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Author Topic: Star Wars 9 : The Rise of Skywalker  (Read 3829 times)
Draegan
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Reply #70 on: April 17, 2019, 10:24:50 AM

The issue with all these films is that all the main characters never got together until the end of 8. Then it had too many characters. Rose need to take a back seat so there is only Poe, Finn, Rey, Droids and Chewie. Rose never needed to be a character at all. From what we're hearing there is going to be some adventure they are having together. I'd love for an artifact hunt in the first act, the realization of it's truth in the second act, and confronting that truth in the third act.

Then the the Jedi Skywalkers can flee the Galaxy and live happily ever after as the galaxy burns.

I would like to see Kylo slowly become corrupt (physically) throughout the movie. But I doubt that'll happen.
01101010
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Reply #71 on: April 17, 2019, 12:36:24 PM

The only lineage in Star Wars is the Skywalker family.

Rey is probably going to be the parents of no one famous but her parents probably had some relation to some story in the past. Or whatever. Making her a famous scion of a old character is just stupid.

Unless she's Kylo's brother. Then it'll rhyme, like poetry.

Unless you count the millions of Fett clones alonng with Jango/Boba...  why so serious?

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
Riggswolfe
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Reply #72 on: April 17, 2019, 02:47:18 PM

Abrams has said  that he will "honor" Johnson's reveal on Rey's parentage but that "there's more to the story than you've seen".

So here's what I think is going to happen: we're back to Rey-is-a-Kenobi--the *granddaughter* of Obi-Wan, so that her parents were indeed sucky and horrible 'nobodies' who abandoned her but her grand-dad was still someone important.

There really isn't anybody else meaningful in the previous films who can have a secret child where the revelation doesn't flat out retcon Johnson's "your parents were nobodies". I suppose Palpatine could have had a secret child who then had Rey. Or Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, I guess. Or midichlorian holy ghosts could be making all sorts of ladies pregnant.


I think the easiest way for this to work would be an Uncle Owen/Aunt Beru style situation. The people she thought were her parents weren't. They were her guardians but they went down a bad path and abandoned her. I get what Rian was trying to do with her parents being nobodies but it completely derailed the setup from the prior movie that made it seem like her parents were indeed important, or at least, known figures.

I'm still holding out a kernel of hope she is Anakin/The Chosen One reincarnated and Palpatine is back so "I will finish what you started" from The Force Awakens takes on a whole new meaning.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
eldaec
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Reply #73 on: April 17, 2019, 02:53:50 PM

I dunno man, Star Wars is basically about family lineage. Can't really see a way around that.

This is a bizarre take - a set of films featuring celibate warrior monks, whose power is explicitly explained in a way unrelated to genes, is all about lineage.

But lots of people seem to view it that way. People are weird.

Also fucking love the idea that TLJ 'derailed' a JJA plan. Seriously guys.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Ruvaldt
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Reply #74 on: April 17, 2019, 05:14:33 PM

I dunno man, Star Wars is basically about family lineage. Can't really see a way around that.

This is a bizarre take - a set of films featuring celibate warrior monks, whose power is explicitly explained in a way unrelated to genes, is all about lineage.


Was it ever explained in the original trilogy that the Jedi were celibate?  I'm asking because I honestly don't remember.  I know the prequels mention that Jedi aren't allowed to have families, but if someone watched and grew up on episodes 4, 5 and 6, I think they'd absolutely think it was a series about family lineage.

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
Sir T
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Reply #75 on: April 17, 2019, 05:34:22 PM

Nope, not a dicky bird. In fact, there was no big deal made of the fact that Luke was the son of a Jedi, Kenobi just said that Luke was the son of a Jedi rather matter of factly and Uncle whatzit line about him bieng too much lkike his father was said matter of factly as though it was not a huge secret.

The first I heard of it was in Knights of the Old Republic 2, and even then the Guy who left the Jedi order over the fact he wanted to love someone said it passion was sacrosanct but love would not lead to the dark side. And my reaction was "ok, that's bollox, of course they would not be celibate." And forgot about it. I had no idea people were tying themselves in knots to shoehorn that in.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
Samwise
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Reply #76 on: April 17, 2019, 05:49:58 PM

I like Mike Stoklasa's theory that the prequels' very bizarre attitudes toward families and romantic love (the Jedi have to be celibate because falling in love leads to the Dark Side, etc) are because Lucas wrote the prequels while he was getting over his divorce.   Ohhhhh, I see.

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TheWalrus
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Reply #77 on: April 17, 2019, 06:12:35 PM

The first I heard of it was in Knights of the Old Republic 2, and even then the Guy who left the Jedi order over the fact he wanted to love someone said it passion was sacrosanct but love would not lead to the dark side. And my reaction was "ok, that's bollox, of course they would not be celibate." And forgot about it. I had no idea people were tying themselves in knots to shoehorn that in.

Jolee loved a Sith. Bit different.

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #78 on: April 17, 2019, 07:46:10 PM

Technically, if you go by what's said on screen the Jedi don't have to be celibate. They just can't form attachments. In other words, the Jedi are the deadbeat parents of the Star Wars universe. "Some dude in a robe banged me a few times and left. I haven't seen him since and my daughter is levitating all her toys..."

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Raguel
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Reply #79 on: April 17, 2019, 09:03:28 PM

I dunno man, Star Wars is basically about family lineage. Can't really see a way around that.

This is a bizarre take - a set of films featuring celibate warrior monks, whose power is explicitly explained in a way unrelated to genes, is all about lineage.


Was it ever explained in the original trilogy that the Jedi were celibate?  I'm asking because I honestly don't remember.  I know the prequels mention that Jedi aren't allowed to have families, but if someone watched and grew up on episodes 4, 5 and 6, I think they'd absolutely think it was a series about family lineage.

I'm old enough to have seen them in the original release. I don't think the movies are about family lineage; we didn't even know there was a family lineage for almost 2/3 of this trilogy. (Although I don't remember being all that surprised about the twist; maybe it was spoiled for me, I don't remember. )
Samwise
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Reply #80 on: April 17, 2019, 09:22:44 PM

They did at least set up in ep 4 that Luke was going to be a Jedi because he inherited a lightsaber from his father.  But looking back at ep 4 they didn't make a big deal out of Luke being able to use the force because he was one in a million; it was sort of suggested that Obi-Wan could have taught this stuff to any yokel.  Ep 6 is where they first brought in "the force is strong in my family".

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Goumindong
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Reply #81 on: April 17, 2019, 09:35:27 PM

As a thematic question the movies are about movies(specifically action serials). The force is all hippie in philosophy because Lucas grew up around it. But aside from that aspect of it the force is "the force of plot". The main character has it because he is the main character. The villain has it because he is the villain. And it works because the movie needs it to.

Setanta
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Reply #82 on: April 17, 2019, 10:50:28 PM

They did at least set up in ep 4 that Luke was going to be a Jedi because he inherited a lightsaber from his father.  But looking back at ep 4 they didn't make a big deal out of Luke being able to use the force because he was one in a million; it was sort of suggested that Obi-Wan could have taught this stuff to any yokel.  Ep 6 is where they first brought in "the force is strong in my family".

... and then EP1 brought midichorians to the table  ACK!

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lamaros
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Reply #83 on: April 18, 2019, 12:14:33 AM

I dunno man, Star Wars is basically about family lineage. Can't really see a way around that.

This is a bizarre take - a set of films featuring celibate warrior monks, whose power is explicitly explained in a way unrelated to genes, is all about lineage.

But lots of people seem to view it that way. People are weird.

Also fucking love the idea that TLJ 'derailed' a JJA plan. Seriously guys.

The original three movies are all about the family, how can you avoid seeing that?

Expect poison from the standing water.
Cyrrex
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Reply #84 on: April 18, 2019, 12:45:08 AM

Not only are they about family, they are about the fact that the Jedi Order failed because it was WRONG about exactly this stuff.  The falling of Anakin to the dark side was to show us just how wrong the Jedi were about forming attachments.  If they just would have supported him instead of repeating their dogma to him, things would have turned out differently.  Luke proved it by ignoring the fuck out of yoda and Obi Wan.  The new series is just as much about Luke despairing over exactly these facts, thinking he failed, and then Yoda coming in at the end and telling him “no, dude, you had it right all along, just keep it going”.

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Goumindong
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Reply #85 on: April 18, 2019, 12:25:23 PM

I dunno man, Star Wars is basically about family lineage. Can't really see a way around that.

This is a bizarre take - a set of films featuring celibate warrior monks, whose power is explicitly explained in a way unrelated to genes, is all about lineage.

But lots of people seem to view it that way. People are weird.

Also fucking love the idea that TLJ 'derailed' a JJA plan. Seriously guys.

The original three movies are all about the family, how can you avoid seeing that?

In that they had familiy in them or that they were thematically about family? A movie having families in them doesnt make the movie about family.

The Star Wars films were not about the relationship of a son to his father. The son and father only exist in relationship because it makes a good twist in the vein of the old space serials. The movies work just as well, line for line, if we had used the original “No, Obi-Wan killed your father” with the same thematic result.

And the new films are only about familiy insomuch as they reject the old space serial ideals that revolve around heredetary prowess
Riggswolfe
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Reply #86 on: April 18, 2019, 01:49:05 PM




The Star Wars films were not about the relationship of a son to his father. The son and father only exist in relationship because it makes a good twist in the vein of the old space serials. The movies work just as well, line for line, if we had used the original “No, Obi-Wan killed your father” with the same thematic result.



Except they don't. Had they gone with "Obi Wan killed your father" which was, to my knowledge, a fake line put in so if it leaked it'd be the wrong spoiler, Return of the Jedi would have been a much different movie. For one thing, Luke wouldn't feel the need to redeem Vader, for another "a certain point of view" doesn't work when it's "you killed my dad?"

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Sir T
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Reply #87 on: April 18, 2019, 10:21:54 PM

To be honest, it never worked in the first place. I called BS when I heard it first. It would have been better if he had said "if I told you the truth you would never have had the confidence to be a Jedi/would have never been able to run from Vader when you saw him" or something like that. it was just there because Lucas wanted to Retcon something and to say something "profound."

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
Goumindong
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Reply #88 on: April 19, 2019, 02:56:09 AM




The Star Wars films were not about the relationship of a son to his father. The son and father only exist in relationship because it makes a good twist in the vein of the old space serials. The movies work just as well, line for line, if we had used the original “No, Obi-Wan killed your father” with the same thematic result.



Except they don't. Had they gone with "Obi Wan killed your father" which was, to my knowledge, a fake line put in so if it leaked it'd be the wrong spoiler, Return of the Jedi would have been a much different movie. For one thing, Luke wouldn't feel the need to redeem Vader, for another "a certain point of view" doesn't work when it's "you killed my dad?"

If vader turned him to crime then it would be true that he killed him from a certain point of view.

The very very end of ROTJ may not work totally straight but the rest does. And it doesnt change the fact that its not a story about family its a story “about a family” in the same sense of “its a story about a person”.
Khaldun
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Reply #89 on: April 19, 2019, 07:01:23 AM

This is making me realize what an interesting difference it would have made if Obi-Wan was hanging around Tatooine to train Luke in the Force not because Luke was magically strong in the Force due to heredity but simply because Obi-Wan was stone cold enough to realize that Vader might have been put off balance by facing his own son, considering how his obsession with Padme was the route to the Dark Side in the first place. And then Luke would have been resentful at being used at the same time that he would have realized that someone had to stop his old man considering how much murdering of good people and Jedi children and so on he had done.
Draegan
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Reply #90 on: April 19, 2019, 07:19:56 AM

Lucas is a hack writer, he would never have thought that up.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #91 on: April 19, 2019, 11:40:39 AM

To be honest, it never worked in the first place. I called BS when I heard it first. It would have been better if he had said "if I told you the truth you would never have had the confidence to be a Jedi/would have never been able to run from Vader when you saw him" or something like that. it was just there because Lucas wanted to Retcon something and to say something "profound."

