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Author Topic: New Avengers  (Read 34056 times)
HaemishM
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Reply #105 on: April 03, 2006, 11:10:57 AM

He was good before he started doing superheroes. AKA Goldfish, Jinx and Torso are all great series. Even his early Daredevil stuff was good, before he outed DD as Matt Murdock. From then on, it's seemed like he's written one long series of "SHOCKING MOMENTS!" after another, spaced around self-deprecating gags that only fit Spider-Man's character.

Llava
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Reply #106 on: April 04, 2006, 03:53:19 AM

"Listen, you new goblin-themed villain... I don't know if you know your goblin-themed history... but your outfit is in really bad taste.  And oh, sweet God, I hope there's not an Osborn under that mask, I really can't handle any more Osborns."

I mean, I don't know Spidey all that well, but that doesn't seem like the kind of thing he'd joke about.  That sounds more like a comic fan making a joke and then making Spider-Man say it in the first person.

Also, he has a line about:
"I'm three days away from you finding me running around Times Square in nothing but my web-shooters and my mask whooping it up about power and responsibility."

Spider-Man certainly is self-aware these days, isn't he?

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Mazakiel
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Reply #107 on: April 04, 2006, 09:06:28 AM

Christ, are those actual quotes?  That sounds like parody, not actual dialogue. 

Glad to see the franchises have been handled so well since I had to stop reading them years ago.  /green
HaemishM
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Reply #108 on: April 04, 2006, 09:24:50 AM

Some of Bendis' gags are funny, and he actually does handle some characters well. Like Spider-Man. It's just when he really gets cranked up, EVERYONE sounds the exact same, as if he's narrating the story in one voice.

Llava
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Reply #109 on: April 04, 2006, 01:06:13 PM

Christ, are those actual quotes?  That sounds like parody, not actual dialogue. 

My thoughts exactly.

And yes, verbatim quotes.  Was reading 'em out of the book as I was typing them.

It's not just writing in one voice, which I've noticed as well but isn't bothering me so much- it's that he breaks the fourth wall for the sake of some of these gags.  That's when you cross the line from humorous to parody.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Mazakiel
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Reply #110 on: April 04, 2006, 01:41:27 PM

He obviously needs an editor to take a firm hand or something.  I know he can do pretty good work, like the previously mentioned AKA Goldfish.  And while flippant remarks or silliness may fit with Spiderman to a degree (though again, not those quotes you posted) they don't fit many other characters, but from what I've read, he does it with just about all of them.  I just can't fathom how that stuff, or just about any of the stuff Marvel is doing these days, seems like a good idea to anyone there. 

Oh well, I just pick up collected stuff anyways anymore, so I just know what to skip in the future. 
Velorath
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Reply #111 on: April 20, 2006, 11:58:45 AM

The plot inches forward a little bit with issue 18, as the characters learn at the end of the issue what readers have been aware of for months now:  The Collective is made up of the energy from the depowered mutants.  Sentry finally sees some action this issue and... well to be honest doesn't really seem to last any longer in a fight with the Collective than Ms. Marvel did.  Bendis also manages to drag in another one of his characters into the book.  This time it's Agent Johnson from Secret War.  No, I didn't read it either.

Anyway, big fight scene and apparently Iron Man's idea of using Spider-man's brains instead of his powers to fight the Collective just involves using the Vision to access Avengers files.  Way to go Spidey!  At least he gets something to do though.  Wolverine, Spider-woman, and Luke Cage might as well be back at the Tower helping Jarvis clean or something.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 03:52:02 PM by Velorath »
HaemishM
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Reply #112 on: April 20, 2006, 12:30:46 PM

Agent Johnson is brought in and does nothing. The Young Avengers are apparently living in the Avengers tower. I'm getting real tired of the Avengers threatening to arrest the Young Avengers every time they see them; it just makes no sense.

The whole Collective thing? Stupid. Iron Man calls the whole team together just to make a joke about how he'd like it if they could talk nice about him after he's gone? The Collective is an over-energized postal worker?

Bleah.

Velorath
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Reply #113 on: May 25, 2006, 10:02:45 PM

Issue 19 in Bendis' experiment in making Iron Man look like the most powerful hero in the Marvel Universe while making everyone else look incompetent.  That and plugging House of M.  Yes that's right.  House. Of. M.  Missed it the first two times?  That's House... of... M.  It's actually repeated 6 times in the book but I couldn't bring myself to type it out three more times to make a point.  It's fucking stupid.  It would be like if the X-men actually used the phrase "The Phoenix Saga" when talking about those events, or "hey Spider-man, remember that whole Kraven's Last Hunt:  Fearful Symmetry thing?"

