He's lucky a suspension is all he got wearing that shit.

[voodoolily]

I won't give you my opinion on drop outs. Suffice it to say you'll discover that your potential is incredibly limited in the long run. Look up the term glass ceiling. Odds are you're already at it.

80% of billionaires don't have college degrees. Next.

He was referring to high school dropouts.

Did any of you learn about social castes in high school? Specifically, which one you fit into?  Learning about how to fit into society and, I'll say it again, how far you can push boundaries, are as important, if not MORE important than learning which civilization developed cuneiform. Teens are at the most difficult developmental stage because they look like adults (and are biologically mature) and are expected to act like adults but are still treated as children. "Conform or die" is not necessarily the reality of being a productive member of socitey. Teens have to struggle with figuring out in which circumstances originality is acceptable (e.g., critical thinking) and when it is unprofessional or garners negative consequences (e.g., dressing unconventionally). Even the straight kids have to figure this shit out, albeit within a smaller sphere of reality.

Also, don't you think it's better that they do this when they're young and don't have to suffer the real consequences? I spent my last two years of high school either selling LSD or on it, and yeah, I was a bit distracting to some kids (drawing trippy pictures and saying spaced-out shit in Economics), but I got it all out of my system so that at age 18 I had gotten a job, my own apartment, and enrolled myself in college (luckily, I had been an accelerated learner throughout my academic career so blowing off my senior year didn't really impact me). A couple of years of challenging authority and trying to figure out who I was was crucial to my development as an adult. At least this kid is learning now what he can get away with instead of finding out later when our taxes pay for his room and board in jail.

[Paelos]

Edit:  According to Forbes you're full of shit:

http://www.forbes.com/2000/06/29/feat_print.html

That isn't the world list. Something like 691 in the world. The US only has 234. I can't find college stats for the world list right now but I did find where it says 41% of billionaires on the US list inherited the wealth (the world inherited percent is much higher).

God please don't turn this into a street smarts vs. book smarts thread. It's stupid enough as it is.

[HaemishM]

Let me start by making two quite obvious statements.

I was a non-conformist dick in high school. Yeah, I know, shock. I would have been this kid, except I really didn't want the rest of my life and potential future in college fucked up because I kept wanting to push the principal's buttons. It just wasn't worth the hassle.

Our educational system is fucking borked.

Now, as the first point, I was a know-it-all cockmunch in high school, and honestly in need of a beating most likely. A lot of the stupid shit I believed then has been refined by experience to more accurately fit with the picture of reality I have now. I had a few things over on this kid. First, I didn't have a divorced set of parents, and there's your first clue that this kid is acting out. Secondly, my mother, who was a teacher in the same school district, rather than support my asstardery, would have told me to shut the hell up and do what I was told. She would have disciplined me in addition to whatever I got from the school, because that's what parents should do when their kid gets in trouble at school.

Now, had I ACTUALLY been the victim of harrassment from school officials, she'd have gone after them with flamethrowers; but this is quite clearly NOT THAT SITUATION. This kid wants to dress up like a retard, in a clearly disruptive manner. I'd say the same thing if he wanted to wear a dress, or if a girl wanted to wear a skirt so short you could see morning dew on the bushes. It isn't that other kids can't concentrate when Boppo the Clown walks in, it's that the potential exists for disruptions to happen. The kid will get a beatdown; the kid will get spitballed and harrassed by other students; hell, other students will spend so much time making jokes that they don't pay attention. The potential exists for trouble. As a policymaker, you have to weigh whether or not the negatives of that policy outweigh the positives. The negatives of him not being able to wear makeup? Not much really. The kid feels put upon by authority, boo-fucking-hoo. The positives? Other kids don't have another excuse to treat this kid like shit, possibly causing fights, disruptions in class, more discipline, etc. No contest. His "freedom of expression" is not worth that.

Our education system? They ARE conformity factories, and they all too often are given more responsibility than power. It seems like society wants the schools to be surrogate parents, but then they aren't allowed to discipline the kids. Spankings? Right out? Suspensions? Wheee, kids get free vacation days. The only "real" power they have is expulsion, and that's not a solution except in cases where the student is a clear and present danger to the other students and teachers. Parents seem to be abdicating their powers as disciplinarians, yet litigious asshats have removed schools disciplinary powers at the same time. My mother has been a teacher for years, as has my sister. I know thereof what I speak.

