horrible.  Say for every week you earn enough points for that rank, you have a free week at that rank if you fail to earn in the subsequent week.   There should also be plenty of permanent or temporary items available that aren't restricted to rank.  I don't think rank restricted items that become unavailable once you drop lower is a terribly good idea but I can see the reasoning behind it and wouldn't be overly dismayed to see it in the system.

3a) Other idea for item retention might be having each item have a one month life to it but no rank restriction once it's purchased at the proper rank.

4) Perhaps instead of a week by week system, there should also be a cumulative secondary system in for the more casual.  Maybe a system tied into abilities or hero classes instead of gear.  Yes, this sounds like I'm advocating realm ranks from Dark Age (well, I am kinda) but there should be a system in place that helps the more casual pvper or the one that's heavily involved in a pve raid guid to have some lasting success. 

5) Like Paelos said, flight masters should probably be higher level.  I wouldn't mind them being unkillable either on PVE servers.


Edit: spelling. 

[Special J]

1) There shouldn't be the ability for non-PvP enabled to rush up and attack /pvp people without declaring themselves first. It just gives them the upper hand in every battle. I'd like to see a 5 second delay between enabling and being able to attack someone.

Add to that you should also flag as soon you come within a certain range of a town.  Right now with stealth you can enter a town with complete imputiny.

[Fargull]

I completely agree with everything Rasix posted.  Covering the exact points I wanted to cover.

[El Gallo]

The reasons everyone fights in Hillsbrad:
-easy to get to
-alliance and horde towns -- but most especially graveyards -- not very far apart
-no troublesome geography or mobs that matter to level 50+ characters between those graveyards

Make those 3 conditions true in a few other zones as well, and you won't have the lagtastic shitfest that is Hillsbrad all night, every night.  A lot of what makes things suck is the overload.  If you have 30-on-20 fights in 3 different places, it is much less disruptive than having a 90-on-60 fight in one place.

For example: Arathi would be a better place to fight if the Horde has a graveyard right outside Hammerfall, like the Alliance do in Refuge Point.

[sidereal]

Not as a response, but as a suggestion to those giving suggestions from someone who deals with them regularly, it's better just to delineate the problems clearly then to try to dictate the solutions to Blizzard.  If you come up with 'X is a problem', it's probably easy for Blizzard to agree, and they can brainstorm about how to fix it.  If you come up with 'You should X', 98% of the time the response will be 'No we shouldn't'.

[AcidCat]

WoW is a casual friendly game and one of the main reasons people play is the ability to solo, and with that the ability to make progress on your character in rather small play sessions of 1 - 2 hours.

The Honor system is contrary to this spirit of the game in that it rewards the hardcore players who have already reached 60. Now it is going to be much harder for everyone else to get there. It is going to be much harder to solo quest, you'll find your time constantly wasted by higher level players farming honor, farming you. It rewards players for ruining the fun of those beneath them on the totem pole - sure you will get more honor from an equal opponent, but players will naturally take the path of least resistance by farming players 5-12 levels beneath them, whom they can kill at a faster pace with much less risk to themselves. Taking advantage of other players by jumping them mid-mob or in groups is now rewarded, and thus is happening at an epidemic rate, producing frustration in anyone under level 60. Questing on a PvP server has always been a bit more challenging, but there was an element of unpredictability to your encounters with the opposite faction where you didn't know if someone would wave or fart on you and laugh - now every encounter is reduced to a fight or flight.

I understand that Blizzard thinks Battlegrounds will minimize this effect, that the frenzy will die down .... I hope so but I'm not convinced yet.

[Rasix]

Good point, sid.  I guess my issues boil down to (in no particular order):

1)  Civiling killing is negatively impacting lower level players from finishing quests and carrying out other pve related activities.

2)  Large masses of people fighting in lower level areas is negatively impacting people not participating through generation of extra lag (both video and network).

3)  The killing of flight masters negatively impacts players not participating in the conflict and is tantamount to griefing.