And Iron Man... fucking Iron Man.  This guy is going toe to toe with someone who is supposed to have the powers of thousands of mutants?  He can actually stop the Collective for a moment because he was "able to deconstruct the primary engery fields he's using based on old files of Magneto and Company and process an energy field that can counteract it."

Even for superhero books, that level of writing is unacceptable.  That kind of shit gives Iron Man of level of power and undefinable abilities that would make even Dr. Strange jealous.  From now on Iron Man should be able to beat any villain by pulling up files on them and coming up with some kinda shit to counteract them.  Presumably the only reason Iron Man can't put the Collective down for the count is that he doesn't have every depowered mutant's energy on file.  Of course for all that power and ability he's still stupid enough to put Spider-man on SHIELD's helicarrier despite the fact that he doesn't trust SHIELD, nor the army of psycics they apparently have on board.  Spider-man's comment of "some futurist" I'm sure was Bendis poking a bit of fun at himself, but really it ends up being a sad reminder that the characters are just here to dance on Bendis' strings to get the story from point A to point B regardless of consistency or logic.

Now maybe this is all a setup by Iron Man to give SHIELD information that was being witheld.  After all, Iron Man is shown in the Illuminati special to support the Registration Act and that presumably takes place before this issue (as the act was still secret at the time).  On the other hand, Illuminati has yet to really be referenced by any other book and from what I've heard a recent issue of Iron Man actually has him against the act at first.  So in that respect I find it a little hard to have any sort of faith that this is actually woven into story.  Bendis' idea of continuity right now seems to involve dragging one of his characters in from Secret War for a page in the previous issue and then promptly forgetting about her.

Finally we reach the end of the book, where one of the SHIELD agents tells Iron Man and Sentry to stop fighting the Collective so he can go about his way to wherever he was heading.  As soon as the break off the attack the Collective flies off to Genosha (they mention he might possibly be looking for Scarlet Witch).  Now while I'm overwhelmed by the fact that this story might actually be advancing I have to ask... if he was heading for Genosha all this time and was only distracted when people attacked him, what the fuck brought him to New York in the first place?  Did it just happen to be directly in his path?  Most of the other New Avengers as usual don't get to do shit by the way.

HaemishM
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Reply #114 on: May 25, 2006, 11:12:40 PM

Yeah, unfortunately I agree with everything you said. Let's not forget that when Wanda was last seen, it was nowwhere near Genosha. In fact, it looked more like the villages of Eastern Europe than anything in Genosha.

The Avengers referring to it as "House of M" is really just stupid. I mean, really stupid, because they never referred to it as that in the story, or even as the House of M, more like the House of Magnus. It's a title that wasn't really even any good for the series itself.

I got the same vibe off the Iron Man thing. Although, the Shield chick did mention the registration act at least once or twice, so it is referenced. But it has as much to do with the story as the price of tea in China. The only other Avenger besides Iron Man or Sentry who does anything is Luke Cage, and all he does is break down a door. I seriously can't see why this book even has other characters. It has Spider-Man to quip, Captain America as some kind of a moralizer, Spider-Woman provides friction (and her whole arc is just retarded), and Iron Man does all the work. Oh yes, and Wolverine gets to act badass while doing nothing. I really can't see why anyone likes this book, and yet my friend swears by it.

Velorath
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Reply #115 on: June 22, 2006, 05:40:48 PM

I could pretty much sum up issue 20 by cutting and pasting previous comments I've made about the series here.  Pretty much everything that was wrong with the previous issues is still wrong here.  Except of course, this time around Bendis had the inspired idea of adding Xorn to plotline, allowing it to hit new lows.  Bravo.
Llava
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Reply #116 on: June 23, 2006, 07:03:49 AM

I...thought Xorn didn't really exist?   It was Magneto who wasn't really Magneto?  Are you telling me that Xorn, who was Magneto who wasn't really Magneto, wasn't really Xorn?

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Velorath
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Reply #117 on: June 23, 2006, 08:04:18 AM

Fuck if I know.
Llava
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Reply #118 on: June 23, 2006, 08:47:47 AM

But if he wasn't really Xorn and wasn't really Magneto...

who the fuck was he?!

« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 08:50:15 AM by Llava »

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
HaemishM
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Reply #119 on: June 23, 2006, 09:56:09 AM

Right after Morrison left the X-Men and it was Claremont and Austen writing the two main books, Xorn was found in a monastery in China, having difficulty. He was brought back to the mansion, and promptly forgotten about once they changed writers. There was no explanation as to who he was or who the Magneto/Xorn, who apparently wasn't really Magneto either, was.

