A Unique Position: Honor Feedback

[Sobelius]

1. Ranking system based on number of kills (or xp points or contributions points) needs to take into account varying abilities of each class to obtain those points. Classes with the ability to cause large amounts of damage to multiple opponents (i.e. AOE high dmg abilities) will always dominate classes that have no such abilities and that are limited to damage only 1 opponent at a time. Furthermore, support classes usually have the steepest curve since they can usually only be effective earning these points or kills when grouped, and assuming the high damage dealing groupmates are effective.

2. Allowing players to be attacked/killed while still zoning out of an instance allows for griefing.

3. Having an honor system with no dishonor makes the current environment a free-for-all and makes the word 'honor' meaningless in the current game context. (Perhaps that what Blizzard wanted in the initial rollout, to flush out the exploits and griefing tactics.)

4. As mentioned in other posts, look at the areas where large battles have naturally formed (e.g. hillsbrad) and replicate similar conditions (i.e. graveyard proximity, horde/alliance town placement, mosters ignorable to high level characters, etc.) elsewhere.

5. Get the Battelgrounds in the game.

[Yegolev]

3. Having an honor system with no dishonor makes the current environment a free-for-all and makes the word 'honor' meaningless in the current game context. (Perhaps that what Blizzard wanted in the initial rollout, to flush out the exploits and griefing tactics.)

There would be no reason to do this.  Spend just 30 levels on a PvP server and you will learn an encyclopedia of griefing tactics.  Making level 30 as an undead would be ideal, since you would get to quest through Hillsbrad and then experience Tarren Mill's annoying little brother, Hammerfall.

[Chenghiz]

I joined a PvP server so that I could experience Warcraft... that is, not being perfectly secure that my fate lay entirely in my own hands. I wanted the danger of being ambushed by a rogue or charged by a warrior while I soloed. But with the Honor system, I can't solo with my level 41 Hunter at all. I haven't even played him for a week. I'm thinking of canceling until they figure this madness out - I don't want to have to group for every quest until I hit level 60.

[Sky]

I don't want to have to group for every quest until I hit level 60.

Or you'd be playing EQ2.

[Calantus]

- I do not like how my rank is appended to my name. I'd prefer my char to be known simply as "Berra", not "Sergeant Berra".

Same here, though I haven't acheived any rank yet that just makes me want to partake in PvP even less. There needs to be some switch to turn off that title ... I dunno, maybe there already is.

There is, I think its in interface options.

Yes... and it was turned off the second we got our titles, but I could never see "Sergeant Berra" in the first place as I cannot see my own name. I dislike others seeing me as "Sergeant Berra".

I also have no other concern about the honor system apart from the fact that it doesn't provide me with enough purpose to join the hillsbrad shuffle, and it's hard to find solo kills these days. So... bring on the battlegrounds is all I can say to that.

Also, my 44 druid has no problems leveling... in Feralas/Tenaris no less. This may just be my server however.

[Sky]

Also, my 44 druid has no problems leveling... in Feralas/Tenaris no less. This may just be my server however.

Horde or alliance?

[Jayce]

Also, my 44 druid has no problems leveling... in Feralas/Tenaris no less. This may just be my server however.

Horde or alliance?

Wait until you hit 50.

[Calantus]

Also, my 44 druid has no problems leveling... in Feralas/Tenaris no less. This may just be my server however.

Horde or alliance?

Horde, but my server is arguably the most balanced server in all of WoW.

[Morfiend]

I have passed along a bunch these.

Selective editing?

No.

But they asked for short and well written, so I just tried to condence as much as I could, since no one here wanted to do it.

[Amp]

 All I see is Quake..  It's not fun.  I have taken to avoiding the TM at all costs whereas before this patch it was where I ended my nightlyplay session with some good pvp.  That is not good pvp nor is it even pvp.
It's a mess.  I'm a mage so it's not like I can't go take advantage of my AoE to score HK's but the point is I have no interest in doing so.  As far as i'm concerned that Honor System was put in to shutup the masses of bored lvl 60's and is just a huge load test for Battlegrounds. 
Plus the mage items sorta suck but then all the mage loot sucks.
I enjoy mass killing as much as the next toon but this is just plain silly.
 Alliance on my server think they are playing a single player game.
No I in team.   I would hate to see how the Horde are doing on some of the more unbalanced servers i've been reading about on the forums.  Sounds like some just wanna give up fighting back when it's always 10vs5.

