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Author Topic: Joker (2019)  (Read 4127 times)
HaemishM
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Reply #105 on: October 08, 2019, 10:06:33 AM

Not that the incels have any sort of grasp on reality whatsoever, but they are reading a fuckload into the message of the movie that was not even remotely there if that's their takeaway. The character literally hallucinates a girlfriend and decries everyone being so rude to everyone else.

Rendakor
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Reply #106 on: October 08, 2019, 10:10:53 AM

Has anyone called this Falling Clown yet?  Because I think we should.

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Phildo
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Reply #107 on: October 09, 2019, 08:47:47 AM

Needs a briefcase and a shotgun, but that's a great start.
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Reply #108 on: October 09, 2019, 08:50:30 AM

Needs a briefcase and a shotgun, but that's a great start.

Well that might be skirting close to copyright infringement. Maybe a stapler and a pair of coke-bottle glasses.  why so serious?

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Reply #109 on: October 09, 2019, 09:23:53 PM

Not that the incels have any sort of grasp on reality whatsoever, but they are reading a fuckload into the message of the movie that was not even remotely there if that's their takeaway. The character literally hallucinates a girlfriend and decries everyone being so rude to everyone else.
Yeah, I haven't seen this yet, but these chucklefucks find meaning in shit they shouldn't.  They also glorify the Joker in The Dark Knight.  Do you think Nolan made it because he had "a huge persecution complex and more than one axe to grind"?  Not going to judge it based on how that crowd reacts to it.

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Reply #110 on: October 10, 2019, 12:07:10 AM

I liked it.  It's a pretty obvious movie, it doesn't surprise but doesn't really suffer for that.  It is of course well acted, and well made. 

Not being a comic book reader I don't have that attachment to the prevalent idea that the Joker works best without a backstory.  I certainly liked the Ledger take and the idea of the mysterious force for chaos, but this take also works well for me.  The only flaw really is that while you get a lot of the crazy, there isn't really any indication of genius.  It is hard to picture this version as a criminal mastermind.

I do like the social commentary, as obvious as it was, I would like to see more in this vein.  A follow up Batman years later that challenges his noblesse oblige and how he uses his wealth versus the chaos of criminals whose main crime is poverty in a shitty uncaring world would interest me.  It's not very comic bookish though and would probably be hated so, I wont hold my breath.
eldaec
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Reply #111 on: October 10, 2019, 06:15:22 AM

Joker doesn't have no backstory.

He has dozens.

This added yet another.

I don't even understand why that would be a problem or why people bring it up.

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Khaldun
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Reply #112 on: October 10, 2019, 07:47:54 AM

He really doesn't. Not that this should prevent anyone from trying.

The basic story is that he was the Red Hood, he fought Batman, he fell into chemicals, he went nutso.

But his name, how he got into the Red Hood, all that? The only person who really wrote into that space was Alan Moore in The Killing Joke, and he was at some pains to suggest that maybe the Joker is misremembering or has other backstories etc.

The first modern Batman movie went a different way and had the Joker being a prominent gangster who also happened to be the guy who killed Batman's parents. The comics have occasionally played around with that--DC went out of its way a while back to try and cast doubt on the "it was Joe Chill who killed Batman's parents" thing, but since then Chill's been reinstalled as the one who did the deed.

That's about it except for various Elseworlds, etc.
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Reply #113 on: October 10, 2019, 08:38:14 AM

I'm on the side that says the joker has no real origin. Alan Moore killing joke is effectively cannon because of Barbara Gordon becoming Oracle. But considering that specific origin never gets expanded upon by later writers I think the general DC census is that the Joker just 'is' and any attempt to explain him, while not a bad thing, can be written over by different artist over time because the point is that "the joker is crazy" and not "he is a product of X".

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eldaec
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Reply #114 on: October 10, 2019, 08:53:41 AM

I guess my point is that people thinking continuity between batman stories is important are wrong.

Joker can reimagined endlessly.

And this is reasonably normal thing in most forms of story telling. People get fussy around comics for some reason.

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Reply #115 on: October 10, 2019, 09:41:13 AM

The official guidance by DC is that the Joker doesn't have a canonical origin and that authors are free to come up with something they like or to ignore his origin at all.
HaemishM
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Reply #116 on: October 10, 2019, 10:50:51 AM

And this is reasonably normal thing in most forms of story telling. People get fussy around comics for some reason.

That's what having 80 years with a character will do - the character and his surrounding mythos become icons and have all the properties of commercial brands. People got real pissy when they changed the flavor and packaging of Coca-Cola for much the same reason. It changed something fundamental to their pasts.

Khaldun
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Reply #117 on: October 10, 2019, 02:08:11 PM

Grant Morrison's take is that all versions of the Joker are real and in continuity--he's suggested alternatively that either the Joker is more than one person or that the Joker periodically reinvents himself completely and that's part of his mental state--that he's got no real fixity and maybe no real memory of a pre-Joker self.
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Reply #118 on: October 10, 2019, 02:46:03 PM

I guess my point is that people thinking continuity between batman stories is important are wrong.

