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Author Topic: Dune!!  (Read 7102 times)
BobtheSomething
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Reply #35 on: September 10, 2020, 04:26:32 PM

That looks pretty good.

I don't think I've read the books in 20 years.
$54 for the kindle version box set. I think I am going to buy and read them again.

That seems extraordinarily expensive for six books you can find in most used book stores or grandparents’ neighbors’ estate sales.
Pennilenko
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Reply #36 on: September 10, 2020, 04:38:36 PM

That looks pretty good.

I don't think I've read the books in 20 years.
$54 for the kindle version box set. I think I am going to buy and read them again.

That seems extraordinarily expensive for six books you can find in most used book stores or grandparents’ neighbors’ estate sales.
We don't have room for anymore physical books. Plus our kindle plugs into my son's AR reading app and he can use my library for advanced reading credit in his class.

"See?  All of you are unique.  And special.  Like fucking snowflakes."  -- Signe
BobtheSomething
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Reply #37 on: September 10, 2020, 04:53:05 PM

Damn I’m old.  I can’t get into kindles or ebooks or any of that. 
Hawkbit
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Reply #38 on: September 10, 2020, 07:04:58 PM

Damn I’m old.  I can’t get into kindles or ebooks or any of that. 

I can't either, don't feel bad. I have a Kindle and it rots. I love physical books. We have stacks of them in hallways and corners like a freaky wizard tower.
Khaldun
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Reply #39 on: September 10, 2020, 07:40:26 PM

We have upwards of 4,500 books spread between the house and my office, so yeah. But I can read Kindle comfortable enough. There are times where I am very happy to have it--travelling it is a damn godsend. I think the main thing I goddamn hate about it is that I can't make a pdf of a chapter or two to assign in classes or for a colleague, which I can with a physical book--the basic IP situation of Kindles/ebooks is a fucking travesty and annoys me enough to keep me from really committing to it as a format.
Velorath
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Reply #40 on: September 10, 2020, 08:10:37 PM

Having moved twice in the last 3 years and likely to move again before too long, I'm over owning actual books.
Abagadro
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Reply #41 on: September 10, 2020, 08:13:21 PM

Trailers are made by separate companies and the marketing department, not the director. Villenueve is apparently a very big fan of the book so I expect it to be very faithful to it for better or worse depending on where you stand on that (better in my opinion).  

And yes, the book is like the ur text of grim dark/emo sci-fi.  The entire narrative framing is based on pre-chapter stuff written after the events talking about how shitty it all was. Predestination is a bitch.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Draegan
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Reply #42 on: September 10, 2020, 08:14:19 PM

We don't do books anymore. I haven't bought a physical book in over a decade. My wife just moved to kindle books or digital with the library app.

Only exception is books for the kiddos.
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Reply #43 on: September 10, 2020, 08:27:58 PM

I bought four hardbacks in the last 24 hours.

This is normal for  me.
Khaldun
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Reply #44 on: September 10, 2020, 08:34:18 PM

 Thumbs up!
BobtheSomething
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Reply #45 on: September 10, 2020, 08:40:16 PM

My wife has had me giving away books by the Home Depot boxful.  I still probably have a couple thousand.

I tried getting I to ebooks a decade ago in the hopes I could consolidate, but just could not concentrate enough to get into anything that wasn’t at least partially visual, like an RPG book.  I found that I could read for pages and then just snap out of it and realize I wasn’t digesting what I was reading or visualizing it like I would if I were reading a real book.  And the temptation to use the device to just go on the internet for more instant gratification was a constant distraction.


But anyway, Dune. 
I like these visuals, but I found the Lynch movie more distinctive.  The books themselves slotted right into that era for descriptions of people, places and devices, so if it weren’t for the Lnch film giving Dune a specific texture when I visualized it, it would have been almost forgettable for me.
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Reply #46 on: September 10, 2020, 08:54:07 PM

Between this trailer and recently rewatching the 1984 movie (it's on HBO!) it might be time for me to reread the novel.  Luckily I still have the paperback copy that my dad gave me ~20 years ago.   DRILLING AND MANLINESS

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lamaros
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Reply #47 on: September 10, 2020, 09:47:12 PM

I've read the book more than 10 times, and while I agree with the content of what you're saying Khal (and others), I still don't agree with the tone.

Dune is the hero's journey. It's dramatic with action and tension and wonderment. It's larger than life. For me the trailer has too much reserve.