[Sky]

I got fed up with WoW, resubbed to Planetside friday night.

Planetside ran a full-server event all weekend long.

Winnar es my!!!

Planetside pwns, btw. Love the game, even if I'm pretty sucky and there is a completely unecessary and annoying level treadmill. It's got my Thumper of Love, and dernit, that's all I need (maybe a medic, too).

Sounds like some just wanna give up fighting back when it's always 10vs5.

That was pretty much Earthen Ring, only it was more like 40 or 50 coordinated (often the same guild) alliance destroying horde outposts with a few decent level hordies getting slaughtered while halfassedly attempting to mount a resistance.

[Righ]

Sounds like some just wanna give up fighting back when it's always 10vs5.

If you can find me reliable 2:1 odds against me, I'm up for it. Unfortunately, what tends to happen is that a slightly unbalanced fight involving a few Horde and a few more Alliance degenerates into a blue rush of Alliance who come running in a frenzy when they hear some honor points are on the cards. There are only around 800 Horde players on Earthern Ring at prime time, only a small subset of them PvP'd with any regularity, and many of those have given up in disgust now. The 30 or less Horde PvPing on ER on any given evening are now subject to multiple raid groups of Jolt-fuelled lunatics eager to obtain fancy titles and nVidia graphics cards within minutes of engaging in any combat. There are more Human Paladin level 60s than Horde level 60s at any given time.

If you want to PvP, the bulk of WoW servers are the last place you should think of doing it. The game has never really lent itself to diverse and skillful PvP, and in its current incarnation, it is basically worthless. Last night the Horde managed to muster 120 people - three raid groups - to take the fight to the Alliance. Why they chose Ironforge, I don't know. They got to the gates, around 300 Alliance came zerging out, and most everybody froze up for several minutes. Meanwhile, in Blackrock Spire, I froze repeatedly, and was dropped by the server twice.

I'm losing my patience. I've already watched seven level 60 players from the Horde on my server leave in disgust. That's around 5% of the regular Horde 60s if anybody's counting, which Blizzard patently isn't. No faction imbalance, those sites are incorrect. Working as intended. Doesn't mean what you think it does. Read the quest description. Player harrassment is best dealt with using the faction system. Don't post in caps.

[Sky]

There are only around 800 Horde players on Earthern Ring at prime time, only a small subset of them PvP'd with any regularity, and many of those have given up in disgust now.

Hi!

That bit about the IF "raid" sounds about right in my experience. From the imbalance to the bad horde leadership.

I've already watched seven level 60 players from the Horde on my server leave in disgust.

I'm only lvl 58, I don't count! (according to the idiots on the official boards, anyway, heh)

The account is still open, but I haven't even logged in at all in a week. I'll probably end up cancelling if I don't play for another week (and I really have little urge to).

Did I mention Planetside ran events all weekend? And that they rocked? I only got to play around for a while on Friday night, but it was great. They had reset all the ownerships and placed a monolith to fight over (and hold) to gain a tactical advantage for your empire, which then invaded a predetermined enemy continent. I spent a lot of time in the (poorly designed) Core, since they had made it a bottleneck, the NC and VS only had access to the one cavern, the fighting was intense.

That's how you do pvp in a game.

[Xanthippe]

I played a horde rogue on a pve server to 53 and got bored.  Being able to opt in and out of pvp at will hardly seems like a real battle, and I missed the little bit of excitement upon seeing an enemy player.

So I switched to an alliance hunter on a pvp server, loved playing, got to 48, honor system went in.

Haven't played much since.

