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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  Gaming  |  Topic: Hasbro/WotC tries to destroy D&D in one fell swoop 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Hasbro/WotC tries to destroy D&D in one fell swoop  (Read 4804 times)
Comstar
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on: January 10, 2023, 12:41:01 PM

There's going to be a short D&D TV series on Paramount+, though who knows if D&D will survive it's current XK-class possible extinction level event.

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BobtheSomething
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Reply #1 on: January 10, 2023, 03:31:51 PM

What D&D extinction event?  Did people finally find out other RPG’s exist?
Threash
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Reply #2 on: January 10, 2023, 03:56:02 PM

I assume he means this.

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Samwise
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Reply #3 on: January 10, 2023, 03:56:22 PM

They're basically getting rid of the OGL (not really, but putting so many restrictions on it that they just might as well not have it).  Which, if you remember D&D before the OGL, is... well, whatever.  They're shooting themselves in the foot IMO because all that OGL content helps drive sales of their core books, but their accumulated brand strength is such that I don't think this one misstep is going to suddenly topple them.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Trippy
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Reply #4 on: January 10, 2023, 04:03:46 PM

WotC is about to release a new D&D licensing agreement -- OGL 1.1. Among the many horrible things* in it they are trying to invalidate OGL 1.0a, despite that license explicitly saying it is "perpetual". If they succeed they will destroy the 3rd party eco-system that has been built up around D&D 3rd and 5th Editions that were released under OGL 1.0a. 4th Edition had it's own much more restrictive license so very few 3rd party companies released anything for that system.

* One of the horrible things is that in 1.1:

Quote
You own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.

So basically if WotC wants to take your content and resell it they can and they don't have to pay you royalties for it.

Edit: this is the leaked OGL 1.1 text: http://ogl.battlezoo.com
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 04:06:37 PM by Trippy »
Samwise
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Reply #5 on: January 10, 2023, 04:07:27 PM

ah yes, this must be some new definition of the word "own" I wasn't previously familiar with

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
BobtheSomething
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Reply #6 on: January 10, 2023, 04:12:10 PM

That’s some 2012 Games Workshop level customer alienation they’re aiming for.
Khaldun
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Reply #7 on: January 10, 2023, 04:50:42 PM

It's the definition of own that prioritizes "self-own" in the social media sense.
Rendakor
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Reply #8 on: January 10, 2023, 06:44:58 PM

Yea, it's completely fucked, and removes any iota of interest I had in checking 5.5E or 6E or whatever it was going to be called. If I ever move on from 3.5, it will be to PF1, even if I have to hoist the black flag because WotC sends Paizo a C&D or some bullshit.

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Trippy
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Reply #9 on: January 10, 2023, 07:22:33 PM

Tebonas
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Reply #10 on: January 11, 2023, 03:08:31 AM

Well, suddenly "One-Dnd" sounds way more sinister.

But how they can invalidate an already issued license for existing content is beyond my legal understanding.
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Reply #11 on: January 11, 2023, 05:04:52 AM

So One-DND is going to be 5.5 Edition from the sounds of it?

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Threash
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Reply #12 on: January 11, 2023, 05:36:37 AM

Well, suddenly "One-Dnd" sounds way more sinister.

But how they can invalidate an already issued license for existing content is beyond my legal understanding.

It easy, they have way more money so they can bully little people until they win.

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Tebonas
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Reply #13 on: January 11, 2023, 06:00:08 AM

Isn't it equally easy to say "Go fuck yourself, we use Pathfinder 2e for our new stuff" though? Everybody has to crunch their own numbers, but I suspect losing 100% or your old sales hurts less than losing 25% of your new sales.
Soulflame
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Reply #14 on: January 11, 2023, 07:15:06 AM

Not if Pathfinder 2.0 doesn't exist.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #15 on: January 11, 2023, 09:43:46 AM

I saw a few Youtube videos popping up claiming Critical Role may be asked to pay Hasbro now or something. I didn't watch them but man, if they destroy Critical Role the nerd backlash will probably be intense. I suspect Mathew Mercer would just switch to Monte Cook's system or something and keep going.

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Tebonas
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Reply #16 on: January 11, 2023, 09:50:03 AM

So, I read a little more about it and it seems despite not using any of the WoTC content, Paizo still decided to go with the OGL, which will be invalidated.

Well, that really sucks. I hope Paizo will bring out a 3rd edition of Pathfinder so that there exists a high profile alternative to those fucktards.
Trippy
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Reply #17 on: January 11, 2023, 10:24:38 AM

So One-DND is going to be 5.5 Edition from the sounds of it?
That’s what the backwards compatibility claim implies.
Threash
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Reply #18 on: January 11, 2023, 11:30:53 AM

Isn't it equally easy to say "Go fuck yourself, we use Pathfinder 2e for our new stuff" though? Everybody has to crunch their own numbers, but I suspect losing 100% or your old sales hurts less than losing 25% of your new sales.