If Dune was Leto's story, or Duncan Idaho's story, then then tone would fit. But the melancholy doesn't fit Paul. The plot might suit, the colours might suit, the feeling might suit... everything might suit "what actually happened"... but that's not the experience Paul see and feels and lives in Dune.

Dune is a very colonial book, and Paul is the colonial governor's son. His experience is at massive odds with that of his father, mother, etc. So while this might be a representation of the plot, it feels like it misses the point.

If this was a trailer for Dune Messiah then it would fit really well too.

However, that doesn't mean I'm saying the movie will be shit. Just probably quite a different telling of the story to the book.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 01:06:16 AM by lamaros »
Hawkbit
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Reply #48 on: September 10, 2020, 10:59:10 PM

I'm also not feeling the grimdark/emo aspects of the book, it never came across to me that way. If anything, it was less a "rise of an emperor" and more "rise of a messiah". The chapter heads of Irulan retelling the history of these times made it always feel more like a bible, less a history book. My perception, of course.

I would also like to agree with lamaros in an earlier post "It won't be close to my Dune though". Nobody's going to make the movie in my imagination, and this is one of the few books that won't change.
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Reply #49 on: September 10, 2020, 11:20:08 PM

I didn't mind the tone of the trailer overall, aside from being very by-the-numbers.* But, I can't get over Paul's look specifically. I remember him starting the story as a stuffy, straight-laced noble desperate for Mom and Dad's approval, which doesn't come through at all with this Paul's messy mop of hair, tacky eyeliner, and complete lack of poise. Paul from the book never looked like he was about to declare "Fuck Batman."

I'll still see it.

*unexpected cover of a classic hit, indeed
Phildo
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Reply #50 on: September 11, 2020, 12:03:46 AM

Trailers are made by separate companies and the marketing department, not the director

This is an important takeaway.  The trailer house was very clearly going for a modern summer blockbuster vibe and that's fine, the movie can and should be judged separately.  The cast is fantastic and so is the director, so this is an automatic watch for me.  And anyway, would drifting from the books or the Lynch film be so bad if you're already intimately familiar with those?  There's an argument to be made that if those are all you want, go watch your director's cut Blu-Ray and move on?
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Reply #51 on: September 11, 2020, 12:15:04 AM

On the visual look, outside of the aforementioned gom jabbar writing utensil and the sandworm's teeth being just stupidly long (I wonder if we can get them to redo the CGI like they did for the teeth in the Sonic the Hedgehog movie?) things seemed to be pretty decent.

While I love most of the production design of the David Lynch movie, there are some pieces like the Sardaukar uniforms which definitely were terrible and it looks like they may have done a good job with this new vision. I like that they kept most of the aesthetic of the Lynch version stillsuits.


'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
Hawkbit
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Reply #52 on: September 11, 2020, 12:49:05 AM

I kinda liked this vision of the worms - I thought maybe they switched out teeth for something like baleen. For filtering through sand, it kinda makes sense. There's no animals on Arrakis for the worms to actually need teeth - but they do need to filter spice and sand.
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Reply #53 on: September 11, 2020, 02:11:22 AM

I kinda liked this vision of the worms - I thought maybe they switched out teeth for something like baleen. For filtering through sand, it kinda makes sense. There's no animals on Arrakis for the worms to actually need teeth - but they do need to filter spice and sand.

Except for the whole fact that an important part of the story is the whole crysknife being the tooth of Shai-Hulud thing.

'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
Hoax
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Reply #54 on: September 11, 2020, 05:33:25 AM

wow you people are fucked in the head

i may brave a theater for this and i was certainly never planning to do that any time soon. director is world class, cast looks great, crying that the needle is a pen is peak nerd fucklord for my week. bravo.

Dune is a very colonial book, and Paul is the colonial governor's son.
Truth. where you go with that thought feels like an insane reach.

I can't get over Paul's look specifically. I remember him starting the story as a stuffy, straight-laced noble desperate for Mom and Dad's approval,

this is the only halfway decent founded in something we actually saw complaint in the whole thread imo. but then again there wouldn't be a ton of scenes of that Paul no doubt and actors can act etc.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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Hawkbit
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Reply #55 on: September 11, 2020, 09:41:55 AM

I kinda liked this vision of the worms - I thought maybe they switched out teeth for something like baleen. For filtering through sand, it kinda makes sense. There's no animals on Arrakis for the worms to actually need teeth - but they do need to filter spice and sand.