4)  PVP reward items not being usuable once a rank is lost, compounded by how rank is determined, may be overly harsh in regards to fluctuations in rank and lapse in player participation.   This may be extremely unforgiving and punitive in the higher ranks. 

5)  Honor system caters to the hard core.  More casual participation does not outwardly appear to result in any real progress toward greater rewards.   

6)  The honor system does not have any sort of cumulative reward that is not based off other's performance in the system.

Some adjustments were made based on some misperceptions by myself.   It does help to re-read the system doc every once in a while.

[Lantien]

Just saw Sidereal's suggestion. Thank him, he just cut down my reply by 60%+.

a. Having optimal fighting locations also be where lowbies fight and can't realistically defend themselves is not good.

b. Having civilians attack aggressors, while expecting a real dishonor penalty to kick in is not good.

c. Civilians that don't run away from danger, is not good in the context of a dishonor penalty.

d. Especially for ranks that you're calling non-commissioned officers, setting them up to be painful to scale for people who only want to PVP a few times a week is not good , especially if you want people to experience your vaunted battlegrounds, and yet feel like they got something out of it.

e. The goal of total elimination of town raids is unrealistic. It happened before the honor system, and in its best form, it can spur on spontaeneous, fun PvP competition where you can feel to some degree like you're "defending your land". At the same time, especially on a PVP server, feeling like you're 1940s Britian is not good either.

PS: What is what people are thinking when they say "Dishonor penalty"?  I've been thinking about it casually while I've been reading this thread.  I don't think merely saying "cut in honor points, bad boy" is going to do jack. If getting and staying on the ladder is as hard as people are claiming, won't that give incentive for those that have nothing to lose (that is, casual players, and players who are mired in the lower tiers) to hit up towns, knowing that they're going to have an easy path with little to no lasting penalty that will hurt them in the long run?

[schild]

Why don't you just send the Blizzard dev to read all the shit we have on the honor system and the rest of the game. We have what? Over 5,000 posts about it? And a seperate 2 page thread on it?

Well either way, Sky had it right at the beginning:

Spreading the gap between the hardcore and the casual is dumb as shit. Period.

[El Gallo]

Forgot: give the Horde a mangina race, it's the only way to get anything close to numeric balance.

[Strazos]

I would play on Horde if I could play as a Ninja Turtle. That's about the only thing I can see that would fix the problem.

[schild]

I would play on Horde if I could play as a Ninja Turtle. That's about the only thing I can see that would fix the problem.

I want to be Donatello. He was the coolest.

[tazelbain]

The futility of this thread makes me laugh.

[HRose]

The solution can be summarized in one line:

- Reward from goals and not for the single kills.

(conquer towers, graveyards and other PvP-centered spots. Build matchmaking PvP missions like escort of caravans and so on)

[Strazos]

Better Solution:

Play Guild Wars.

[schild]

Better Solution:

Play Guild Wars.

Best Solution:

Run the fuck away from any MMORPG based on levels.

[Strazos]

Better Solution:

Play Guild Wars.

Best Solution:

Run the fuck away from any MMORPG based on levels.

Final Solution:

Give me an MMO to run to that doesn't use "levels." Then, TEH WINNAR IS U!!1!

Until then, competitive and balenced ganking it is for me.

[Signe]

The futility fruitility of this thread makes me laugh.

There.  Fixed.

[MrHat]

Schild, why are you even posting in this thread?

I rather enjoy the Honor system.  I feel like we can't complain about the thing until we see it in action for another month.

Apparently, the biggest problem with it is all the lag and interference it causes for the casual players that just want to quest in Hillsbrad.  On a pvp server, this isn't a problem at all.  Players will find another place to go level, grit their teeth and fight through it, or join the combat (lots of stuff a lowbie can do if they stay with the mob).  The PvE problem I agree has to be fixed though -- flagging problems, lowbie npc's being killed, and all that fun stuff that's already been mentioned.

Edit: Morph, have they fixed the problem with BG's being too laggy at 60 people yet?

[Calantus]

- I do not like how my rank is appended to my name. I'd prefer my char to be known simply as "Berra", not "Sergeant Berra".



