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Author Topic: Loki  (Read 26834 times)
eldaec
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Reply #35 on: June 18, 2021, 09:59:24 AM

Put me in the camp that just doesn't see how they handle a variant Thanos or Hulk. Come to think of it, wouldn't Gamora be a variant now since she's from 2014?

They covered this in a line of dialog.

The endgame time travel is baked into the 'sacred timeline', it was 'supposed' to happen.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2021, 10:34:34 AM by eldaec »

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Khaldun
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Reply #36 on: June 18, 2021, 03:43:03 PM

The thing is, given the premise, I'm not clear on where all those Loki variants are coming from. We've only seen ONE source of variant-creating events, which is the events of Endgame. If Gamora's time-jumping is "supposed to be" and this Loki is not, how come? Gamora's death was as heart-rendering a source of motivation for the "supposed to be" characters as Loki's death was for Thor. I'm sort of surprised this Loki hasn't tried that argument (which of course is another tip-off that the TVA isn't what it appears to be). But at this point we also have zero other possible ways variants could be created except for the Time Gem. So if there's a zillion Loki variants, how come? Where's that coming from?

I kind of hope the whole thing turns out to be a con game meant to get Prime Loki to do something he wouldn't have done otherwise.
eldaec
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Reply #37 on: June 18, 2021, 04:29:54 PM

Loki has made the argument that the choice of which variant is correct is arbitrary already, and it is clear he regards the sacred timeline as the sort of con that he would pull. He views the TVA has taking away exactly the freedom he repeatedly says regular people cannot deal with.

Moebius reacts in way that I think is meant to talk to his character - either it is bouncing off his brainwashing, or he realises the TVA is bullshit he is smart enough not to engage the question.

As for how splits happen, universe is a big place I guess. But I read it as mostly the spontaneous creation of an alternate timelines.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
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Khaldun
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Reply #38 on: June 18, 2021, 05:22:40 PM

I can talk my way into it. Prime Loki maybe is enough of a fucking wizard that he's already done some magics in his life that have created variants--he's tried to absorb the Hulk, he's changed genders, etc. and he doesn't remember that he did it because the TVA has pruned those branches such that he doesn't even know it. At the very least as soon as this got sold as producing order, you understood why Loki would be Variant Champion #1. But yeah, as eldaec points out, Loki's speech to the crowd in Avengers indicates that he doesn't think *most* people should be able to act chaotically; "you are meant to be ruled". So maybe that's the con--getting Loki to stooge for someone by reminding him of why he said that, given that every other time we've seen him, he's really not been all that into ruling people in the sense of making them do things to satisfy some purpose. As Fake-Odin, he was really a rather indulgent ruler of Asgard, he just staged self-aggrandizing entertainments and had a generally good time.
Threash
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Reply #39 on: June 18, 2021, 05:48:52 PM

The thing is, given the premise, I'm not clear on where all those Loki variants are coming from. We've only seen ONE source of variant-creating events, which is the events of Endgame. If Gamora's time-jumping is "supposed to be" and this Loki is not, how come? Gamora's death was as heart-rendering a source of motivation for the "supposed to be" characters as Loki's death was for Thor. I'm sort of surprised this Loki hasn't tried that argument (which of course is another tip-off that the TVA isn't what it appears to be). But at this point we also have zero other possible ways variants could be created except for the Time Gem. So if there's a zillion Loki variants, how come? Where's that coming from?

I kind of hope the whole thing turns out to be a con game meant to get Prime Loki to do something he wouldn't have done otherwise.


I mean, I'm pretty sure we are supposed to think the whole sacred timeline thing is absolute bullshit at this point. At best it's an evil cult, most likely a plot by someone to control the universe. I don't think at any point while hearing what the TVA does and how it works you are supposed to think "ok yeah, that sounds legit". They are blatantly the big bad here.

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TheWalrus
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Reply #40 on: June 18, 2021, 06:06:39 PM

I thought the line about how many Loki variants there were was just meant to illustrate how chaotic Loki is compared to literally ever other being in existence.

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Khaldun
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Reply #41 on: June 18, 2021, 07:34:55 PM

Well, he is the only being with serious power of some kind that we've seen that doesn't always do the same schtick. The Collector collects; the Grandmaster stages gladiatorial fights. Ego wants to be the only thing in creation. Thanos wants to eliminate half of everything living in the universe. Surtur wants to burn Asgard down. The Dark Elves want the existing universe wiped out. 

