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Author Topic: The Falcon and the Winter soldier  (Read 2902 times)
Velorath
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Reply #70 on: March 30, 2021, 02:42:49 AM

I don't think strength is the issue when it comes to throwing the shield since you could just handwave that away as Vibranium being lightweight. Now having the reflexes to accurately throw and catch it, that is a bit of a stretch, although really no more far-fetched than Hawkeye being able to hit pretty much anything he's aiming for with an arrow.
eldaec
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Reply #71 on: March 30, 2021, 04:01:42 AM

I could be miss-remembering this, but I thought the original implication in the First Captain America film was that the serum was effected by the persons personality.  Steve came out perfect because he was a good guy to the core

Yeah, this was the whole point of the selection process. Scientist guy and Peggy didn't care about how physically capable the candidate was because the serum would handle that.

I don't think strength is the issue when it comes to throwing the shield since you could just handwave that away as Vibranium being lightweight.

Reason this doesn't work for me is that it hits things like a 40 lb metal brick, not an ultimate Frisbee.


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Tebonas
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Reply #72 on: March 30, 2021, 05:01:07 AM

While I love this series, that is indeed a nitpick one can make. In the comics the Super Soldier Serum made Steve Rogers way smarter and thus he does on-the fly physics calculations to bounce his shield.

I take this as proof that this new Captain America also has a Serum Variant. If not, they might try to to chalk this up to a combination of "played football" and "he is naturally capable". While this would slightly undermine the whole idea of the Super Soldier serum and its importance, they never stated that this is a reason Caps shield works in the MCU so they could have changed it as they see fit. Maybe the fact that its shock absorbent makes it easier to handle as well light to carry (to work like a 40lb brick it only has to weigh 13lb after all - you know, magic metal).
eldaec
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Reply #73 on: March 30, 2021, 05:18:57 AM

While watching it first time I assumed he'd had the serum because of the shit he could do. But thinking about what was said I'm fairly confident we're supposed to think he hasn't.

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Draegan
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Reply #74 on: March 30, 2021, 07:16:22 AM

I'm a little fuzzy on that point. I think they may start explaining things that he got some lesser version of it as they had tried to recreate it. Maybe he goes bad guy when he just wants more and more of it.
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Reply #75 on: March 30, 2021, 08:48:25 AM

I think the thing they are trying to say is that NewCap is actually "peak human", able to make the triple bounce metal frisbee shots...and that's not enough. Super soldier serum puts the recipient on a whole different level. Bucky has had Hydra knockoff serum...and that's not quite good enough to match up with whatever the Power Broker has cooked up.

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Reply #76 on: March 30, 2021, 09:38:14 AM

I thought he had the serum until he got in a fight against those guys who did have the serum. Sam definitely doesn't have it and he was meant to use the shield anyways, so I don't think it matters with regards to that.

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Reply #77 on: March 30, 2021, 11:31:44 AM

I mean, I'm sure as Vel said they'll just hand wave it away as Vibranium magic for the MCU, but in Endgame when he hands the Shield to Sam, I was internally scream "Why the fuck would you give it to Sam, he isn't powered and can't throw it!  Give it to Bucky who has a super arm!"

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Velorath
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Reply #78 on: March 30, 2021, 01:46:45 PM


I don't think strength is the issue when it comes to throwing the shield since you could just handwave that away as Vibranium being lightweight.

Reason this doesn't work for me is that it hits things like a 40 lb metal brick, not an ultimate Frisbee.

Again, chalk it up to Vibranium having unusual properties when it comes to kinetic energy or something. Presumably that's also how you handwave away the shield not imbedding itself in someone's chest when they get hit with it. I'm not entirely sure how he catches the shield though. At first I thought maybe magnets in the arm of the suit like Cap has had at times, but when they show footage of him throwing it during his interview he's bare-armed. Whatever, it's comic book science.

In the comics though, I know people with ordinary strength have been able to throw the shield and as I think I previously mentioned, they show in the comics when Walker is training to be Cap specifically why someone with super strength needs to avoid throwing the shield too hard.
eldaec
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Reply #79 on: March 30, 2021, 02:38:24 PM

I mean, I'm sure as Vel said they'll just hand wave it away as Vibranium magic for the MCU, but in Endgame when he hands the Shield to Sam, I was internally scream "Why the fuck would you give it to Sam, he isn't powered and can't throw it!  Give it to Bucky who has a super arm!"

I assumed in endgame he was saying 'paint your wings blue and stick this on your back or something'.

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SurfD
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Reply #80 on: March 30, 2021, 06:24:02 PM

According to the original Cap movie, Vibranium is 1/3rd the weight of steel.  Not sure what that translates to in overall weight given the size of the shield, but it's probably a lot lighter than 40 pounds.