Add onto the educational system the inequalities in funding because of differing tax bases, and you have excellent schools with an overabundance of funding 10 miles from schools 1 step removed from gang-infested cesspools. Then you have grandstanding politicians who pass laws like "No Child Left Behind" mandating corporate-style school district reviews that affect funding, and yet don't bother to fully fund the program that is supposed to help. THANKS, MONKEYFUCKER.

Money is not the only solution. Evening out funding across all districts might help. Upping teacher pay would be another good step. Removing dumbass useless positions like "guidance counsellor" would be another good start. But the biggest change needed is one of curriculum. Yes, it's different than in my day, but it's still wrong. We educate for standardized testing and rote memorization, not actual learning. We don't teach kids to think critically, for themselves, and we don't challenge kids. Our schools do not teach them about life in the business world, nor do we teach them good job habits. Not even job skills, but job habits. I cruised through school, not because I was some kind of genius some of the other kids thought I was, but because I knew how the system worked and I GAMED IT. I knew how to pass tests with little effort.

College education is a much better model for education, because colleges give less of a shit about testing and memorization and more about the actual learning process. Now, for some teachers, college is just a harder version of high school with more reading and writing. I think, especially at the high school level, the separation between teacher and student is handled incorrectly. Look at most classrooms. Teacher stands in front and lectures, students sit and take notes. Why? Why isn't the teacher less of a lecturer and more of a storyteller? Why is memorizing what's in a textbook such a preferred method of learning, instead of application and critical thought and discussion? For math and the sciences, application is more important than memory. For things like literature and history, application is never considered except for the "exceptional students." Why aren't more students made to write and discuss poetry? Because it's easier to just throw useless laundry lists of symbology at students and have them memorize that for the test. That's why most adults don't read literature these days, because they were never taught how to. That's why most adults don't understand history, because they memorized it for a test and then forgot it, never learning or discussing the importance of the events.

Teachers have been trained to be fact vending machines, not leaders of discussion. The base problem with education is that it was built for assembly line construction of lever-pullers, and we've moved beyond that. The only way for the education system to improve is for it to unlearn its bad habits of the past.

But none of that involves allowing Johnny Rottencrotch to dress up like a goddamn idiot just to get attention.

[Roac]

On a different note, I would never hire or not hire someone based on being a drop out.

I would seriously consider it (and as a manager, do).  If they don't even have a high school degree or GED I wouldn't even consider them.  Sorry, if you couldn't put up with that level of bullshit you won't make it here (development + gov't).  All of the requirements we have as far as organizing meetings, doing project planning, writing technical evaluation reports... no way.  Maybe they can do the job, but I get dozens of applications and am only going to interview a few. 

For that matter, I would take serious consideration to tossing anything that didn't have a 4y degree on it.  There are technical skills taught in schools that are simply not taught anywhere else.  You don't get them from a certification, and you don't get them on the job.  Someone would have to otherwise be very attractive on their resume to get an interview. 

But it depends on the job.  If I were hiring for a shift manager at a fast food place (done that, too), I'd have different standards.

Why not educate people in a way that prepares them for introduction into larger society?

If one of my empoyees shows up dressed like a goth, they get to go home.  They do it again, and they won't be back.  How's that for education and as an introduction into a larger society?  Good thing they learned not to dress like a jackass early in life, right?  You know, like maybe in school, where they are supposed to learn and be prepared for later life?  Oh, wait.

What they need to learn isn't that expression is bad, they need to learn that there are right and WRONG times to express yourself, and that there are different ways in which you can express yourself.  Not all of them are valid in all places.  They also need to learn that when you express yourself, people respond accordingly.  Want to express that you hate The System?  Guess what, it will return the favor.

[voodoolily]

Thanks, Haem, for addressing the larger issues. Also, I think what you said about your own experiences strengthens my point that the primary education system (and our parent(s)) is/are supposed to gear us up for the more abstract aspects of adulthood. I, too, knew how to work the system to my advantage and skated through unscathed, with very little effort. What is expected from us is never so clearly delineated as it is before we become adults. This kid will hopefully learn from this.