Joker can reimagined endlessly.

And this is reasonably normal thing in most forms of story telling. People get fussy around comics for some reason.
People get fussy about all sorts of adaptations; even canon sequels can piss people off (hai2u Last Jedi).

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Reply #119 on: October 10, 2019, 08:15:14 PM

I love when nerds pretend their not nerds
"Well I don't care about continuity! STFU"

Comic book characters have 80+ years of history but that just means that at any give decade or adaption spawns a new era of fans who ferociously defends "their version" of batman or whoever because that's the best version of batman and of course the last 8 decades supports that view. Its part of the culture, otherwise no one would care about a Joker movie. There is a reason why no one liked the Suicide Squad version of the Joker, no one in 80 years of batman history could reconcile that depiction to anything remotely familiar. Its not that people carry the entire history of a character with them, people cherry pick the lore they want and discard the rest and that goes especially with comic books. Nothing is truly cannon if it sucks. People will drop a series or wait until someone else reinvents. 

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eldaec
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Reply #120 on: October 11, 2019, 06:51:33 AM

Arguing over which version was the worst pretty much requires reinterpretation.

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Reply #121 on: October 11, 2019, 09:59:23 AM

Arguing over which version was the worst pretty much requires reinterpretation.

It's by design. Writers reinvent characters in order to draw attention to their work and attract new fans. Otherwise no one would care about Alan Moore or Frank Miller.

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HaemishM
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Reply #122 on: October 11, 2019, 11:02:39 AM

You are wrong and HOLY SHIT you are wrong.

eldaec
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Reply #123 on: October 11, 2019, 02:10:20 PM

Reinventing characters isn't drawing attention to work, it is the actual work.

Espeicially in this case.

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jgsugden
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Reply #124 on: October 11, 2019, 02:26:15 PM

Haemish - I'd like to hear why you think characters are reinvented - both as to why the artists/writers want to do it and as to why the company agrees to produce it.

I think there are as many times that the business has driven a reinvention ("Bob, give us your take on Captain Enema - nobody likes anything that has been done with him recently, but he has a lot of name recognition.  We want to better monetize that recognitiion.") as there have been times that an artist had an idea that they convinced the suits to allow them to release.

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eldaec
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Reply #125 on: October 11, 2019, 03:36:34 PM

What you are describing is a business driving a commission.

I mean sure, but the other half of that thought is usually 'and we think that will produce art good enough for people to want to pay for it' not just 'MUHAHAHAHAHA! The fools will be forced to pay us for this sacrilege! <twirl moustache> <snort coke off of hooker>'.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 03:38:54 PM by eldaec »

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
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HaemishM
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Reply #126 on: October 11, 2019, 03:45:06 PM

Characters get reinvented for all sorts of reasons - at places like DC and Marvel especially, I'd wager it's usually a business decision first and an individual writer's decision second. Now if the writer is a superstar in comics or is a big name in movies/fiction/tv, then it might be based on that writer's choice but only because the business side of editorial thinks "hey Joss Whedon on an X-Men book might expand comics beyond our normal nerd audience." Reinvention among Marvel and DC especially will happen because they need to boost a character's flagging sales but the character is important enough that they don't want to just shitcan the character. See countless changes with Superman such as red/blue Superman, Batman gets his back broken and gives the mantle to Azrael, Flash gets rebooted as Wally West because Barry Allen Flash had poor sales, Green Lantern Hal Jordan turns evil leading to Kyle Rayner Green Lantern, etc. The most input a writer who isn't a superstar gets in their choice of reinventing a character is "we need a Capt. Shmoopy book, who wants to take him?"

Speaking as a writer myself, I'm one who would try to maintain some respect for the source material especially if you are talking about iconic characters owned by long-term publishing ventures. You'd never see me do stories like making Gwen Stacy have love children with Norman Osborn because it's just ridiculous on its face. For characters that are part of larger universes where continuity is pretty strong, I wouldn't want to do something that so completely went against that character's brand as to render his past stories moot unless it was part of some universe line-wide reboot like New 52. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with just writing good Batman stories that don't significantly alter the status quo. If you take on that character as a writer in the present, accepted continuity (and not some special one-shot or limited series), then you do owe the character's history some sense of verisimilitude.

Khaldun
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Reply #127 on: October 11, 2019, 08:15:54 PM

Just as an example, I kind of like Brian Michael Bendis when he's good, but he really grated on me more than normal when he tried writing Doctor Doom, because he really just did not 'read in' on the character at all. He wrote his dialogue like he was a kind of bitchy gangster rather than a grandiose, pretentious, somewhat chillingly Machiavellian figure. It's ok if you want to write someone confronting Doom saying "you're just a gangster, stop the pretense", but not if you write Doom as if he's already what you imagine someone saying he is. It's either lazy or tin-eared. Either is bad creatively.

If you're inventing a character, it's all on you. If you're handling a character that precedes you, it's not. If you decide to write a new Oz book in the style of L. