Loki

[Khaldun]

The two of them took the time to say "I can make illusions multiple ways" and "I can control minds" and they've already both done the key thing that they say makes illusions and control minds. If you don't like stuff where illusions get made and minds get controlled, ok, but it's not a sudden and unexpected intrusion into a plot in this case. It's like Superman saying "I am strong and invulnerable" and saying "I hope he doesn't punch a building and walk out of the ruins unscathed, because that's such a cliche".

[MahrinSkel]

I just replayed that scene with the broken macguffin about 10 times. There's a quiet "end illusion" sound when Loki turns to go talk to her. The macguffin is fine. He's going to catch up to her at a bar or something, get the expository admission he's really wanting, and then open a portal.

--Dave

[Raguel]

I have no words for this episode except to say I really loved it. The fight scenes were just 80s tv bad but screw that, it's great.

There's an after credit scene; don't miss it.

[eldaec]

Only thing didn't like is that the pruning right before the credits removed any doubt about whether the first surprise pruning of episode was going to stick. Also I don't understand where all the crazy timeline splitting at the end of episode 2 went to.

I'm very glad that almost every terrible suggestion made in this thread and elsewhere was wrong. Including my own.

[Threash]

I think at this point we should have enough trust to know they won't pull dumb bullshit like that or the whole pulling out a brand new villain out their ass in the last few episodes thing everyone seems to expect.

[Sky]

The two of them took the time to say "I can make illusions multiple ways" and "I can control minds" and they've already both done the key thing that they say makes illusions and control minds. If you don't like stuff where illusions get made and minds get controlled, ok, but it's not a sudden and unexpected intrusion into a plot in this case. It's like Superman saying "I am strong and invulnerable" and saying "I hope he doesn't punch a building and walk out of the ruins unscathed, because that's such a cliche".

Thus far they have been surprisingly good about this in Loki, despite illusion being his jam.

I was talking to eldaec about tropes we don't like. And I mentioned how well this show is handling a trope I don't like.

So...?

[Khaldun]

Well, that was good. Still think a show about characters who lie and misdirect might have a trick up its sleeve, but maybe the "pay no attention to the men behind the curtain" moment is enough of a misdirect in that respect.

Also, Crocodile Loki? Much respect.

[HaemishM]

I think at this point we should have enough trust to know they won't pull dumb bullshit like that or the whole pulling out a brand new villain out their ass in the last few episodes thing everyone seems to expect.

I saw nothing in that episode to make me think there isn't a surprise "villain behind the curtain." I mean, we literally got our Wizard of Oz moment.

EDIT: Also:

[Khaldun]

My wife's response: "Why is that Loki wearing Depends?"

[Threash]

I think at this point we should have enough trust to know they won't pull dumb bullshit like that or the whole pulling out a brand new villain out their ass in the last few episodes thing everyone seems to expect.

I saw nothing in that episode to make me think there isn't a surprise "villain behind the curtain." I mean, we literally got our Wizard of Oz moment.

EDIT: Also:

The only villain we are going to get is Ravonna.

[MahrinSkel]

I think it will be clear there's somebody behind the curtain, but they either won't be revealed or it will be explicitly ambiguous that they might be another misdirect like the robot Time Keepers.

--Dave

[MediumHigh]

Looks like I was right but not sure if the show goes uphill form here.

[Threash]

Looks like I was right but not sure if the show goes uphill form here.

It did.

[Abagadro]

That was great. Richard Grant is always awesome when given something interesting to do.

[Khaldun]

Felt like that was Hogwarts behind the curtain.

Look, thematically, the best idea would be for it to be another Loki (seemingly) as a bid to divide the two Lokis, but for that at the last second to turn out to be yet another misdirect/lie by some OTHER liar or manipulator.

Immortus is classically an absolutely operatic liar in Marvel's comics history whom writers have used as a kind of hopeless continuity whore--it's almost a bloodsport now at Marvel where successive writers have to reveal that the last time we had all of Immortus' lies finally clarified we find out that all the clarifications are just lies of another kind. So maybe?

I mean, I'm not fucking nuts this time that the series is INVITING us to think there's a bad guy behind it all, right? It's inviting the nerds to shout KANG! IMMORTUS!

[Threash]

I mean, I'm not fucking nuts this time that the series is INVITING us to think there's a bad guy behind it all, right? It's inviting the nerds to shout KANG! IMMORTUS!

Introducing a new villain that only the 27 nerds who read comic books know about in the very last episode is such horrible writing I just can't imagine how anyone thinks its a possibility. There's no Mephisto, there's no Kang, there's no Immortus, it's Loki. Probably not even another Loki but ours from the future.

[Phildo]

Could be one of a handful of other villains from earlier films, too.  Why not Thanos hanging out at the end of time with Dormammu?

[MahrinSkel]

I mean, I'm not fucking nuts this time that the series is INVITING us to think there's a bad guy behind it all, right? It's inviting the nerds to shout KANG! IMMORTUS!

Introducing a new villain that only the 27 nerds who read comic books know about in the very last episode is such horrible writing I just can't imagine how anyone thinks its a possibility. There's no Mephisto, there's no Kang, there's no Immortus, it's Loki. Probably not even another Loki but ours from the future.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. The first thing every Loki variant (except Sylvie) thinks of is "Let's take over the TVA!" If one of them had succeeded, what would that look like?

The "surprising yet inevitable betrayal" riot of Loki's kind of has to be important.

--Dave

[Velorath]

Somewhat unique among the D+ shows so far, it sounds like Loki was planned to go beyond one season. There hasn't been any official announcement but there were reports of S2 pre-production starting at the end of last year as well as some other details that suggested another season is going to happen and was planned from the start. This maybe gives them a little freedom that they wouldn't necessarily have if they were just making a 4-5 hour long movie. They could leave things on a cliffhanger here or introducing characters or ideas that aren't going to get fleshed out until next season.

