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Author Topic: Star Wars 9 : The Rise of Skywalker  (Read 67584 times)
HaemishM
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Reply #560 on: January 13, 2020, 12:35:59 PM

I maintain that the overarching theme of TLJ is failure both by design and by accident.

Riggswolfe
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Reply #561 on: January 13, 2020, 08:10:54 PM


The Luke/Kylo/Rey thing was handled poorly. That was the only interesting thing out of the three movies and all the interesting bits were handled in 30 second flashbacks or off screen.

Luke's whole journey into depression and Ben turning into Kylo should have been the first act of the trilogy. You didn't need the new deathstar or snoke.

Bah. I get so angry over the incompetence.

Yeah, imagine if TFA was set at Luke's academy and Rey and Ben Solo are friends. She has anger issues and a dark side but at the end of the movie it's Ben who falls and destroys it all, not her. Especially with what we now know, they could've dropped hints with Luke being worried about her potential for darkness and stuff.

I maintain that the overarching theme of TLJ is failure both by design and by accident.

Make a movie about failure and fail at making a good movie to drive the point home. Meta!

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Khaldun
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Reply #562 on: January 13, 2020, 09:42:20 PM

So do I. I just locate the incompetence differently than some of you.

I think that's the essence of all this. I can see things to like about TLJ that could have been better--I can see it *trying* to do something daring. I can't see a fucking thing in ROS that justifies even the least excuse for its rampant incompetence.

When I grade student work, the student who tries for something more and kind of fucks it up gets way more appreciation from me than the student who is bored and does something safe and vaguely competent but who really can't even be arsed to do that very well. That's a really fundamental moral thing for me: trying to do something better and more daring is always more worthy than doing something calculatedly low-risk, especially if in both cases you fuck up some shit that could have been vastly better.

Some of you are kinder to unambitious stuff, because you are more irritated by something that pokes at something you would rather be left undisturbed, like thinking that Luke Skywalker should have been the most awesomest old Jedi of all old Jedi rather than a fucked-up hermit.
HaemishM
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Reply #563 on: January 13, 2020, 09:45:05 PM

I didn't have a problem with Luke being a grumpy, checked out old hermit. I had a problem with how ridiculous the movie wrote him in that capacity. The green milk was just the most obvious example of its stupidity. Not actually giving us any real indication of how or why Kylo went bad other than "maybe Luke thought about killing him" didn't help matters.

Riggswolfe
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Reply #564 on: January 13, 2020, 10:02:54 PM



Some of you are kinder to unambitious stuff, because you are more irritated by something that pokes at something you would rather be left undisturbed, like thinking that Luke Skywalker should have been the most awesomest old Jedi of all old Jedi rather than a fucked-up hermit.


Get out of here with this shit. TLJ wasn't some misunderstood David Lynch movie that people just didn't get. I'm fully capable of seeing it tried to take risks. But I'm also fully capable of seeing it had really, really bad writing for around 70% of its runtime.

That reminds me, I'm reading a fairly silly modern fantasy book series and one of the minor plot points is they get movies from other universes that were never made in our universe and rent them for like $100 a night as a way to pay their bills. A fairly popular one is David Lynch's Return of the Jedi. I'd love to see that though I imagine Lucas would have stroked out trying to keep David Lynch painting inside the lines.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
lamaros
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Reply #565 on: January 13, 2020, 10:17:33 PM

Some of you are kinder to unambitious stuff, because you are more irritated by something that pokes at something you would rather be left undisturbed, like thinking that Luke Skywalker should have been the most awesomest old Jedi of all old Jedi rather than a fucked-up hermit.

You are really invested in TLJ for some reason. That's cool.

But I'm not sure it's leading to you understanding other people's views very well.

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Goumindong
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Reply #566 on: January 14, 2020, 01:29:42 PM

I didn't have a problem with Luke being a grumpy, checked out old hermit. I had a problem with how ridiculous the movie wrote him in that capacity. The green milk was just the most obvious example of its stupidity. Not actually giving us any real indication of how or why Kylo went bad other than "maybe Luke thought about killing him" didn't help matters.

I do not understand why the green milk was such an issue?  I also don’t understand how Ben falling was hard to understand 
HaemishM
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Reply #567 on: January 14, 2020, 02:33:09 PM

Green milk was an issue because it was stupid, and would only have been grosser if he'd sucked it directly from the teat. It made Luke look ridiculous and like most of the humor in the movie, was really odd and out of place (see Poe's prank phone call of Hux in the opening set piece).

TheWalrus
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Reply #568 on: January 14, 2020, 02:48:46 PM

It's a farm boy tryin to gross someone out. Totally believable and normal. Kind of a weird nitpick unless you've never seen it in real life.

we did it gang, we successfully actually impeached trump

now! [claps hands] on to the next, more important step of this — we must convince ourselves this is meaningless and we have accomplished nothing in an even symbolic sense and will still lose. let's have a big "nothing matters" on the count of three! one, two
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Khaldun
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Reply #569 on: January 14, 2020, 02:51:08 PM

I enjoyed the idiosyncratic humor in TLJ. I don't see why it rubbed people the wrong way to the extent that it did, except for the prank call, which just seemed dumb. In a series that has featured Ewoks, farting livestock, giant space worms, a Jedi master fighting with a droid over a snack, C3PO's dialogue, Salacious Crumb, etc., it's not as if whimsy or odd humorous elements are a new thing.


Ben Solo's underexplained turn to the Dark Side as detected by Luke was consistent frankly with every turn to the Dark Side that we've seen in the films, really. Why Dooku turned, why Anakin turned, why Ben turned, all happen fundamentally either outside the visible narrative or seem largely unmotivated. Partly because "evil" in Star Wars is both extremely well-delineated and explicit (it's stellar genocide, choking underlings, subverting democracy, all that good stuff) and yet with the exception of Ben Solo, strikingly vacant in emotional terms--at least Ben Solo actually gets angry in ways that seem sort of human. As is "good", really. At least the sequels actually had Rey grappling with this a bit: why am I a good person? Why am I nice? I have no reason to be, especially.

Luke got a precognitive flash that Ben was going to murder people directly and be culpable in mass murder and that he was going to prance around in a helmet acting like Darth Vader. As with other precognitive flashes in the series, it was an incomplete and misleading vision, but basically not wrong. In some sense if Luke *had* murdered Ben that would have been better for all concerned--it's the fundamental problem that precognition poses always in these kinds of stories. Are you a good guy if you refuse to kill Hitler-the-artist in Vienna if you get the chance? Hitler-the-kid? That we don't really know why Ben was a bad seed would be really dumb and distressing in another kind of story, but in Star Wars, we don't have richly emotional reasons for why anybody does anything except maybe why Han Solo and Princess Leia get it on (basically that's just attraction and proximity) and why Obi-Wan feels obliged to train Anakin (to honor his dead master). Why is Palpatine so motivated to kill the Jedi anyway besides being trained in an ancient tradition that wants to do so? Why do any of the Jedi actually do their thing other than being trained from childhood to do it? Why do the Separatists want to separate, really? What's their grievance? Why doesn't the Republic just build droid armies to fight droid armies? Why do autonomously motivated droids like R2-D2 not want to be free of being treated like disposable machines? Is Anakin really just going Dark Side because he's a sulky teenager?

If you're worried about not getting a 411 on Ben Solo's actual backstory motivation for turning evil and expected to see something like "because he resents his dad for leaving his mom" or anything beyond "a Dark Side wizard was seducing him with mystical evil", you're suddenly asking for something the series has never given you except in the Filoni-produced cartoons. Which is arguably fine: Star Wars is a pulpy clash of simple archetypes and pulp tropes, not a sophisticated story full of adult psychological motivations and personality clashes.
HaemishM
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Reply #570 on: January 14, 2020, 04:10:23 PM

I criticized the prequels for Anakin's quick turn to the Dark Side and their laziness at actually showing any sort of reasoning for his sudden switch from lovesick puppy to genocidal baby killer. Ben Solo's turn had even less explanation, and thus my criticism. Just because other shitty movies in the series didn't explain things well enough or show instead of tell doesn't excuse this trilogy or TLJ from that particular writing sin.

Khaldun
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Reply #571 on: January 15, 2020, 01:22:03 PM

That at least is something that rests on the whole trilogy--and arguably is even worse in the JJA films. At least TLJ tried to explain why he's obsessed with Luke in specific and that Snoke was working at Ben Solo for a long time. TFA has absolutely zero to say about Kylo Ren's motivations, just his parentage, and Rise pretty much returns right to that--Ren/Ben's vision of Han doesn't apologize for anything, doesn't reference the time that Ben fell into the Batcave and had to wait for Chewbacca to come rescue him, nothing.

I think the series could use some serious attention to the precepts of Jedi and Sith and some greater emotional stakes for both in the future. It can be done: the Clone Wars cartoons not only gave Anakin more reason for his turn, it explained why others like Qui-Gon or Ahsoka Tano might have left the Jedi or been at odds with their leadership. There's a lot of undone work in general if they want to keep telling stories in this space; of the sequels, only TLJ even recognized the fact of that undone work. TFA and Rise just magnify the failure.
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Reply #572 on: January 15, 2020, 01:24:22 PM

There is no defending Kylo Ren. There was defending his crap character in The Force Awakens, or in the Last Jedi or in Rise of the Skywalker. It was a lazy uninteresting attempt at making a Darth Vader without any of the thought to what made that character cool or interesting. Ben Solo is whats ultimately wrong with these star wars movies. Shallow and uninterested in anything that makes the lore fascinating to its fans beyond surface appreciation for the aesthetics.

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Khaldun
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Reply #573 on: January 15, 2020, 01:29:31 PM

Good to know that while I'm being wrong in the eyes of just about everybody here, there's someone who can manage being more wrong. Kylo Ren and Rey are the major good things about the sequels generally--they got insanely lucky to have cast Adam Driver, who is really hitting his stride as an actor.
Sir T
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Reply #574 on: January 15, 2020, 01:56:57 PM

I have to admit that Green milk seems to be the sillyist thing to fixate on. I saw the scene and I didn't see anything wrong with it. Its an Alien creature. Gosh not that in Star Wars aaaaa. But then I grew up actually milking cattle, so I'm probably less horrified at the thought of people finding stuff that's edible on an Aiien world and going with it than other people. But really its just something to nit pick at if you are looking for something to nit pick.

Chocolate Milk, anyone? Also, how do you milk an oat?  why so serious?

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
TheWalrus
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Reply #575 on: January 15, 2020, 05:52:59 PM

I thought going the rage angle with Kylo worked well, and Driver definitely sold that just fine. It worked a helluva lot better than being a whiny bitch like Anakin. Yeah, he had temper tantrums, but it was dude putting his fist through a wall, not crying in a corner because his teacher didn't give him top marks.

we did it gang, we successfully actually impeached trump

now! [claps hands] on to the next, more important step of this — we must convince ourselves this is meaningless and we have accomplished nothing in an even symbolic sense and will still lose. let's have a big "nothing matters" on the count of three! one, two
-Samprimary
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Reply #576 on: January 15, 2020, 05:56:20 PM

I thought going the rage angle with Kylo worked well, and Driver definitely sold that just fine. It worked a helluva lot better than being a whiny bitch like Anakin. Yeah, he had temper tantrums, but it was dude putting his fist through a wall, not crying in a corner because his teacher didn't give him top marks.

Them lucking into casting Adam Driver is very different than them writing a compelling character.

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Abagadro
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Reply #577 on: January 15, 2020, 07:59:06 PM

https://news.avclub.com/turns-out-colin-trevorrows-version-of-star-wars-episod-1841002112

Treverrow's original story outline leaked. Interesting stuff in there and has some aspects of my rant of what should have happened from way back in the thread.

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HaemishM
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Reply #578 on: January 15, 2020, 08:30:04 PM

Sounds a fuckload better than ROS.

Brolan
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Reply #579 on: January 15, 2020, 08:30:16 PM

https://news.avclub.com/turns-out-colin-trevorrows-version-of-star-wars-episod-1841002112

Treverrow's original story outline leaked. Interesting stuff in there and has some aspects of my rant of what should have happened from way back in the thread.

I've seen a couple of videos on this and it sounds a lot better than what we got.
Sir T
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Reply #580 on: January 15, 2020, 09:13:50 PM

Ya, looks like a very solid story.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
Khaldun
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Reply #581 on: January 15, 2020, 09:22:24 PM

Jesus wept, that sounds a thousand times better than this. Not only is it more coherent, it isn't desperately trying to run away from everything in The Last Jedi as if it were CancerAIDS.

That's been my major point all along: acting like TLJ is the worst fucking thing ever is precisely what made a weak production team and a hack director think that the best thing they could do is wildly flail about trying to erase or undo everything in the last film. Which is the worst thing to do. The best thing to do is make the best out of the best ideas, skip the really bad ones, and make a good movie with a good story.

So disgusting that they had a good script treatment and trashed it.
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Reply #582 on: January 15, 2020, 10:51:40 PM

https://news.avclub.com/turns-out-colin-trevorrows-version-of-star-wars-episod-1841002112

Treverrow's original story outline leaked. Interesting stuff in there and has some aspects of my rant of what should have happened from way back in the thread.

Oh this sounds pretty bad but at least its something I guess.

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
Velorath
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Reply #583 on: January 15, 2020, 11:28:48 PM

https://news.avclub.com/turns-out-colin-trevorrows-version-of-star-wars-episod-1841002112

Treverrow's original story outline leaked. Interesting stuff in there and has some aspects of my rant of what should have happened from way back in the thread.

While it probably would have been marginally better than RoS, I don't for a second believe that the guy who wrote and directed both Jurassic World movies was actually going to make a good Star Wars movie.
eldaec
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Reply #584 on: January 16, 2020, 05:10:30 AM

I'm completely certain you could write a better outline for the RoS that got made.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #585 on: January 16, 2020, 09:52:48 AM

The second Jurassic World, maybe about half of that movie was scene by scene reshoots of the “cool parts” of all the other JP movies.  But in a not cool way.  It was extremely bad.  And I rather like the first Jurassic World, it is a good popcorn flick.

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #586 on: January 16, 2020, 12:53:29 PM

Jesus wept, that sounds a thousand times better than this. Not only is it more coherent, it isn't desperately trying to run away from everything in The Last Jedi as if it were CancerAIDS.



It kinda was CancerAIDS to the sequel trilogy. It discarded setup from the movie before left and right and utterly wasted 2 out of the 3 new protagonists.

There is no defending Kylo Ren. There was defending his crap character in The Force Awakens, or in the Last Jedi or in Rise of the Skywalker. It was a lazy uninteresting attempt at making a Darth Vader without any of the thought to what made that character cool or interesting. Ben Solo is whats ultimately wrong with these star wars movies. Shallow and uninterested in anything that makes the lore fascinating to its fans beyond surface appreciation for the aesthetics.

Congratulations on being more wrong about these movies than Khaldun.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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Reply #587 on: January 16, 2020, 01:10:32 PM

Jesus wept, that sounds a thousand times better than this. Not only is it more coherent, it isn't desperately trying to run away from everything in The Last Jedi as if it were CancerAIDS.



It kinda was CancerAIDS to the sequel trilogy. It discarded setup from the movie before left and right and utterly wasted 2 out of the 3 new protagonists.