Really, the character is a blackhole of lost plot threads that no one seems willing to unfuck. I haven't read this issue of Avengers, but I'm sure it sucked if they bring Xorn into it.

Velorath
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Reply #120 on: June 23, 2006, 11:55:02 PM

Quesada explains the Xorn situation:

Quote
Kuan-Yen Xorn and Shen Xorn were twin brothers from China, both mutants, one with the power of a star in his head, one the power of a black hole. Kuan-Yen Xorn came under the influence of as-yet-to-be-revealed entity that forced him to assume the identity of Magneto, battle the X-Men and destroy Manhattan. He was subsequently killed by Wolverine near the end of that battle, in the Planet X storyline.

Soon thereafter, his twin brother Shen surfaced and briefly joined the X-Men. This Xorn brother was de-powered during M-Day.

Because Xorn's powers were psychokinetic, and his personality was so strong, it basically remained an almost disembodied sentient thing among the big ball of mutant energy. When that energy got sucked down to Earth by Michael and all absorbed by him, Xorn was the dominant personality in the mix, and that's what drove him towards Genosha and Magneto.

Look... sometimes it's ok to just let plotlines get forgotten, especially when they suck.  They used to do it all the time in the X-books.  Did anyone at Marvel involved with this ever stop and look at what they were doing and say "you know, this shit really isn't making for a good story."

I can understand wanting to build on some of the stuff Morrison did during his run, but really Xorn only worked in the context of Morrison's stories.  His run has a certain kind of feel to it that makes it strange to take elements out of it and put them in the greater MU.  Even the use of Cassandra Nova in Astonishing X-men feels a little off to me, but all this shit with Xorn is so much worse because it doesn't make for a compelling story in any way, shape, or form.  Here especially it stands out as a direct response to people on the Internet asking Quesada if there will ever be an explanation of the Magneto/Xorn stuff.  Beyond that, it's completely out of place here and I have to imagine there are a lot of New Avengers readers out there are wondering who the fuck Xorn is, because it certainly doesn't get any sort of meaningful explanation in the story itself.

This is the textbook definition of continuity used poorly.  It's a somewhat obscure plot-thread from a completely different book being wrapped up in the last issue of a four-part story without explaining to the readers in the pages of said four-part story any of the important details that would allow them to understand what's going on.
Johny Cee
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Reply #121 on: June 25, 2006, 08:32:20 PM

I"m going to stick this here, since I don't want to rez any threads:

House of M graphic novels are out.  I decided to read a bunch of them on my lunch hour.  Most of my impressions on that follow are from when I regularly read comics around '90,  so feel free to correct me if I'm way out of date.

Fuck Wolverine.  Fuck him.

The point of the Avengers is that these people arent the baddest or toughest superheroes around:  it's the fact they're Heros.  With all the righteousness and aversion to moral ambiguity that entails.  There's a reason why Cap America (with all his outdated and prissy bullshit) is more often than not their leader:

They draw lines in the sand,  and make stands for unfightable absolutes.  In that way,  they're like the ACLU.  Most people on both the right and the left just want the ACLU to disappear sometimes so we can go ahead and make the moral/ethical compromises that allow society to work.

The one part of the books that got that right was Quicksilver & Wanda saying how important being an Avenger was to them, because it made them HEROS. 

Tony Stark/Iron Man is almost always an Avenger because he has such problems with ethics/morals.  He wants to be a better person,  but then he ends up drinking, or screwing aroudn with friends wives.  He NEEDS to be around people like Cap so he doesn't completely lose his way.

Spider-man actually has potential for the Avengers.  He has that overdeveloped moral sense/societal burden going for him.  He's willing to shoulder it.

He shouldn't be a punching bag to boost Wolverine's fucking self-esteem.

The rest of the team struck me as kind of "meh".  But that's okay, if you have a couple strong lead characters.  Typically, the Avengers used to be chock full of blah characters so that the two or three interesting characters had someone to play off of.

I'm not sure I even want to know how Ms. Marvel got brought back.  Didn't Rogue kill her and drain her powers by accident?  Or something? 

Next lunch hour,  I'm going to try and find that Punisher graphic novel where he spends the whole time shooting and maiming Wolverine to keep the idiot out of Frank's hair.

I hate that guy.

___________________________________

As for the rest of House of M....