Odin, Loki and Thor actually change their motivations over time, so it's not just Loki. But Loki especially.
HaemishM
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Reply #42 on: June 18, 2021, 08:41:20 PM


Yeah I think I caught on in Episode 2.


Draegan
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Reply #43 on: June 19, 2021, 08:18:05 AM

The whole TVA is just a cover for some plot by Kang. Wizard of Oz type of shit.
Threash
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Reply #44 on: June 19, 2021, 08:54:58 AM

I think by now we should know they are not going to whip out some completely previously unknown big bad out of nowhere. It might be Kang, but if it is we won't find out during this show. This is going to be Loki vs the TVA and that's it, the main big bad is probably the San Junipero girl.

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HaemishM
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Reply #45 on: June 19, 2021, 10:09:46 AM

Revonna Renslayer is literally Kang's wife in some appearances. We may not see Kang himself in this show, but the TVA is definitely his show. Even having the MinuteMen look like future stormtroopers is probably quite deliberate.

eldaec
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Reply #46 on: June 19, 2021, 10:29:52 AM

The whole TVA is just a cover for some plot by Kang. Wizard of Oz type of shit.

Mobius pretty much told us this when Loki asked what happens at the end of the timeline.

The TVA and the sacred timeline is a method for achieving an end that hasn't been shared with the TVA as yet.

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Khaldun
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Reply #47 on: June 19, 2021, 11:40:01 AM

It's just possible that the TVA and the Timekeepers are what they were in the comics, which is Kang's enemy (and also humanity's enemy, in that they fear the spread of superpowered humanity throughout the universe). Revonna is sometimes Kang's wife, she's sometimes his unattainably tragically dead romantic obsession, and she's sometimes his enemy. So there are twists and turns possible here.
HaemishM
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Reply #48 on: June 19, 2021, 11:47:14 AM

Oh, I'm 100% sure it'll not follow any of the comics exactly and expect at least one surprise that has nothing to do with the source material. I do expect Kang to be involved some way, shape or form, even if it's just a Thanos on a rock in space appearance. I wouldn't even be surprised if he doesn't show at all, but is just merely mentioned and not even by name. I suspect at least one of the set of variants they are hunting down are all Kang's, since he spent a lot of time in the comics hunting his own "inferior" versions.

Draegan
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Reply #49 on: June 20, 2021, 08:47:19 AM

I'm more curious how the multiverse shows up in future movies like the Eternals.

If the multiverse isn't in the Eternals I'm going to be disappointed a bit.
HaemishM
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Reply #50 on: June 20, 2021, 02:38:11 PM

I honestly just have no read whatsoever on what the Eternals is going to end up being. The trailer was pretty but absolutely bereft of useful information of any kind. As amazing as both WandaVision and Loki have been post-Endgame, I'm struggling to see where they go with the universe minus 2 of the big 3 Avengers.

Khaldun
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Reply #51 on: June 20, 2021, 07:52:42 PM

I'm with Haemish. I still can't even figure out what the Eternals is meant to do in the tightly planned MCU. It doesn't feel to me like it should have any multiverse shit in it but who knows.
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Reply #52 on: June 20, 2021, 08:05:04 PM

Don't get me wrong though, there are few titles that I wouldn't go watch from the MCU trailer unseen. They have certainly earned a little faith that whatever the hell they have planned, it will be entertaining.

Khaldun
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Reply #53 on: June 20, 2021, 08:08:45 PM

Sure. Their worst movie to day has been at least modestly watchable, so that's a pretty amazing run.
eldaec
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Reply #54 on: June 21, 2021, 12:11:06 AM

Sure. Their worst movie to day has been at least modestly watchable, so that's a pretty amazing run.


Started rewatching MCU films on bit of a whim. There is a really bad dip around IM2, Thor2, IM3 all of which I honestly couldn't finish.

It is still an amazing run. But there are films they only got away with out of individual performances and banked goodwill.

Relevant to this thread, Thor 2 might have been OK if it had had far less Padme and Thor in it, and much more Loki.

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #55 on: June 21, 2021, 03:40:23 AM

Sure. Their worst movie to day has been at least modestly watchable, so that's a pretty amazing run.


Started rewatching MCU films on bit of a whim. There is a really bad dip around IM2, Thor2, IM3 all of which I honestly couldn't finish.

It is still an amazing run. But there are films they only got away with out of individual performances and banked goodwill.

Relevant to this thread, Thor 2 might have been OK if it had had far less Padme and Thor in it, and much more Loki.

I enjoyed IM3. IM2 is....well, it's a movie. And it's better than almost any DCEU movie. Thor 2, I like the parts with Thor and Loki but once Loki "dies" the movie takes a big dip in my opinion.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Draegan
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Reply #56 on: June 21, 2021, 06:00:18 AM

I'm with Haemish. I still can't even figure out what the Eternals is meant to do in the tightly planned MCU. It doesn't feel to me like it should have any multiverse shit in it but who knows.


Eternals is probably some more world building with a fun story if I had to guess. It'll lay down the ground work for eternals, deviants, and celestials and who they are. Giving the viewers a glimpse of where the next big bad is coming from.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #57 on: June 21, 2021, 05:27:15 PM

Yeah, it's going to be an MCU cosmology primer (Celestials, First Firmament, Cosmic level powers like Galactus at the periphery).

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Reply #58 on: June 22, 2021, 06:46:26 AM

I hope they wait til fantastic 4 in 2023 or 2024 to introduce silver surfer / Galactus. I don't think the universe can handle the power creep prior to that. It renders all current characters moot.
Sky
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Reply #59 on: June 22, 2021, 07:55:53 AM

It's not like Galactus is The Big Bad, the dude only eats worlds, individually. He's inexorable and kinda sucks if its your world, but as far as the universe goes, he's basically a bottom-feeder. Also, I'd imagine they want to do the Surfer with modern graphics, but I could also see them using Terrax or some other Herald.

As far as TVA and Hulk, c'mon. Dr Bruce 'Don't Vaporize Me Bro' Banner. Zap. And I think the drawer full of Infinity Stones show they can handle a Thanos-level power (at worst, they could slap together a gauntlet-style device many times over).

Eternals, meh. But the comment earlier about the Quantum Realm is nice, more Paul Rudd is always good, those are some of my favorite Marvel movies. I actually liked IM2 more than 3. I thought the Extremis thing was cheesy but Mickey Rourke and Sam Rockwell were great in IM2.
Draegan
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Reply #60 on: June 22, 2021, 08:06:05 AM

I liked IM2 more when I watched a few months ago more than when I did years ago.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #61 on: June 22, 2021, 12:53:56 PM

It's not like Galactus is The Big Bad, the dude only eats worlds, individually. He's inexorable and kinda sucks if its your world, but as far as the universe goes, he's basically a bottom-feeder. Also, I'd imagine they want to do the Surfer with modern graphics, but I could also see them using Terrax or some other Herald.

As far as TVA and Hulk, c'mon. Dr Bruce 'Don't Vaporize Me Bro' Banner. Zap. And I think the drawer full of Infinity Stones show they can handle a Thanos-level power (at worst, they could slap together a gauntlet-style device many times over).

Eternals, meh. But the comment earlier about the Quantum Realm is nice, more Paul Rudd is always good, those are some of my favorite Marvel movies. I actually liked IM2 more than 3. I thought the Extremis thing was cheesy but Mickey Rourke and Sam Rockwell were great in IM2.

Except that Thanos even without the stones is a huge threat. Look how he handed Iron Man, Thor and Captain America their asses without a single stone. I just don't see how these fairly incompetent time cops could handle a variant Thanos.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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Reply #62 on: June 22, 2021, 01:17:12 PM

He also was vulnerable to misdirection, even while wearing the full gauntlet. Someone who has knowledge of the time stream would find it pretty easy to find a vulnerable point. Dude wasn't exactly subtle or devious. It's not like Thor was the one to outwit the TVA here.