It's one thing to hunt and be hunted by players ~= the same level or within 5 levels, but another completely to be farmed - camped at instance entrances and exits, quest mobs, and so on.  This isn't a war, it's mindless ganking.  It's not fun-for-me pvp.  And it's not just 60s.  The 50s go farm in the 40s zones, the 40s in the 30s zones.

It's not that the system _allows_ this, it's that the system _rewards_ this. 

The biggest problem I see on the pvp server is that alliance is overpopulated, and became even more so after the realm transfers.  There just aren't very many little horde levelling up.  Alliance 60s are already bitching about the dearth of good pvp battles (where the horde is not outnumbered 5x1, which eventually makes them just go away and not play).

The original pvp stuff I read before launch made me want to play this game.  Especially the part about player reputation, that players who had a sufficient amount of dishonor would be attacked by their own faction's npcs, and some even attackable by other players of the same faction.  Now that is cool stuff - player justice.

The honor system patch was a complete stinker as implemented, and Blizzard needs to get its collective excrement compiled in order to fix this.

Meanwhile, in other news,  - lets see, how did Schild say it? Oh yeah - GW 4tw!

[Jayce]

Meanwhile, in other news,  - lets see, how did Schild say it? Oh yeah - GW 4tw!

Ironically, there is some speculation that WoW rolled out the honor system just in time for GW's launch so that they could retain those PvP hungry level 60 types.

Too bad they are making it look like an attractive option to those NOT at 60 yet!  Once again we have a sheep and wolf problem.  We will see if Blizzard handles it better than EA/Origin did.

[Yegolev]

Ironically, there is some speculation that WoW rolled out the honor system just in time for GW's launch so that they could retain those PvP hungry level 60 types.

That might not have backfired if WoW's PvP was any good.  It is nothing at all like GW.  You would never see a 30 vs 10 fight in GW, neither would you ever be forced into nonconsensual PvP.  While it seems obvious that the honor system was pushed out early, it seems uncharacteristically bone-headed that it was applied globally.  The PvP in GW is not global!  You won't be completing a quest solo or in a team in GW, only to receive a surprise elf up the ass or a drawn-out beatdown from a platewearing cocksniffer.  You will not be ganked immediately upon login to GW.  Other players won't be killing your quest NPCs in GW.  Nevermind WoW combat is simply not as good as in GW.  If Blizz was actually trying to compete with Arena.Net, they probably should have played the fucking game they wanted to compete with.  It's not just comparing apples and oranges, it's more like comparing apples and tigers: only one was built for killing.

[Paelos]

If Blizz would just connect a certain amount of DKs per week, say 10 or something, with losses to your reps with your own faction, that would probably serve to get a lot of the stupid out. If you were a big enough douche, you could theoretically go KOS by both factions and the only towns you could repair in would be goblin. No AH, no FPs, they'd be SOL.

[Amp]

Define a Dishonerable kill.  If it's lowbie's say 11 or more levels below you, we're gonna see them running around in the masses of lvl 60's waiting to be AoE'd.  We've got a similar problem with lvl 20's running around purging lvl 60's in battles.

I think the Honor system should just be applied to the Battlegrounds instance whenever the hell that gets put in.  Either that or remove any quests that need completion in Southshore andmake it an official open battleground.   Make the towns able to be taken over for a period of time or whatever.
 I'd also like to see different levels for instances in Battlegrounds. Be different to fight with level 30-39  newbs without horses in 50vs50 battles.

So last night I decide i'm gonna go head to SS to fight a little and see if my buddies PC handles the massive amounts of lag better then my poor laptop.  It was actualy just as bad, surprisingly. 
 My first death consisted of me running into the middle of a horde pack, while lagged. Just kept on running.  Woulda been a nice kamakazi attack had I had a power shield on and been able to cast.  But I no longer was in control of my toon.   It's like they called me out for Red Rover.  Out comes Amp for his beating.
I ran around there with my rogue buddy for abit.  Died some killed some.  Logged out dead.

I dunno, the fighting is just pretty stupid.  Move forward abit.  Try to drag a couple stupid toons out of the pack.  Die. Rinse repeat.

I'd rather just instance if i'm gonna continue to play.