Also guys, everyone I know kills far less grays than before, including myself. I used to have a KOS policy, now I just cbf'd killing grays because they give no honor.

[Samprimary]

The honor system sucks and is not fun for the Horde. Trim the following submission as you see fit:

On my server right now we've had whole herds of Alliance at the base of Thunder Bluff trying to milk killls, and this is because the Horde stopped bothering to show up at Tarren Mill.

Plus, Crossroads is being combed by rogues 24/7, who hunt slavishly for honor. They have the luxury of being able to sneak in and gank who they want, because they don't care about dying; they only care about scoring kills.

Plus, the tower north of Crossroads has become permanently inhabited by teams of casters and hunters and stuff, who attempt to be belligerent enough to provoke people to attack them.

Plus, the hill by the Zep tower in Orgrimmar is being roosted by people who kill any flagged that go by.

Plus, groups routinely charge into and take over Splintertree Post and only leave when the Horde stops fighting back, then they move to Crossroads to sit in the middle of town and provoke counterattack.

It has gotten worse now that ranks are out. I have shut off WorldDefense as it needlessly scrolls text. It has exascerbated the disadvantage of playing a faction that is numerically outnumbered by orders of magnitude, and the problem exascerbates itself, as when the Horde becomes less fun to play as a result of it, more people leave the Horde. I'll say that again: The Honor system is a real bummer for the disadvantaged faction. Don't pretend that it isn't.

You've made a mistake, and you need to be more admissive of this fact. You have done something which has had negative reception, and has lost you players and reduced interest and appeal in the game for many people. The only reasonable solution to the present problems that I can see working is to make Honor a battlegrounds only thing, but I don't believe that Blizzard presently wants to have to make this sort of 'retreat'. Maybe it's a higher management thing. But on the forums, we have the Honor system developer outright lying to us and insultingly downplaying the seriousness of the faction imbalance, etc.

Today, I watched people fruitlessly fighting hordes of Alliance at the base of TB, people were shouting to 'Deflag and stop fighting them or they'll never go away'. I sat in Splintertree and watched indefatiguable zergs of alliance constantly wipe out the city only to leave the second we stopped struggling. I sat in Crossroads and watched a duo of rogues purposefully die so that they could spawn-gank the people who would guard their corpses, the two groups communally farming honor points from each other in a retarded dance of game mechanic exploitation. The serverwide channels are full of people talking about how the concept of any sort of faction spirit is ridiculous. People I know on my server have been quitting now that PvP has become an experiment in frustration and exploitation, or, they are switching to Alliance alts.

Three of my friends were in the low 50's on PvP servers, and the honor system turned them into dogmeat. After being unable to run quests or solo for five days, they quit. More quit even on PvE servers just because they think the honor system sucks and the game lost its jay nay seis something because of it. One of my friends is an Alliance rogue on a PvP server and thinks it is (surprise!) a total hoot. Favored tactic is ganking people right off the rider in Gadgetzan. A couple others were on a RP server and actually loved the RP server dynamic between the Alliance and the Horde and how things were actually fitting the not-quite-warfare thing - with intermittant periods of clashing and respect - now turned into masses of alliance who are attempting to be as provocative and annoying as possible in order to farm players for Phat Lewt. Case in point: I log in today and damned if there isn't a group of 5 Alliance sitting smack dab in the middle of Crossroads, farting and making rude gestures at everyone, patiently waiting for We Fools to flag.

A conversation next to me starts with some players thinking that we should make a defense group to fight off the humans. Some others sitting there point out the guild names, and state these important facts:

1. If nobody flags, they will go away.
2. If you flag, they will stay here to kill flagged people.
3. The longer you flag, the longer they stay.
4. If you form a big enough defense group and actually start fights, word will travel to the Alliance and more will come here.
5. When more come here, we cannot fight them and they will depart only when they've had their fill.
6. Yesterday and the day before that, the scenario in #4-5 happened and Crossroads was occupied for 4+ hours.
7. Therefore, if you encourage people to flag, we will hate you with the passion of a thousand burning suns.