The X writers have always had a problem balancing the "mutant hate as racism/sexism/homophobie allegory" with the way they go about writing.  The writers constantly introduce new and superpowerful mutants that then hang around in the background. 

Realistically, you either have to drop the allegory (comics don't change premises, so this is impossible) or have a purge of all the super powerful mutants.  If you didn't get rid of a bunch of the mutants,  they could have taken over the US by this point.

I read basically around the time where the Marauders and others had that whole business in the Morlock tunnels.  House of M clears out the superpowered again.  Look for the next purge in 15 years,  when some mucky-muck at Marvel realizes the vast amount of mutant secondary characters running around.

HaemishM
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Reply #122 on: June 26, 2006, 08:26:47 AM

Quesada explains the Xorn situation:

Quote
Kuan-Yen Xorn and Shen Xorn were twin brothers from China, both mutants, one with the power of a star in his head, one the power of a black hole. Kuan-Yen Xorn came under the influence of as-yet-to-be-revealed entity that forced him to assume the identity of Magneto, battle the X-Men and destroy Manhattan. He was subsequently killed by Wolverine near the end of that battle, in the Planet X storyline.

Soon thereafter, his twin brother Shen surfaced and briefly joined the X-Men. This Xorn brother was de-powered during M-Day.

Because Xorn's powers were psychokinetic, and his personality was so strong, it basically remained an almost disembodied sentient thing among the big ball of mutant energy. When that energy got sucked down to Earth by Michael and all absorbed by him, Xorn was the dominant personality in the mix, and that's what drove him towards Genosha and Magneto.

Look... sometimes it's ok to just let plotlines get forgotten, especially when they suck.  They used to do it all the time in the X-books.  Did anyone at Marvel involved with this ever stop and look at what they were doing and say "you know, this shit really isn't making for a good story."

Dear Fucking God, that's awful. That's just a goddamned travesty. Of course, it isn't like Xorn wasn't horribly misused after the Morrison run, but to put this kind of explanation forward is just criminal. I've yet to read Avengers #20, but if it's as you say it is, that's awful, especially when you consider how badly the X-Men are being written nowadays.

The Cassandra Nova stuff in Astonishing isn't making much sense either.

Llava
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Reply #123 on: June 26, 2006, 09:14:55 AM

I picked up some X-Men comics recently.  The whole Apocalypse arc.  Sunfire becomes Famine, Gambit becomes Death, how could this NOT be cool?  It's a hole in one.

Well, it's not cool.  The writing is not quite as bad as Ben Raab writing,  but it's up there.

The art is pretty good for the most part (don't like what he did with Rogue, but oh well, I don't like Rogue anyways) but the writing just brings the whole book down.  People do inexplicable acts without motivation.  The whole thing feels extremely rushed, like they either didn't have time to make it make sense or they didn't know how to make it make sense so they figured they'd make it FAST.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
HaemishM
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Reply #124 on: June 26, 2006, 09:38:09 AM

No, that's not it. Peter Milligan is a good writer, but you wouldn't know it from any of the X-Men stuff he's written. It's all been awful, just craptcaularly bad. No one acts within character, and they just do things for no reason whatsoever.

The whole Apocalypse thing? How could it not be cool? Because Apocalypse has always been a terrible character. I've never liked him, and the whole "turn X-Men into horseman" thing has been a crutch for writers whose pet characters have lost all fan interest. Angel, now Gambit and Sunfire. Total shit. How writers can't find something interesting to do with Sunfire is beyond me.

HaemishM
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Reply #125 on: June 26, 2006, 01:46:46 PM

I have now read issue #20.

This story was about 20 kinds of bad wrongness. How did Mike Deodato's art descend into such lumpy shit? How can any of the Marvel writers involved in the Xorn or Magneto stuff ever look themselves in the face again? It's almost as if the Marvel folks just do not want to acknowledge the Morrison era of X-Men at all, unless it is to deride the work, shit on the characters and make a mockery of the entire run. The fact that it doesn't even really EXPLAIN the whole Xorn thing which Quesada's quote illuminated above is just atrocious.

Margalis
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Reply #126 on: June 26, 2006, 04:16:40 PM

In the X-Books in particular there is a whole lot of "let's totally disregard what this last guy did on the book - I'll kill off x,y and z and bring back a,b and c". The editors are to blame there.

As far as this Apoc stuff goes, didn't they just do that a little while ago, having X-Men serve as his horsemen?

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Velorath
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Reply #127 on: June 26, 2006, 05:58:13 PM

As far as this Apoc stuff goes, didn't they just do that a little while ago, having X-Men serve as his horsemen?