[Roac]

I wonder how many of you guys are actually parents...

I mean if this was your kid, for whatever reason who wanted to dress "too differently" by the school standerds your saying you would have no trouble?

I'm a parent.  If the school tells my daughter not to wear something, unless it defies all reason ("underwear is banned"), she won't wear it.  If diamond studded earrings were banned, but huge ass hoop rings were not, that's the rule - although I'd be curious about it, for sure.  If the school feels something is causing them a problem, or even if they just want to hold up a rule to make an example of their authority, it doesn't bother me all that much.  She can be all expressive-like when she gets home.

This kid sounds like he's not a good student and he probably pissed his teachers off and now they are suspending him for what he wears.

I have multiple family members and friends who are teachers.  My wife started down that track but switched to a liberal degree, but is going back to get a masters in teaching.  She's also done work in schools in the past.  While there are always bad apples, if you really think that teaches by and large go around suspending people for bullshit reasons just because they get on their nerves, your head is screwed on the wrong end of your ass.

[Pococurante]

For that matter, I would take serious consideration to tossing anything that didn't have a 4y degree on it.  There are technical skills taught in schools that are simply not taught anywhere else.  You don't get them from a certification, and you don't get them on the job.  Someone would have to otherwise be very attractive on their resume to get an interview.

Yeah this works against a lot of young people in the technical field, or used to anyway.  Some kid makes himself into a hotshot programmer/modeler whatever and goes straight from High School junior to working for a company.  Where they hit their personal glass ceiling almost immediately.  Not because they lack the capacity to learn all the other skils required to reach their true potential.  But because they lack the exposure to different kinds of people and experiences that a technical or collegiate school delivers as intangible benefits.

Of course some rise anyway - they're just that good and they're often the scrappy ones that exceed pretty much anyone else anyway.  But the great majority spend their energy whining about discrimination because they don't "have that piece of paper".  Never once realizing that the least bit of information communicated by the piece of paper is the GPA...

I personally don't care about this kid or his mother - from my POV he can wear what he wants and spend all his days in suspension telling everyone at the bar how unfairly they've been treated.  I can be pretty liberal on some social issues but I give everyone the right to decide their own life.  The world badly needs drudges too and often folks like that become pretty damn good citizens by the time they hit their late 30s.

[Hoax]

I have multiple family members and friends who are teachers.  My wife started down that track but switched to a liberal degree, but is going back to get a masters in teaching.  She's also done work in schools in the past.  While there are always bad apples, if you really think that teaches by and large go around suspending people for bullshit reasons just because they get on their nerves, your head is screwed on the wrong end of your ass.

*shrug*

Unfortunately for you no matter where you claim my head is screwed you can't tell me my personal experiences are false.  I'm not really trying to convince you of anything.  If you dont mind that schools create these ridiculously ambiguous sets of rules, with big loopholes like "anything deemed inappropriate" then enforce them as they see fit.  You dont mind, good for you but try not to come across as some whiney bitch telling me how hard waiters work because they've done it that I need to not be offended by receipts that tell me what the 15% 20% and 25% tip are with your comment about all the great fucking teachers you know.

I know several people who are cops, they are all really great dedicated people who believe in what they are doing.  Does this mean every time I see some news story about police abusing their authority I assume somebody just has their head up their ass?  No, there are good and bad people in every job, besides we're not talking about teachers really, we're talking about administration who set these rules and typically enforce them.  I'm pretty sure any teacher can tell you administration is typically a bunch of fucking assholes who often dont care much about the kids themselves.

[Paelos]

You dont mind, good for you but try not to come across as some whiney bitch telling me how hard waiters work because they've done it that I need to not be offended by receipts that tell me what the 15% 20% and 25% tip are with your comment about all the great fucking teachers you know.

I can tell you your English teacher would cringe at that sentence.

[Yoru]

Since Haemish brought up the 'our educational system is fucked' point, I figured this might be of interest: John Taylor Gatto's "Underground History of American Education". I recently finished reading it myself. I found a lot of the conclusions he draws in the book to be tinfoil-hat conspiracy crackpot material, but some of the raw information - especially anecdotes about working within the New York City public school system - is very interesting with regards to just how broken the US educational system is. Particularly the part about standardized testing vs. learning actual skills and principles.