Except for the whole fact that an important part of the story is the whole crysknife being the tooth of Shai-Hulud thing.


Yep I spaced on that. Good catch.
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #56 on: September 11, 2020, 10:46:56 AM

I kinda liked this vision of the worms - I thought maybe they switched out teeth for something like baleen. For filtering through sand, it kinda makes sense. There's no animals on Arrakis for the worms to actually need teeth - but they do need to filter spice and sand.

Except for the whole fact that an important part of the story is the whole crysknife being the tooth of Shai-Hulud thing.


 In the book it's kind of a subtle side plot on them which ties analogously to the whole outworlders stumbling around the mysteries of Dune. I wouldn't be surprised if it is just entirely cut out of the film given the time and narrative limitations of the movie format compared to a book. Some sacrifices like that will likely have to be made to deliver a good movie.
BobtheSomething
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Reply #57 on: September 11, 2020, 12:15:10 PM

The sandworm teeth are meant to make the sandworm' so pen mouth look like a giant eye staring down on Paul in that shot.  Or a butthole.
Teleku
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Reply #58 on: September 11, 2020, 01:33:38 PM

Boy, I didn't realize there were such strong opinions of Dune on F13!

I thought the trailer was perfect.  Everything about the ascetics, tone, actors.... everything about it was way closer to my internal vision of Dune than anything else I've seen before.  But boy, obviously a lot of people here read that book differently than I did.  Not to call out Lameros specifically, but I just thought it was interesting he said:
Quote
Dune was Leto's story, or Duncan Idaho's story, then then tone would fit. But the melancholy doesn't fit Paul. The plot might suit, the colours might suit, the feeling might suit... everything might suit "what actually happened"... but that's not the experience Paul see and feels and lives in Dune.
When I took away the exact opposite from the books.  For me, Leto and Duncan are very much the classic hero's you'd expect from a fantasy sci-fi.  They'd fit the usual tropes and more action/upbeat style.  Paul though is a moody teen with a lot of fucked up mental shit done to him since birth and the start of the book.  Trying to come to grips with that just as his family is thrown into some major turmoil and he goes through a lot more trauma as the book progresses on top of fucked up mental shit coming from is mom.  The tone of this trailer for me was much more on  point for him specifically.  I have a similar disconnect with a lot of other comments about it in this thread, so I just find the contrasts interesting.  To each their own, but I was not tracking this movie at all to this point ('oh god, another Dune attempt!') and now I'm more excited for it than anything else for a long time now.

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Reply #59 on: September 11, 2020, 01:44:14 PM

Just realized the word Spice was never mentioned. 1/10, will not watch.

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Reply #60 on: September 11, 2020, 01:50:05 PM

Just realized the word Spice was never mentioned. 1/10, will not watch.

But spice was shown in the last frames of the trailer.

'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
Khaldun
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Reply #61 on: September 11, 2020, 02:56:32 PM

I really don't get the proposition that Dune is not melancholy or that Paul's journey is the conventional hero's journey.

He is not Harry Potter or Luke Skywalker or Taran. All of them may have sad things happen on their journeys, but when they triumph and come into their own, they defeat Voldemort, the Emperor, or Arawn Deathlord. He's not even Frodo, who ends up badly hurt but who at least (with Sam's help and Gollum's accidental own goal) sees Sauron overthrown.

Paul wins out but he's in a trap from the very beginning--that's the point, his entire journey is a gom jabbar ordeal. He doesn't cry out; he doesn't gnaw off his own hand. He is not an animal. He knows he's in a trap. He knows that the spice agony will make him a messiah and he knows that being a messiah is a tragedy not a victory. It's just better than all the other tragedies he can see. He already knows his sister is a monster, that his child will be an abomination, that his rule will be tyrannical and the rulers to follow even more so. Just...that it's better than the alternatives. That makes him a protagonist--he is more righteous than his enemies, who are treacherous and sadistic. He is more skilled and disciplined than his subjects--that makes him a target of reader identification and desire. But he himself is deeply melancholy and portentously so throughout. Maybe teenagers are so emo that they don't pick up that Paul's melancholy is way more than Harry Potter sulking because Snape is mean and his parents are dead. Paul is a prophet who knows his story ends up with him a wandering and bitter prophet in the wilderness, helpless against an immortal tyranny that is the direct consequence of Paul's own actions--but knowing it's necessary because the alternative is the extinction of all humanity.