[Yegolev]

If Blizz would just connect a certain amount of DKs per week, say 10 or something, with losses to your reps with your own faction, that would probably serve to get a lot of the stupid out. If you were a big enough douche, you could theoretically go KOS by both factions and the only towns you could repair in would be goblin. No AH, no FPs, they'd be SOL.

You are right.  If you accept the fact that the honor system is out there, anyone should be able to see that a lack of discentive for being an asshole coupled with rewards for being an asshole will just ruin things.  Or make it better, if you like assholes.  I don't like assholes, despite playing on a PvP server.  The gaming on a PvP server was sometimes harrowing but always doable in a reasonable sense; the lack of incentive to gank kept things at a low level most of the time.  Now my undead-warrior-ass might as well be a PC-controlled mob thanks to the rewards for killing me.  At this point, however, I don't think I'd start playing my RP toon until this is fixed.

No, I don't know what the "fix" is.  I don't know how to define a dishonorable kill.  I would confine the rewards to Battlegrounds, I think.

[Righ]

No, I don't know what the "fix" is.

Roll back to 1.3.1. Clear all PvP rewards from the item databases. Easy enough to do with WoW's monster downtimes. The 'honor' code should only have any bearing to battlegrounds.

[Xanthippe]

No, I don't know what the "fix" is.

Roll back to 1.3.1. Clear all PvP rewards from the item databases. Easy enough to do with WoW's monster downtimes. The 'honor' code should only have any bearing to battlegrounds.

This would be a good fix.

A perfect fix would be to install dishonor with regard to player killing as originally set forth.  I don't buy the arguments that it would be too easy for low levels to grief high levels. It could be made so that it's impossible for people to hit each other unless they are within some level limit.

I don't care much anymore.  The less I play WoW, the less I miss it.

[Paelos]

The easiest fix is taking it to the battlegrounds only. And seeing as how MMO developers flow the path of least resistance, I fully expect this to be the case. You can still gank up a storm elsewhere, but you'll get no honor.

[Samprimary]

The easiest fix is taking it to the battlegrounds only.

Heeeeeeeeeeee's ... right.

[Triforcer]

The easiest fix is taking it to the battlegrounds only.

Heeeeeeeeeeee's ... right.

You people think you want battlegrounds, but you really don't.  In any battle bigger than 4v4 or maybe 5v5, your death or surviving is almost completely luck.  Do three people decide to focus on you at the beginning, or don't they?  I hate 50v50 zergs because functionally it almost no different than rolling dice in orgrimmar where 1-50 means I get an honor kill and 51-100 means I fall over dead.

Give me 1v1 PvP or 1v2 PvP anyday.  I'm not ranked high because I don't do the TM grind, but when you go 1v2 against a druid and rogue that ambush you and beat them both in a random encounter in Winterspring there is no better feeling.

[Samprimary]

You people think you want battlegrounds, but you really don't.

I want battlegrounds to come and become the most efficient place to farm honor.

Then the honor farmers can thrive on that, and I can turn on WorldDefense again and not have it scroll.

[Paelos]

The easiest fix is taking it to the battlegrounds only.

Heeeeeeeeeeee's ... right.

You people think you want battlegrounds, but you really don't.  In any battle bigger than 4v4 or maybe 5v5, your death or surviving is almost completely luck.  Do three people decide to focus on you at the beginning, or don't they?  I hate 50v50 zergs because functionally it almost no different than rolling dice in orgrimmar where 1-50 means I get an honor kill and 51-100 means I fall over dead.

Give me 1v1 PvP or 1v2 PvP anyday.  I'm not ranked high because I don't do the TM grind, but when you go 1v2 against a druid and rogue that ambush you and beat them both in a random encounter in Winterspring there is no better feeling.

Triforcer, really, this is just getting into a territory you can't implement in any MMOG to date. You're essentially requesting Mortal Kombat Online with a grind. You know for a fact that battlegrounds won't be 50 on 50. First, there are NPC guards. Second, guards are upgraded by quests. Third, you have graveyard takeovers. Fourth, you have outside quests for airstrikes. I mean if you think this is going to be lining up on each side and having at each other, well, you're simply misunderstanding the design. Perhaps the battle is a dice roll sometimes, but organization means you are rolling a 10 sided die to your opponents 6.