College education is a much better model for education, because colleges give less of a shit about testing and memorization and more about the actual learning process.

 Sadly, I think most of our colleges are moving away from the university ideal and towards a more school-like experience. From what I've seen, there's a push to make a college degree a surrogate for early job training, whereas, in my opinion, the real purpose of a university education is to expose yourself to a wide variety of ideas and to enable the exploration of a vast store of knowledge and skills.

For that matter, I would take serious consideration to tossing anything that didn't have a 4y degree on it.  There are technical skills taught in schools that are simply not taught anywhere else.  You don't get them from a certification, and you don't get them on the job.  Someone would have to otherwise be very attractive on their resume to get an interview.

Yeah this works against a lot of young people in the technical field, or used to anyway.  Some kid makes himself into a hotshot programmer/modeler whatever and goes straight from High School junior to working for a company.  Where they hit their personal glass ceiling almost immediately.  Not because they lack the capacity to learn all the other skils required to reach their true potential.  But because they lack the exposure to different kinds of people and experiences that a technical or collegiate school delivers as intangible benefits.

 It still does, and that's exactly why, although modern technical degrees (at the bachelor's level) are meaning less and less. Self-taught technical folks rarely have the opportunity or the means to explore a wide variety of the possibilities out on the market - they tend to pick one thing, get good at it, take a job hinging on that single skill, and get stuck. The advantage of a good education is that you have guides who can point out variations and other paths to look down that lend a breadth of experience unparalleled by anything aside from years of experience in a very diverse working environment.

 However, a lot of the kids coming out of the degree mills today that I've met seem to have been exposed to very little breadth or depth. They seem to have been given the basics, a slip of paper, and a pat on the back. It's distressing, to say the least.

[voodoolily]

.  You dont mind, good for you but try not to come across as some whiney bitch telling me how hard waiters work because they've done it that I need to not be offended by receipts that tell me what the 15% 20% and 25% tip are with your comment about all the great fucking teachers you know.

...and the winner of the run-on sentence award goes to....

Edit: oh, Paelos beat me to the punch.

[Roac]

If you dont mind that schools create these ridiculously ambiguous sets of rules, with big loopholes like "anything deemed inappropriate" then enforce them as they see fit.

Life is full of rules that are non-specific yet need enforcing.  Dress codes are an easy example.  Summed up, ours (at work) is "dress appropriately" - if you don't know what that means, don't bother applying.  Whether you should (and some places, expressly should not) wear a tie are minor faux pas, but if you show up looking like a chicken, you missed the mark.  The only alternative is to list every conceivable item that is forbidden - or else go to uniform, and only list what is allowed.  You can't enumerate inappropriate behavior, which requires some ambiguity, and somewhere in there is the need for thinking.  I don't mind that this is required at a school, by its students.

I'm pretty sure any teacher can tell you administration is typically a bunch of fucking assholes who often dont care much about the kids themselves.

That's bullshit.  Teachers know that administrators are hamstrung by the politics of public education, almost all of which are the parents themselves.  Whatever the teacher thinks is best for the student is, after a point, irrelevant.  Public schools are at the mercy of the public, specifically the parents, and it's an administrator's job to mediate the needs of the parents and the needs of the teachers.

[Murgos]

80% of billionaires don't have college degrees. Next.

Even if that were true...

What do you suppose is the ratio of dropout billionaires to dropouts who are poor?

Yeah, i hear winning the mega lottery works well too.

Xilren

Considering there are 2 high-school drop out billionaires and 18 million drop outs (2003 census) your odds of being a high-school drop out billionaire (1:9,000,000) are better than the odds of winning the Florida Lottery (1:22,000,000 or so) at least in the US.

Hmm, 100 billionaires in the US have advanced degrees so therefore you are 50x more likey to be a billionaire (in the US) if you get an advanced degree than if you drop out of high-school.  Interestingly, there are also about 18,000,000 people in the US with Graduate or Professional degrees (nice bell curve there) which means your odds being a billionaire are about 1:180,000 or so.

[voodoolily]

Considering there are 2 high-school drop out billionaires and 18 million drop outs (2003 census) your odds of being a high-school drop out billionaire (1:9,000,000) are better than the odds of winning the Florida Lottery (1:22,000,000 or so) at least in the US.