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Khaldun
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Reply #81 on: March 30, 2021, 06:39:15 PM

It doesn't really make sense in the comics or here, though. It absorbs all kinetic impacts so Cap can land on it from terminal velocity and have it not transmit any of that to him? Ok, then how does it work that it hits you hard if you get the edge of it in your face? But doesn't chop your hand off if you're catching it? But it's fine, it's Captain America's shield! Yeah!

Though now that I'm thinking on it, it's NOT his shield actually. It's not the MCU-Prime shield, that actually did get destroyed. It's a shield that Time-Travelling Peggy-Sexing Cap picked up somewhere yet to be disclosed. Which at the end of Endgame, Bucky kind of seems to know about, judging from his expression...
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Reply #82 on: March 30, 2021, 06:59:28 PM

Yeah, the whole "completely vibration absorbent" was always a head scratcher, as that kind of property would have made most actual offensive combat uses impossible.   Can't bounce it off objects if it just slams into the first thing it hits and drops to the floor because it absorbed all the kinetic momentum.

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Velorath
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Reply #83 on: March 30, 2021, 09:18:23 PM

Though now that I'm thinking on it, it's NOT his shield actually. It's not the MCU-Prime shield, that actually did get destroyed. It's a shield that Time-Travelling Peggy-Sexing Cap picked up somewhere yet to be disclosed. Which at the end of Endgame, Bucky kind of seems to know about, judging from his expression...

The MCU shield wouldn't be too hard to duplicate since it's just Vibranium and Cap knows where Vibranium comes from. It's not like the comics where the shield was created almost by accident and they've never been able to replicate the process.
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Reply #84 on: March 30, 2021, 09:34:09 PM

I always liked "Captain America's shield is a one-time accident and nobody knows how to make another", but of course it creates an immense story pressure--in most worlds, he'd be constantly pursued by people who want the shield either to study or to have.

Of course in the regular Marvel Universe, adamantium went from "this is super hard to make and there's almost none of it on the planet" to "I am putting adamantium foil on the baking sheet because it makes the cookies so very crunchy". As soon as you say "this rare shit can in fact be made", the rare shit becomes as common as dishwater.
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Reply #85 on: March 30, 2021, 09:42:08 PM

Wasn't the first version of it made by Starks Dad?

My interpretation has always been that there is nothing particularly special about the Shield.  It's just a big metal disk made out of super rare metal that deflects things.  It only works as a weapon if the man using it has super agility, perception, and strength.

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SurfD
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Reply #86 on: March 30, 2021, 10:28:25 PM

Wasn't the first version of it made by Starks Dad?
Yep.  Entire backstory of the shield was basically "What's that?  It's a prototype shield made of all the vibranium we know of.  It's lighter than steel and absorbs vibrations. Can I have it?  Sure." and that was it.  It's only "unique" property was being made of Vibranium.

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eldaec
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Reply #87 on: March 31, 2021, 06:06:28 AM

I'm pretty sure there is only one shield. But time travel is involved.


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Khaldun
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Reply #88 on: April 01, 2021, 09:52:49 AM

In the comics, the shield is made by a dude who otherwise doesn't matter except for this bit of lore--he's experimenting with some vibranium and some other metals, he falls asleep while one of his mixtures is curing in a mold, and some other metal accidentally gets in the mix, voila! an indestructible shield. Because he can't figure out what the alloy's exact composition is, he never recreates it, though the same dude goes on to create adamantium. The spiel on it is that the shield is light and because it absorbs kinetic impacts, it doesn't lose momentum when Cap throws it that's why he can richochet it off five guys and have it come back to him (and yet not take his hand off or break his wrist when it gets there--maybe that's the part that takes practice and strength).

Making that scientist into Howard Stark in the MCU was smart. Though Howard Stark in the main Marvel Universe is a fucking mess--at times he's been a vicious and violent alcoholic who hated his son and vice-versa, and I think more recently Stark discovered that his father wasn't even his father. Though I guess even more recently than that Tony Stark is dead, so who cares.
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Reply #89 on: April 01, 2021, 10:04:13 AM

Yeah, the whole "completely vibration absorbent" was always a head scratcher, as that kind of property would have made most actual offensive combat uses impossible.   Can't bounce it off objects if it just slams into the first thing it hits and drops to the floor because it absorbed all the kinetic momentum.

My interpretation of this based on the scene in Avengers where he uses the shield to block a swing from Mjolnir is that the shape of the shield combined with the properties of vibranium causes the energy of any impact near the middle of the shield to be redirected to the edges in the form of intense vibration, bleeding off the kinetic energy at right angles to the holder.  Hence the massive shockwave all around Cap in that scene, but Cap not being driven into the ground like a railroad spike.

Impacts at the edges wouldn't have the same property, which is why it recoils with apparent perfect conservation of momentum when it hits something on an edge.  And it returns to Cap because super soldier something something means he basically has Bullseye's superpower of being able to make every shot at the perfect angle for it to ricochet the way he wants it.