[Khaldun]

In this episode, you got a monstrous cloud named Alioth devouring people in a void before the end of time. In Marvel Comics, he's a rival to Kang (and keeps Kang from conquering all time periods). Is that bad writing? Did anybody mention "Alioth" earlier? Shouldn't people be complaining that suddenly here's this new dangerous enemy that wasn't mentioned before at all?

Look, Kang is actually cast and is in an upcoming movie.

The bad guy so far that we've seen--and we've seen she is bad in the sense of treacherous--is a character whose name is strongly associated with Kang in the comics. Why do that if it doesn't mean anything at all? Just call her Imperious Bichoff or whatever.

The Time Keepers were set up as bad guys and they turned out to be the Wizard of Oz's phony projection. We just haven't seen the man behind the curtain yet.

There's certainly a lovely symmetry if it turns out it's another Loki (with maybe a post-credits scene that shows that yet again that Loki is actually the flunky for another bad guy, e.g., Kang). But since the whole show has been driven by "who set up the TVA" and "the seeming bosses are just a false front", I can't see how anybody could say "introducing the actual boss behind it all would be bad writing because nobody expects that". The whole show has been built around the expectation of a hidden manipulator.

[Velorath]

In this episode, you got a monstrous cloud named Alioth devouring people in a void before the end of time. In Marvel Comics, he's a rival to Kang (and keeps Kang from conquering all time periods). Is that bad writing? Did anybody mention "Alioth" earlier? Shouldn't people be complaining that suddenly here's this new dangerous enemy that wasn't mentioned before at all?

No, because Alioth isn't really a character, it's a plot device. It doesn't need a backstory or motivations explained. It doesn't have a plan we need to understand. It's an entropic force that has a name and occasionally a face. It's sole purpose here is as an obstacle.

[Velorath]

One other thing is that given that we know Kang is going to be in the next Ant Man movie in 2023, whatever they may or may not do with him here probably can't end with him being defeated by a couple Loki. In theory he should be getting built up as a threat, rather than people watching Quantumania and thinking "oh, it's that guy who got his plans blown blown up in Loki a couple years back". Given that I think it works better to hint at him, and possibly even mention his name, but not necessarily outright introduce him at this point.

[eldaec]

All three of these so far have consistently produced a more satisfying plot than anything I've guessed or anyone else has written here. So I've stopped guessing.

[eldaec]

That was great. Richard Grant is always awesome when given something interesting to do.

This was the best part. They'd toss him a mediocre line and it would come out awesome.

[Threash]

That was great. Richard Grant is always awesome when given something interesting to do.

This was the best part. They'd toss him a mediocre line and it would come out awesome.

Hell, they tossed him the goofiest fucking costume in comic book history and he made that shit look bad ass.

[Velorath]

Good easter eggs in the episode also with stuff like Frog Thor and the Thanoscopter.

[HaemishM]

I had to go back to make sure that was Frog Thor, but I cheered. Richard Grant was just the best. Gator Loki has just convinced me that it's well past time for a Howard the Duck series.

There is no reason whatsoever to think they want show Kang in the final scene or even in a bumper credit scene, without ever naming him. I mean, they did it with Thanos - did we even hear his name prior to Infinity War? Comic geeks knew who he was but regular people didn't, and they had no problem introducing him without even the slightest real explanation.

It still wouldn't surprise me if there is a Loki behind the TVA, as it would certainly fit with the series' themes. The biggest question would be where would that Loki have gotten the technology to do it?

[Khaldun]

Thanos was named (and shown) at substantially greater length in the first Guardians of the Galaxy. Which would be another example of what I would guess Velorath would regard as bad writing--Thanos comes up as the prime mover behind what Ronan the Accuser was doing, his name gets invoked a few times (by Drax, by Gamora) but Thanos' motivations are at best murky--considering his power levels and his direct actions in Infinity War, it's hard to figure out what the fuck he was doing with Loki or Ronan, really, and we don't know anything in Guardians about what's driving his interest in any of this beyond wanting the Power Stone.

Though considering how incoherent Ronan's motivations are as well, I guess I'd agree it's bad writing. Good thing that Guardians is so much fun on the protagonist side, because Ronan is basically an inert slab of meat who is driven by rage over something we know nothing about (a war between the Kree and Xandar--at least we actually see Xandar in the flick, we have no idea what the Kree are like or who they are).

[Velorath]

I would agree that the writing of pretty much all the villains in GotG was the sloppiest part of an otherwise great movie.

[eldaec]

Captain Marvel makes Ronan a little better.

[eldaec]

I wonder if they might link the last episode directly into What If.

It really isn't their style so far - but the premise of both shows would be obvious link.

[MahrinSkel]

At this point, I've just stopped guessing what they're going to do. I've been wrong far more than right on this show.

--Dave

[eldaec]

At this point, I've just stopped guessing what they're going to do. I've been wrong far more than right on this show.

--Dave

I told myself that, then I watched the what if trailer and suddenly thought Aha!

And am probably still wrong.

[MediumHigh]

I'm pretty sure its another loki behind the TVA

[Khaldun]

It definitely makes thematic/dramatic sense for it to be a seemingly successful Loki who made the whole thing to just keep other Lokis in line. (In fact, that would be a clever borrowing of the whole Kang-is-eliminating-other-Kangs storylines from the comics.)

And then at the last second for that Loki to be just another stooge for another off-stage ultimate bad guy could be even more delicious--revealing another flaw in Loki's character that hasn't really been talked about so far in Mobius' dissection of it, which is that he tends to second banana while pretending he's in charge, or when he's in charge he just does trivial or confusing stuff with no real goals.