Hmm, 100 billionaires in the US have advanced degrees so therefore you are 50x more likey to be a billionaire (in the US) if you get an advanced degree than if you drop out of high-school. Interestingly, there are also about 18,000,000 people in the US with Graduate or Professional degrees (nice bell curve there) which means your odds being a billionaire are about 1:180,000 or so.

My, my, my. Someone did well in statistics!

[Pococurante]

If you dont mind that schools create these ridiculously ambiguous sets of rules, with big loopholes like "anything deemed inappropriate" then enforce them as they see fit.

I don't mind.  I think one of the biggest problems with the American legal system since 1930s is we keep trying to make a rule for every single situation that can occur.  The problem with this is that it removes human judgement from the equation.  Which is how we get into some of the most awful abuses like mandatory sentencing.

As far as school dress codes, we know it's the definition of cool to find every flaw in a rule and dance through it.  A thirteen year old thinks it's cute to stand while singing at the table since after all the rule is no singing when seated at the table.  "Anything deemed appropriate" is a much better standard.

Every now and then I get "adults" who think that way.  I don't keep them on my teams very long if they can't cut bait.

A sense of entitlement is a crippling character flaw.  It does a kid a favor to shock them out of it.

[Paelos]

It's a gaming board. These people learned Stat from EQ.

[Murgos]

It's a gaming board. These people learned Stat from EQ.

A better teacher there never was...

Ok, we've killed 345 Giant_Mob_X's there should have been two uber_gimp armor drops and a mega_foozle killer sword drop.  Who ninja-looted?

[Margalis]

It is not that the sight of the kid is distracting, it is the murmur through the class when he walks in, and people whispering about him and craning their necks to see what stupid shit he wore today.

Those kids are creating the problem, they are the ones who should go home. You know, the ones talking in class and actually bothering people.

[Murgos]

It is not that the sight of the kid is distracting, it is the murmur through the class when he walks in, and people whispering about him and craning their necks to see what stupid shit he wore today.

Those kids are creating the problem, they are the ones who should go home. You know, the ones talking in class and actually bothering people.

God, I am glad you aren't running anything other than your mouth.

[Roac]

Those kids are creating the problem, they are the ones who should go home. You know, the ones talking in class and actually bothering people.

Lets see.  We can toss the one kid who shows up dressed for an 80s horror show and obviously breaking school rules regarding dress, or we can toss the twenty odd students who are shocked by the display.

Low hanging fruit.  Paint a target on yourself, you get shot.

[voodoolily]

I'm so grateful that I actually had good teachers and went to a liberal public school. I was, like some of you, the know-it-all who caused everyone to mutter "shut up" under their breath every time I went on a political tangent. One time, I just turned around and told one them to go fuck himself. The teacher was like, "watch your mouth" or something, and when I told him that so n' so told me to shut up, he actually made the kid apologize to me. That is a good teacher.

[schild]

I wouldn't be surprised if most people on this website are the Breakfast Club type.

[voodoolily]

I wouldn't be surprised if most people on this website are the Breakfast Club type.

Is that what's up with the Anthony Michael Hall avatar? The Jesus posted a pic of Molly Ringwald yesterday. This explains a lot.

[schild]

I think all the mods have Breakfast Club avatars right now. Oh, the administrators too, can't forget Haemish, myself and that other guy. Shock...shock....shock....something.

[Murgos]

I wouldn't be surprised if most people on this website are the Breakfast Club type.

I hung out with the marginally rebellious youth who could be found skipping class behind the library smoking.  Oddly enough in that group of kids was one who scored near perfect on the SAT (1590's) and another who is highly placed in one of the major political parties, all the kids from that group I have talked to have gone on to be at least moderately successful.  Except the hot girl, she worked as a stripper for a while and dropped of the radar.

[Polysorbate80]

I wouldn't be surprised if most people on this website are the Breakfast Club type.

Except none of my detentions ever went anything like that, dangit.

[Sky]

Which is how we get into some of the most awful abuses like mandatory sentencing.

They're trying to build a prison.

Following the rights movements
You clamped on with your iron fists,
Drugs became conveniently
Available for all the kids,

I buy my crack, my smack, my bitch,
Right here in Hollywood,

Nearly 2 million Americans are incarcerated
In the prison system
Prison system of the U.S.