Interestingly, psychologists love to study Vader and most of them agree that he has various disorders and among them is what I'd call a split personality but has a much more technical term. Vader truly thinks of Anakin as a separate person who is now dead and likely Obi Wan came around to that thinking to. Doesn't change that the line was just a way to smooth over a retcon that likely happened but it actually fits with the psychology of Vader and probably Obi-Wan too.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Khaldun
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Reply #92 on: April 19, 2019, 07:22:32 PM

The thing is, we can ALL easily think of a better version of the same basic, beautiful ingredients of ANH + ESB. That's what keeps this all going--it's a sandbox with really great toys. I mean, fuck, everyone loves to make fun of the taxation etc. plots of the prequels, but even a marginally more imaginative person could have made that shit really compelling as a backdrop to people with laser swords fighting each other and having doomed love affairs and shit.
eldaec
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Reply #93 on: April 21, 2019, 04:20:34 AM

I dunno man, Star Wars is basically about family lineage. Can't really see a way around that.

This is a bizarre take - a set of films featuring celibate warrior monks, whose power is explicitly explained in a way unrelated to genes, is all about lineage.

But lots of people seem to view it that way. People are weird.

Also fucking love the idea that TLJ 'derailed' a JJA plan. Seriously guys.

The original three movies are all about the family, how can you avoid seeing that?

I see that family is a part of the OT, in particular about faith in each other and challenging the assumptions of your birth ('too much of his father in him' 'that's what I'm afraid of'). But it is not a story about throughbred breeding.

Rey overcoming the assumption that she is nothing if her parents were nothing fits the template better than 'oh yeah the reason she is powerful is that Obi Wan and Palpatine had a kid in a deleted scene'.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #94 on: April 23, 2019, 04:49:51 AM

Except they don't. Had they gone with "Obi Wan killed your father" which was, to my knowledge, a fake line put in so if it leaked it'd be the wrong spoiler, Return of the Jedi would have been a much different movie. For one thing, Luke wouldn't feel the need to redeem Vader, for another "a certain point of view" doesn't work when it's "you killed my dad?"

Don't let George Lucas gaslight you. When he made Star Wars he had no idea that he would be able to make a trilogy. The production of Star Wars had in fact been such a disaster that no one had any hope that it would make even its production budget back. Fox had to fight Lucas on everything including the title and the movie basically only works because his own team started to ignore him and extensively reworked everything from the VFX to the script and because his wife re-edited the movie to turn it into something comprehensible that is not 4 hours long.

Also the original script didn't include the father/son relationship because it was more or less a retelling of Kurosawa's movie "Hidden Fortress", a completely different story from what made it into the movie. The whole Vader/Skywalker theme stems more from Lucas' love for Kurosawa and Japanese cinema where the whole "apprentice needs to fight their master" is a standard trope. Lastly Lucas couldn't have been afraid of spoilers, for one spoiler culture didn't exist in 1977, also since no one thought there would be a sequel to Star Wars no one planned for it. They began to rework the mythology only when it became apparent that the movie was such a success that sequels were warranted. The modified title crawl that added "Episode IV" wasn't added until the 1979 re-release in anticipation of The Empire Strikes Back. By that time they knew that they'd make at least three films.

Episode I- III is what happens when Lucas has complete creative control. Episode IV - VI happened because his production crew curb stumped most of the bullshit he brought to the table. He isn't even credited as a screenwriter for Episode V and is only co-credited as screen writer (with Lawrence Kasdan) for Episode VI. He's only director for IV and has no producer credit for the entire original trilogy.

Star Wars was a success despite Lucas' involvement and most of the things he has claimed in interviews since then have been retcons of his own involvement, vision and development history of the movies.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #95 on: April 23, 2019, 05:05:43 AM

The fact that many of the things we now think are canon and have always been part of the Star Wars universe didn't even come from Lucas but from the original West End Games Star Wars Role Playing game speaks volumes about Lucas' involvement and talent for universe building.

The WEG rulebooks became the official reference for most of the in universe lore and background. So much so that they were recommended reading by Lucasfilm and they are still cited to this day and considered to be canonical. Even Disney kept it as one of the works that survived the gutting of the EA when they rebooted it. When they hired Timothy Zahn to write what became the Thrawn trilogy they sent him copies of WEG rule books as reference and asked him to base his story around the background material.

Lucasfilm even based their own style guides and writers' guides on the reference material from those books.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #96 on: April 24, 2019, 02:40:02 PM

Except they don't. Had they gone with "Obi Wan killed your father" which was, to my knowledge, a fake line put in so if it leaked it'd be the wrong spoiler, Return of the Jedi would have been a much different movie. For one thing, Luke wouldn't feel the need to redeem Vader, for another "a certain point of view" doesn't work when it's "you killed my dad?"

Don't let George Lucas gaslight you. When he made Star Wars he had no idea that he would be able to make a trilogy. The production of Star Wars had in fact been such a disaster that no one had any hope that it would make even its production budget back. Fox had to fight Lucas on everything including the title and the movie basically only works because his own team started to ignore him and extensively reworked everything from the VFX to the script and because his wife re-edited the movie to turn it into something comprehensible that is not 4 hours long.

Also the original script didn't include the father/son relationship because it was more or less a retelling of Kurosawa's movie "Hidden Fortress", a completely different story from what made it into the movie. The whole Vader/Skywalker theme stems more from Lucas' love for Kurosawa and Japanese cinema where the whole "apprentice needs to fight their master" is a standard trope. Lastly Lucas couldn't have been afraid of spoilers, for one spoiler culture didn't exist in 1977, also since no one thought there would be a sequel to Star Wars no one planned for it. They began to rework the mythology only when it became apparent that the movie was such a success that sequels were warranted. The modified title crawl that added "Episode IV" wasn't added until the 1979 re-release in anticipation of The Empire Strikes Back. By that time they knew that they'd make at least three films.


I have little doubt that Vader being Luke's father came up during the writing of the Empire Strikes Back. I'm also quite familiar with how close Star Wars came to being an utter disaster and how the edit is what saved the movie. His ex-wife gets far to little credit as does Gary Kurtz. However, I did look it up and I was right. "Obi-wan killed your father" was in fact, a fake line used to prevent spoilers from leaking out. There wasn't an internet back then but there were fan magazines and stuff like Starlog that might've shared the leak. Only Mark Hamill, the writers and of course James Earl Jones knew the actual thing Darth Vader said to him before the movie premiered. There's actually a very funny interview with Mark Hamill where he talks about Harrison Ford or Carrie Fisher turning to him and going "You knew this? You're an asshole for not telling me." during the movie's premiere. I think it was Carrie Fisher.

https://www.soundandvision.com/news/100104hamill/

Quote
But, for example, your big scene, one of the classic cinematic moments when Darth Vader divulges his true identity, is no longer a revelation.

It's such a great moment! The fake line that was put in there just to try and keep the secret was "You don't know the truth: Obi-Wan killed your father!" But as much as I enjoyed leaking false information, it was a wonderfully hard secret to keep because (Irvin) Kershner, the director, brought me aside and said "Now I know this, and George knows this, and now you're going to know this, but if you tell anybody, and that means Carrie or Harrison, or anybody, we're going to know who it is because we know who knows."



« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 02:45:17 PM by Riggswolfe »

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #97 on: April 24, 2019, 04:55:03 PM

Somehow I thought you referred to Obi Wans line in Star Wars where he tells Luke that Vader killed his parents.
Draegan
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Reply #98 on: April 25, 2019, 12:19:38 PM

Me too.
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