Herbert didn't mean to celebrate Paul's journey--that was always a major theme that he insisted on in interviews, that Paul's story is both tragic for Paul and an indication of our tragic reliance on charismatic political leaders.
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Reply #62 on: September 11, 2020, 08:35:35 PM


"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Setanta
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Reply #63 on: September 11, 2020, 11:14:59 PM

Dune is one of those series of books that I pick up and binge on every 2-3 years (including the not-so-good-but-perfectly-readable prequels). There is nothing about the trailer that makes me not want to see the movie. It looks great.

TBH, I'd like to see the prequels picked up and turned into a TV series - the back history to the Harkonnen as heroes and the link to the Atreides descended from the Cymeks kept me interested, whereas when the man series got to the Honoured Matres, I lost interest.

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lamaros
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Reply #64 on: September 11, 2020, 11:29:35 PM

I really don't get the proposition that Dune is not melancholy or that Paul's journey is the conventional hero's journey.

He is not Harry Potter or Luke Skywalker or Taran. All of them may have sad things happen on their journeys, but when they triumph and come into their own, they defeat Voldemort, the Emperor, or Arawn Deathlord. He's not even Frodo, who ends up badly hurt but who at least (with Sam's help and Gollum's accidental own goal) sees Sauron overthrown.

Paul wins out but he's in a trap from the very beginning--that's the point, his entire journey is a gom jabbar ordeal. He doesn't cry out; he doesn't gnaw off his own hand. He is not an animal. He knows he's in a trap. He knows that the spice agony will make him a messiah and he knows that being a messiah is a tragedy not a victory. It's just better than all the other tragedies he can see. He already knows his sister is a monster, that his child will be an abomination, that his rule will be tyrannical and the rulers to follow even more so. Just...that it's better than the alternatives. That makes him a protagonist--he is more righteous than his enemies, who are treacherous and sadistic. He is more skilled and disciplined than his subjects--that makes him a target of reader identification and desire. But he himself is deeply melancholy and portentously so throughout. Maybe teenagers are so emo that they don't pick up that Paul's melancholy is way more than Harry Potter sulking because Snape is mean and his parents are dead. Paul is a prophet who knows his story ends up with him a wandering and bitter prophet in the wilderness, helpless against an immortal tyranny that is the direct consequence of Paul's own actions--but knowing it's necessary because the alternative is the extinction of all humanity.

Herbert didn't mean to celebrate Paul's journey--that was always a major theme that he insisted on in interviews, that Paul's story is both tragic for Paul and an indication of our tragic reliance on charismatic political leaders.


It's certainly not a hero's journey in a conventional sense. But I don't think it strays that far, especially if you're going on the text, not the plot. It's still Paul's coming of age tale in the first book. He's still a hero in the first book. He knows it won't last. But the book ends before it follows through.

Paul is tortured, not melancholy. There's a huge difference in tone there, which is where I disagree with you. His dad is fatalistic and melancholy. Idaho is depressed. Jessica is angry. But Paul, even with the prophecy, has energy and activity. He's as excited as he is afraid, and as unsure as he is certain. Paul's "way more" is not coming across in that trailer for me. It has a petty gravity to it, not grandeur.

But this is all a lot of talk off very little.
Abagadro
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Reply #65 on: September 17, 2020, 07:30:57 PM


"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Draegan
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Reply #66 on: September 18, 2020, 07:10:34 AM

I'm going to try to read these books again. My last effort was a long time ago and I stalled on the 3rd book I think.
Khaldun
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Reply #67 on: September 18, 2020, 10:35:10 AM

https://twitter.com/JTramiers/status/1306733625405304832

Even better.

------------------------------

Do NOT try to read past the 3rd book.

Read Dune Messiah quickly, it's not very good. It's really kind of like afterword to Dune and a prologue to Children.

Children is pretty decent though.
Ruvaldt
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Reply #68 on: September 18, 2020, 12:09:01 PM

Yeah, there's a steep drop in quality between Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune.  Children of Dune is a fun read.  God Emperor of Dune is a dour, nigh unreadable mess.

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
Abagadro
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Reply #69 on: September 18, 2020, 01:51:16 PM

Yeah, there's a steep drop in quality between Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune.  Children of Dune is a fun read.  God Emperor of Dune is a dour, nigh unreadable mess.


"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
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