[Righ]

The easiest fix is taking it to the battlegrounds only.

I'll state this again: roll back to 1.3.1. Clear all PvP rewards from the item databases.

Your easy fix presupposes that battlegrounds are ready, which they are not. I stated that the honor system should only have bearing on battlegrounds, however it is not the easy fix that you think it is. That is 1.3.1.

[Jeff Kelly]

The easiest fix is taking it to the battlegrounds only.

What he said

Jeff

[Margalis]

Triforcer, really, this is just getting into a territory you can't implement in any MMOG to date. You're essentially requesting Mortal Kombat Online with a grind.

Why can't it be implemented? Why not have 1v1 and 2v2 battlegrounds? I've said this before, I think that is a GREAT idea for an "end-game." Have tournaments. You can have 1v1 tournaments, partner tournaments, group tournaments, mage only tournaments, tournaments for people level 30 and below, etc etc etc. It seems like it would be a lot of fun and I don't think it would be hard to implement.

[Paelos]

Triforcer, really, this is just getting into a territory you can't implement in any MMOG to date. You're essentially requesting Mortal Kombat Online with a grind.

Why can't it be implemented? Why not have 1v1 and 2v2 battlegrounds? I've said this before, I think that is a GREAT idea for an "end-game." Have tournaments. You can have 1v1 tournaments, partner tournaments, group tournaments, mage only tournaments, tournaments for people level 30 and below, etc etc etc. It seems like it would be a lot of fun and I don't think it would be hard to implement.

Because MMOGs are about pitting many people in a simulated war, not a B.net ladder game of WC3. It runs counter-intuitive to the massive aspect of the genre. Unless you think that the B.net servers are really an MMOG in disguise. I personally do not. The other reason is that simply dueling each other constantly is freaking boring real fast. In the grinder format we have, loot would trump all. That's not the case when you take it on a larger scale. Tactical options and strategies emerge that were not possible with 1v1 or 2v2.

[Hoax]

*cough* OMG go read about GuildWars */endcough*

[Sky]

I don't buy the arguments that it would be too easy for low levels to grief high levels.

And you'd be wrong.

Hoax - Screw GW, I'm playing Planetside again.

[HaemishM]

Here's another easy fix. Only give honor rewards for specific zones and specific level ranges for zones.

For example:

Crossroads is a mostly level 10-25ish zone for Horde. Alliance players can gain honor points in that zone ONLY if they are indeed level 10-25ish. If Hillsbrad is 25ish-40, only those level players can gain honor there. Anyone out of that level range who engages in a PVP kill that they initiate get dishonor points. Dishonor takes away from your current honor totals, and if you get too much dishonor, you will be KOS to your faction. Punish people for being cockmunchers.

Notice that if the level 1 player initiates the combat, he gets dishonor. You want to reverse-grief a level 60 someone by making them attack you? You better have some good taunting skillz, y0.

Of course, I also don't think you should get honor points for attacking someone who really has no ability to kill you. If that level range is 5 levels or 10 levels or whatever it needs to be, you don't get honor for killing a level 40 if you are a level 60. I don't know the formula.

And yes, I was having monstrously good PVP in Guild Wars this weekend, and I wasn't paying a subscription fee for it either.

[Jayce]

who engages in a PVP kill that they initiate get dishonor points.

They've stated that they don't track who initiates fights.  I personally agree it's a good idea not to go down that road: you get involved in a lot of edge cases and exploits.  Think noto PKs from UO.  All a lowbie has to do to dishonor a higher level is walk into his magma totem, arcane explosion, whirlwind, etc.

[Righ]

The easiest fix is taking it to the battlegrounds only.

What he said

Jeff

Once more for the hard of thinking: roll back to 1.3.1. Clear all PvP rewards from the item databases.

In what bizzarro world does the EASIEST FIX involve writing and testing NEW CODE?