There is no defending Kylo Ren. There was defending his crap character in The Force Awakens, or in the Last Jedi or in Rise of the Skywalker. It was a lazy uninteresting attempt at making a Darth Vader without any of the thought to what made that character cool or interesting. Ben Solo is whats ultimately wrong with these star wars movies. Shallow and uninterested in anything that makes the lore fascinating to its fans beyond surface appreciation for the aesthetics.

Congratulations on being more wrong about these movies than Khaldun.

Its funny because the more these movies come out the more I'm right about whats wrong with them.

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #588 on: January 17, 2020, 05:26:49 AM

Good to know that while I'm being wrong in the eyes of just about everybody here, there's someone who can manage being more wrong. Kylo Ren and Rey are the major good things about the sequels generally--they got insanely lucky to have cast Adam Driver, who is really hitting his stride as an actor.


They both had nothing to work with. Kylo Ren is written like a fifteen year old Emo teenager cliche who has a Darth Vader poster on the wall of his room instead of My Chemical Romance and Rey is the audience stand in and has the character and individuality of a movie theater cardboard cutout.

Still both Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver somehow made it work for the most part and they are actually probably the only redeeming part of RoS.

This requires actual acting skills and is pretty remarkable by both of them if you keep in mind what they had to work with. Without that skill you get prequel trilogy Hayden Christensen cringe.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #589 on: January 17, 2020, 05:33:05 AM

they lucked out with their casting and for the most part got actors that were actually quite good at polishing the turds they got for lines.

Doesn’t mean that what they had to work with wasn’t absolutely terrible.
Cyrrex
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Reply #590 on: January 17, 2020, 06:34:27 AM

Eh....I would say that is going too far.  They had plenty of "good" actors in the prequels, and they were mostly unable to polish the turds (Ewan simply proves the rule, or something).  I guess what I am saying is that these turds required less polishing.  Which is not to say that the actors didn't do good work with what they got, because they did.  But none of them had to deal with the shit that Hayden and Natalie had to deal with, that was asking too much of anyone.

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #591 on: January 17, 2020, 07:01:42 AM

Eh....I would say that is going too far.  They had plenty of "good" actors in the prequels, and they were mostly unable to polish the turds (Ewan simply proves the rule, or something).  I guess what I am saying is that these turds required less polishing.  Which is not to say that the actors didn't do good work with what they got, because they did.  But none of them had to deal with the shit that Hayden and Natalie had to deal with, that was asking too much of anyone.

One of the biggest mysteries about Star Wars to this day is how Ewan McGregor managed to turn in such an iconic performance when no one else in the prequels except Ian McDormand managed to do anything with what they were given.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #592 on: January 17, 2020, 07:12:57 AM

Eh....I would say that is going too far.  They had plenty of "good" actors in the prequels, and they were mostly unable to polish the turds (Ewan simply proves the rule, or something).  I guess what I am saying is that these turds required less polishing.  Which is not to say that the actors didn't do good work with what they got, because they did.  But none of them had to deal with the shit that Hayden and Natalie had to deal with, that was asking too much of anyone.

Fair enough
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Reply #593 on: January 17, 2020, 01:36:01 PM

All the Star Wars actors have been handed shit.  The original trilogy was new enough we didn’t care, and after that it was big enough to bring on at least a few non-shit actors.

I’ma go out on a limb and say I kinda agree with Khaldun: while it has flaws, TLJ was the direction the franchise *should* have taken.    Unfortunately it’s not what the fandom wants. 

As a holder of Disney stock and father of an 11-year old Star Wars addict, I will hold my nose and just hope to be entertained in some way.  Any art we get at this point will likely be accidental.

(And this should maybe go in the Mandalorian thread but if Disney doesn’t put in a baby Yoda meet-n-greet photo op at Disneyworld they are throwing money away)

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Khaldun
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Reply #594 on: March 04, 2020, 08:40:42 PM

Ah me, speaking of things you all are kind of wrong about, I hope you have been following the stupid hilarity of the official Star Wars social media accounts pooping out information that was supposed to have been in the film to make it coherent only actually wasn't because something something.
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