They're trying to build a prison

Minor drug offenders fill your prisons
You don't even flinch
All our taxes paying for your wars
Against the new non-rich,

I buy my crack, my smack, my bitch,
Right here in Hollywood,

The percentage of Americans in the prison system
Prison system, has doubled since 1985

They're trying to build a prison,
For you and me,
Oh baby, you and me.

All research and successful drug policy show
That treatment should be increased,
And law enforcement decreased,
While abolishing mandatory minimum sentences.

Utilizing drugs to pay for secret wars around the world,
Drugs are now your global policy,
Now you police the globe,

I buy my crack, my smack, my bitch,
Right here in Hollywood,

Drug money is used to rig elections,
And train brutal corporate sponsored
Dictators around the world.

They're trying to build a prison,
For you and me,
Oh baby, you and me.

[schild]

Which is how we get into some of the most awful abuses like mandatory sentencing.

Lyrics

A million years have come and gone
the Earth is shifting towards the sun
synthetic atmosphere is lost
and forces the computers off
communications are confused
the tides reverse
and start a chain reaction

the seismograph's consulted
incredible results
it says we're losing all control, losing all control
the scientists around the world
decipher everything they do
but they don't really know, they don't really know
instead of systematic,
the news becomes irratic
no-one can agree, no-one can agree
the world is getting frantic
as people start a panic
what does all this mean?

[Merusk]

I wouldn't be surprised if most people on this website are the Breakfast Club type.

Hey cool another group I don't get to fit into.

Just like High School, and every endeavour since then.

Categorize me as "the guy who fits into all of the above, and none" since we're playing the label game.

[stray]

I wouldn't be surprised if most people on this website are the Breakfast Club type.

Except none of my detentions ever went anything like that, dangit.

I was in put a special detention group called "The Launching Pad" (the highschool mascot had something to do with "Rockets" -- go figure). It was me and 7 of my friends. Basically the worst kids in school. Breakfast Club material we were not. Judd Nelson would have gotten his ass handed to him in a second.

I'm not sure how it happened though. We were just a group of cocky little skate punks that knew each other from middle school. When we got into highschool, we got involved with the Latin Kings -- but ended up being more crazy than those guys were.

Anyways, I (and the group I hung around with) were so low and beyond hope that I almost have to be proud of it. If only because I turned out OK in the end. Not my friends though -- One ended up becoming the head of the San Antonio Latin Kings -- he ended up with a bullet in his head (but he's not dead!). After that, he ended up going to prison for rape -- now serving a 20 year sentence. Another is serving a 20 year sentence, in the same rape case. Another just got out after a 10 year sentence. Another was serving a 60 year-till parole sentence for murder, but was killed almost the moment after he stepped into prison. Turned out the guy he killed was in the Mexican Mafia. One of the girls from that group has kids from multiple fathers -- one of which is serving a life sentence.

Anyways, there's more horror stories, but I won't go on. I swear it's true though.

And me? For some odd reason I turned to religion.

[schild]

And me? For some odd reason I turned to religion.

Odd reason? No, many people do.

But as you can see, that's very very not about oppression, my friend. If anything it sounds like you brought that shit on yourself.

[stray]

And me? For some odd reason I turned to religion.

Odd reason? No, many people do.

It was just a joke. I have to be a little humorous after mentioning all those bad memories in that post.

As for oppression, my story had nothing to do with it. You're right. I was just relating to the subject of the "Breakfast Club".

Edit: Hmm...Time for a new avatar.

[Shockeye]

Shock...shock....shock....something.

Are you asking for The Shocker?

I think I can oblige you that.

[schild]

I think the girl behind him just got one.

Is this thread NSFW? Or was it already when you made the first post?

[voodoolily]

And me? For some odd reason I turned to religion.

Odd reason? No, many people do.

It was just a joke. I have to be a little humorous after mentioning all those bad memories in that post.

As for oppression, my story had nothing to do with it. You're right. I was just relating to the subject of the "Breakfast Club".

Edit: Hmm...Time for a new avatar.

What's the name of the LAtino gang on the Shield? The Holy Rollers? YOu should use the guy with the crown of thorns skull tat from that gang.