No, it costs you tens of thousands in lawyer fees every time.

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Tebonas
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Reply #19 on: January 11, 2023, 11:44:16 AM

I know the US has a shitty legal system, but even there you can't sue somebody for not using your license in a new product - yet.
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Reply #20 on: January 11, 2023, 11:46:54 AM

I have to imagine that third parties were always aware of this kind of thing as an existential risk, and that some kind of contingency plan exists where they can quickly crank out new editions of their content that has everything problematic stripped.

Like I said, some of us remember the world before the OGL; companies like Mongoose did some kind of tricky thing where they wrote their material to be compatible with AD&D 2E without including anything that might be seen as infringing in the material that they sold themselves (they didn't even refer to the core books by their actual names).  Obviously the OGL made life a lot easier for all concerned (including WotC/Hasbro) by allowing everyone to dispense with that nonsense, but getting rid of it isn't an extinction-level event.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Threash
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Reply #21 on: January 11, 2023, 12:34:37 PM

I know the US has a shitty legal system, but even there you can't sue somebody for not using your license in a new product - yet.

No, that is the problem, you can sue somebody for literally anything and nothing. You can't WIN, but that still costs the other party money.

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Soulflame
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Reply #22 on: January 11, 2023, 12:50:04 PM

I know the US has a shitty legal system, but even there you can't sue somebody for not using your license in a new product - yet.

No, that is the problem, you can sue somebody for literally anything and nothing. You can't WIN, but that still costs the other party money.
Exactly.  Hasbro has enough money to drag out legal fights for years, and they're counting on much smaller orgs to run out of money to fight legal battles long before that.
Samwise
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Reply #23 on: January 11, 2023, 01:10:56 PM

If that's the way you're looking at it, changing the OGL is a complete non-factor, since they could just pester other companies with nuisance lawsuits regardless.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Khaldun
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Reply #24 on: January 11, 2023, 04:19:50 PM

Dungeons and Dragons: Dishonor Among Intellectual Property Oligarchs
Rendakor
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Reply #25 on: January 11, 2023, 04:28:56 PM

So One-DND is going to be 5.5 Edition from the sounds of it?
That’s what the backwards compatibility claim implies.

Hence the "5.5 or 6" comment. If it's actually backwards compatible, everyone's gonna call it 5.5E. Less so if some things are vaguely sort of backwards compatible.

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Comstar
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Reply #26 on: January 12, 2023, 11:51:26 AM


Defending the Galaxy, from the Scum of the Universe, with nothing but a flashlight and a tshirt. We need tanks Boo, lots of tanks!
Trippy
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Reply #27 on: January 12, 2023, 12:50:59 PM

Hasbro has been actively destroying the goodwill built up over many years by Wizards of the Coast in the Magic: The Gathering community for increased (short term) profits the last few years. It's unsurprising to those who follow the MtG scene that they've now turned their attention to D&D and are trying to do the same there.
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Reply #28 on: January 12, 2023, 01:54:11 PM

it's a disaster
Sky
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Reply #29 on: January 12, 2023, 01:59:41 PM

Tbf it's all been downhill since 1st ed  why so serious?
Khaldun
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Reply #30 on: January 12, 2023, 03:18:49 PM

I've read a couple of histories now of Gygax, TSR, etc., so let's just say that it began as a kind of glorious but weird mess and then at some point tipped into being an amiable disaster a bit like John Romero working on Daikatana and then tipped into being a parable of culture clash between corporations and then became kind of a success story about how good management can fix bad decisions and now it's come around to being another parable of late-stage capitalist failure. It's kind of the American Dream: all the bad, all the good.
Velorath
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Reply #31 on: January 12, 2023, 03:53:05 PM

There was that Slaying the Dragon book that came out last year that was fairly decent.
Khaldun
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Reply #32 on: January 12, 2023, 04:53:54 PM

Yeah, that's one of the best, a bit gossipy maybe but that's ok.
Khaldun
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Reply #33 on: January 13, 2023, 07:09:00 AM

I read somewhere that a lot of the early D&D artists' original work for TSR was lost in one of the later reorganizations--likely destroyed. That's heart-breaking.
Trippy
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Reply #34 on: January 13, 2023, 10:47:40 AM

WotC has begun the walk back process after the backlash, scraping 1.1 and working on a 2.0 that excludes some of the most egregious parts of the 1.1 draft including royalties and effectively taking joint ownership of all your work, but unless WotC makes 2.0 explicitly irrevocable I doubt they’ll be able bring back everybody who is now thinking of alternatives since Hasbro has made it perfectly clear they are willing to alert their deals if it suits their purposes and you should be praying they don’t alter them again.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1423-an-update-on-the-open-game-license-ogl

Edit: not a draft, I forgot people were being asked to sign the 1.1 version
« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 12:31:15 PM by Trippy »
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