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eldaec
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Reply #90 on: April 01, 2021, 10:27:43 AM

Fwiw the trailer also makes clear that non serum guys can use the shield the way Human Torch did.

Reinforcing the view that fakeCap probably isn't serumed, at least not yet.

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Velorath
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Reply #91 on: April 02, 2021, 03:02:40 AM

Zemo so much better here than he was in Civil War.
Raguel
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Reply #92 on: April 02, 2021, 08:43:25 AM

Someone on twitter called Walker "dollar tree Captain America" and I can't stop giggling.  awesome, for real

Not really digging the direction they are taking Walker but overall I really liked this episode.
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Reply #93 on: April 02, 2021, 11:31:29 AM

Baron Zemo is the best part of this show.

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Khaldun
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Reply #94 on: April 02, 2021, 07:36:29 PM

Definitely enjoyed him in this episode. Much more fun than the dour and improbably master-planning Zemo of Civil War. 

I will continue my Always Wrong Comics Fan Speculations [tm]:

SurfD
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Reply #95 on: April 02, 2021, 11:40:39 PM


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eldaec
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Reply #96 on: April 03, 2021, 03:29:20 AM

Tbh I can barely remember zemo from civil war. I vaguely remember him as a less memorable version of the bad guy from iron man 3 whose name I don't even remember.

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Khaldun
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Reply #97 on: April 03, 2021, 09:02:28 AM

Velorath
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Reply #98 on: April 03, 2021, 11:37:39 AM

I really don't think we need to spoiler speculation, especially with the track record some of you guys have.

I don't see Red Skull being involved. It felt like his appearance in Endgame was to write the character out after leaving his plot thread hanging since the first Cap movie. Internet speculation is mostly focused on Sharon, and I guess that's a possibility. With no SHIELD and no Cap, she no longer has the things that her comic book counterpart typically revolves around so it might make sense to do something else with her. Heinrich (Zemo the Elder) would be another possibility.

One thought is that it's a bit odd they're using Madripoor here as that's a location generally associated with the X-Men, particularly Wolverine. The only real non-mutant I can think of with a big connection to Madripoor is Viper, who ran Madripoor for a while. She's also got a longtime connection with Hydra so she would fit in the MCU pretty easily. I don't know why they would introduce her as the Power Broker, but she has had a number of aliases over the years.

Or it could be somebody connected with Bucky's past. The names of the people he's supposed to make amends with came up in this episode again, and thematically it would make sense if the Power Broker were somebody with ties to at least one of the heroes here.
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Reply #99 on: April 03, 2021, 12:13:06 PM

Madripoor just reminded me of Marvel Heroes, RIP shit game.

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Raguel
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Reply #100 on: April 03, 2021, 01:13:19 PM

Madripoor just reminded me of Marvel Heroes, RIP shit game.

I don't want to totally derail the thread bud: I loved that game, although admittedly more for the VA than the actual gameplay. I'd really like to know why people who love that type of Diablo style game think it failed. Bad optimization, graphics, gameplay, etc?
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Reply #101 on: April 03, 2021, 01:15:10 PM

I wanted to see a 2.5 second flash of "Patch" just to throw fanboys into a tizzy.

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eldaec
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Reply #102 on: April 03, 2021, 02:12:16 PM

Madripoor just reminded me of Marvel Heroes, RIP shit game.

I don't want to totally derail the thread bud: I loved that game, although admittedly more for the VA than the actual gameplay. I'd really like to know why people who love that type of Diablo style game think it failed. Bad optimization, graphics, gameplay, etc?


Got a bit wonky ast the end, but it was a fine example of the 'click on things until they die' genre.

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Threash
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Reply #103 on: April 03, 2021, 02:23:31 PM

Madripoor just reminded me of Marvel Heroes, RIP shit game.

I don't want to totally derail the thread bud: I loved that game, although admittedly more for the VA than the actual gameplay. I'd really like to know why people who love that type of Diablo style game think it failed. Bad optimization, graphics, gameplay, etc?


Weirdly i think they might have been too generous. I was swimming in cash store items and enough tokens to buy every hero as it came out just from regular play. A LOT of regular play granted, but still. And to me the gameplay was great, but yeah the VA was top notch. Jean Grey telling Emma Frost "I can read minds with my clothes on" still cracks me up.

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Reply #104 on: April 03, 2021, 05:51:40 PM

Madripoor just reminded me of Marvel Heroes, RIP shit game.
I don't want to totally derail the thread bud: I loved that game, although admittedly more for the VA than the actual gameplay. I'd really like to know why people who love that type of Diablo style game think it failed. Bad optimization, graphics, gameplay, etc?
Got a bit wonky ast the end, but it was a fine example of the 'click on things until they die' genre.
It failed cause their CEO is a total scumbag and destroyed the company and ruined their chances of getting the license renewed. Screwing up the Omega console release didn't help either.
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