Kinda.  If I remember right, they had Wolverine as a horseman but it ended up really being a Skrull or somesuch.
Llava
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Reply #128 on: June 26, 2006, 06:02:35 PM

Wolverine and Angel have both been Death.

Caliban, who was sort of a member of the X-Men, was once Death and, later, Pestilence.

Aside from that, no it hasn't been done.  And the Angel & Caliban thing was a long time ago.

What they have done, though, is display who could have been what in several alternate realities.  Recently, for instance, Nicieza briefly showed an alternate reality in which Cable became War.

So X-people who've been horsemen, by horseman-

Death: Angel, Wolverine, Gambit, Caliban
Pestilence: Polaris, Caliban
Famine: Sunfire
War: None (though the Hulk was once War)

I don't think Apocalypse as a character is incredibly interesting, but as a device he works really well.  When he's treated more as a force of nature than as an individual, we see how other characters react to him and some interesting stories can be told.  But I don't need to hear about Apocalypse's tortured love life.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Velorath
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Reply #129 on: June 26, 2006, 06:10:03 PM

I have now read issue #20.

This story was about 20 kinds of bad wrongness. How did Mike Deodato's art descend into such lumpy shit? How can any of the Marvel writers involved in the Xorn or Magneto stuff ever look themselves in the face again? It's almost as if the Marvel folks just do not want to acknowledge the Morrison era of X-Men at all, unless it is to deride the work, shit on the characters and make a mockery of the entire run. The fact that it doesn't even really EXPLAIN the whole Xorn thing which Quesada's quote illuminated above is just atrocious.

Xorn:  "You know who we are.  SAY IT!!  SAY OUR NAME!!"

God that reads like bad porn dialogue.
Llava
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Reply #130 on: June 26, 2006, 06:22:09 PM

Y'know... I think I could write comic books.

I wouldn't be a Morrison, Moore or Ellis, but fuck I'd be at least as good as that Bendis hack.

I think I just called myself a hack.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Velorath
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Reply #131 on: June 29, 2006, 09:29:21 PM

With the bad taste of issue 20 still in my mouth, issue 21 is now on stands with the added bonus of being a Civil War tie-in and the first part of New Avengers Disassembled.  What this means in practice is we get a book taking place before Civil War #2 so it doesn't really advance any storylines beyond what we've already seen.  Technically I guess those interested in a Civil War tie-in might feel like the story is taking a step back.  Taken as an issue of New Avengers this issue focuses on Cap and thus ends up reading like a 2nd rate Captain America book for people already reading Brubaker's stuff.  Working with the setup provided over in the main Civil War series we get a very much out of character Henry Pym.  No motivation is given for him being on the pro-registration side, but then again Cap's motivation seems to have something to do with protecting the freedom for American Superheroes to dole out anonymous vigilante justice.  But it all gives Cap and Falcon an excuse to fight against Pym and SHIELD agents which I suppose is more or less the reason Civil War exists in the first place.

It doesn't hit the depths of the Collective arc (or even the Ronin and Sentry arcs for that matter), so I guess that's something at least.
HaemishM
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Reply #132 on: July 04, 2006, 11:25:21 AM

Just read #21. I used to love Chaykin's work, but lately his stuff just leaves me cold. All the men have lantern jaws you could shelve a beer on. If Falcon wasn't colored brown and have a beard, he and Cap would be indistinguishable from Henry Pym. Of course, the writing is routinely awful. I think Bendis wants to do Dark Knight Returns again, only with Captain America. Or redo Watchmen with Marvel characters. I suppoe we'll have 5 or 6 with Cap recruiting the heroes he has in CW #2 individually. So 5 or 6 issues of waste of space, like the rest of the series.

Velorath
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Reply #133 on: July 11, 2006, 12:33:41 AM

Just read #21. I used to love Chaykin's work, but lately his stuff just leaves me cold. All the men have lantern jaws you could shelve a beer on. If Falcon wasn't colored brown and have a beard, he and Cap would be indistinguishable from Henry Pym. Of course, the writing is routinely awful. I think Bendis wants to do Dark Knight Returns again, only with Captain America. Or redo Watchmen with Marvel characters. I suppoe we'll have 5 or 6 with Cap recruiting the heroes he has in CW #2 individually. So 5 or 6 issues of waste of space, like the rest of the series.

If I remember correctly each issue of New Avengers Disassembled is supposed to focus on a different character.  They've mentioned who is the focus of each issue but other than Luke Cage being next I forget who and in what order.
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