In the MCU, I think only Dr Strange has a chance against them. He's one of the few characters who has shown the wit level of Loki.
Khaldun
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Reply #63 on: June 22, 2021, 03:47:31 PM

This is the thing about cosmic Marvel (in the comics). The really big guns are:

a) Forces of nature or abstractions who act consistently and have some complicated constraints on what they will do even if their power is effectively infinite by the standards of ordinary superheroes; they mostly exist either to give superheroes clues or to remind the supers that there are scales of action and power that make them unimportant; if they really are going to do something super-bad there's usually a cosmic-level counter to it
b) Ultra-powerful beings with a glaring weakspot about a thousand times bigger than the exhaust port on the Death Star: they need some McGuffin to do their shit, they have tunnel vision on some crazy objective that anybody who has taken Psych 101 can fuck with them on, they'll quit if the one person they care about goes against them, there's one perfect counter-McGuffin that fucks them hard; (Thanos, Annihilus, Dormammu, Ego, Magus, etc.)
c) Really powerful beings who nevertheless can be beaten if the heroes really really work together and have a top-flight plan and maybe make a heroic sacrifice or two; (Kang, sometimes, when he's not being a stupid punching bag; Ultron)
d) Powerful bad guys who are nevertheless pretty on par with the heroes in power levels at least on paper but who are top threats all by themselves because they're smart and capable and deploy their power/influence/etc effectively (Dr. Doom; Loki though he's arguably "c")
e) Massified enemies who are scary only at scale (Skrulls, Kree, AIM, etc.) and only when the writers decide to play them as actual threats

What I think make the best stories? D), far and away. But I don't think the MCU has a great D film yet except maybe Loki in Avengers. They wanted Zemo in Civil War to be that but he just wasn't.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #64 on: June 22, 2021, 04:34:18 PM

I hope they wait til fantastic 4 in 2023 or 2024 to introduce silver surfer / Galactus. I don't think the universe can handle the power creep prior to that. It renders all current characters moot.
I think they'll name drop or Easter egg him, but not introduce him. He's way too powerful, as you point out, for any existing character to even survive meeting (unless Love and Thunder gives us Rune King Thor).

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Khaldun
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Reply #65 on: June 22, 2021, 08:17:47 PM

In the comics, Galactus generally is just a thing you don't fight (when you do, you get shut down right away)--you figure out something that makes him cry uncle, or you deal with the consequences of what he's doing. Ultimate Nullifier or the Watcher 'accidentally' preventing Reed Richards' mind from being read or whatever, or Nova evacuating a planet the Big G is eating and bargaining for a few more hours.

The only time Galactus has really been in a straight-up punchfest with superheroes was the famous Byrne story were he was basically almost dead of starvation plus ridiculous Infinity Gauntlet shit etc. plus the dumb Hickman thing about how Future Franklin Richards has Galactus as a Herald. If they're really going to do Galactus, it's not gonna be punching except or unless the Surfer or Terrax or whatever are used for that part of it. They're going to do some kind of McGuffin plot for G himself.
Threash
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Reply #66 on: June 23, 2021, 12:48:53 PM

Loved Sylvie but this felt like an episode of Dr Who.

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Tebonas
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Reply #67 on: June 23, 2021, 01:01:01 PM

You make that sound like it was a bad thing.
Threash
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Reply #68 on: June 23, 2021, 01:55:43 PM

It's certainly not bad, but it also wasn't as good as the masterful first two episodes.

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Velorath
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Reply #69 on: June 23, 2021, 03:00:22 PM

It's an episode centered around two dishonest and manipulative people who may or may not be the same person in some ways. I enjoyed it in that aside from some of what Loki said that we know to be true we don't really know the full extent to which each one is trying to manipulate the other. Did Loki get drunk or accidentally break the gizmo in his landing getting thrown off the train? I'm not so sure. Sylvie's description of how her enchanting works is consistent with what they've shown but it's very likely she's holding something back. They're both smart enough to put in a lot of truth with their lies so trying to figure out where they're being honest and where they're trying to manipulate is fun to me.

One thing I don't get, and is possibly tied to the TVA being a bit of a sham (or Sylvie maybe not actually being a Loki variant), is that if there's one sacred timeline how could there be such a divergent variant of Loki with that different of a history? This doesn't seem like someone who just turned left one day when they should have turned right. It seems like a case where there would be a completely divergent timeline. I don't want to think too deeply on the logistics of time travel in the MCU but I'm still not 100% sure of what the base premise that the TVA is putting forth even is.
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