The honor system sucks and is not fun.  :-(

[schild]

Schild, why are you even posting in this thread?

Because this thread is redundant.

I'm just leaving it here because I caught it a day too late to do anything.

Here's the original thread.

Edit: And don't go thinking I'm ragging on Morphiend. I like his avatar too much to do that. Many of the people in the other thread already wrote drawn out responses with all of their "concerns" about the honor system in it. ^_^

[AcidCat]

- I do not like how my rank is appended to my name. I'd prefer my char to be known simply as "Berra", not "Sergeant Berra".

Same here, though I haven't acheived any rank yet that just makes me want to partake in PvP even less. There needs to be some switch to turn off that title ... I dunno, maybe there already is.

[Paelos]

- I do not like how my rank is appended to my name. I'd prefer my char to be known simply as "Berra", not "Sergeant Berra".

Same here, though I haven't acheived any rank yet that just makes me want to partake in PvP even less. There needs to be some switch to turn off that title ... I dunno, maybe there already is.

I think rank should be coupled with names when /pvp enabled. When i'm hunting mobs, I'm not a rank.

[Morfiend]

Schild, why are you even posting in this thread?

Because this thread is redundant.

I'm just leaving it here because I caught it a day too late to do anything.

Here's the original thread.

Edit: And don't go thinking I'm ragging on Morphiend. I like his avatar too much to do that. Many of the people in the other thread already wrote drawn out responses with all of their "concerns" about the honor system in it. ^_^

The only reasion I posted this thread, is because my friend asked for some well written replys quickly if I wanted the Blizzard devs to read them. I didnt want to go wading through all the other threads, and I wanted to give you guys the chance to get heard by the dev team. Thanks for the short consice lists guys. I have passed along a bunch these.

[Morfiend]

- I do not like how my rank is appended to my name. I'd prefer my char to be known simply as "Berra", not "Sergeant Berra".

Same here, though I haven't acheived any rank yet that just makes me want to partake in PvP even less. There needs to be some switch to turn off that title ... I dunno, maybe there already is.

There is, I think its in interface options.

[sidereal]

Here's some feedback.  Releasing the honor system a week before Guild Wars' release was awesome business planning.  AWESOME!  I pre-ordered.

[Rasix]

Here's some feedback.  Releasing the honor system a week before Guild Wars' release was awesome business planning.  AWESOME!  I pre-ordered.

EB called me last night; my preorder is in.  I don't think I'll be picking it up.. ever. 

WoW's honor system sucking doesn't diminish the "meh" that is my ever declining enthusiam for GW.   The shiny on that one lasted 2 beta weekends.

[sidereal]

See, that was your mistake.  I didn't do any of the Beta Weekends, so the shiny is fresh!

[Righ]

I have passed along a bunch these.

Selective editing? Doesn't matter too much, everything that has been said here has been said here before and said by many many of their customers on their own forums.

Last night the game on Earthen Ring was entirely worthless. The PvP has been a clusterfuck since the patch, but last night the honor farming by the Alliance, who outnumber Horde 3.4:1 on Earthen Ring broke everything. The server ground to a halt, dropped everybody on the Eastern Continent, rolled back, and came up choking. For the rest of the night, instances were unplayable, people got disconnected, locked out, mobs teleported, things froze, and came back with all the timers having expired such that mobs cast half a dozen spells in one instant. There is only one solution that doesn't require a huge development effort and that is to dump this useless 'honor' shit and roll back to 1.3.1.

I enjoyed the consensual PvP on ER before this patch. I can't even enjoy the PvE game any more. If they cannot get battlegrounds to perform with 60 people, how do they expect TM and UC to survive zergs of over 100 people followed by defense teams of similar numbers? They can say they are a victim of their own success as much as they wish, but the fact of the matter is that these honor farming zergs are still a minority of the server population, particularly now that ER has been boosted up to 13th place in the population league by the influx of disenfranchised PvP server players who choose names such as "Taurendruid".

WRT rank display, you can turn off your ability to display rank. Sergeant Barra will then not be bothered by others' ranks, but others will still be able to both see his rank, and inspect his honor tab.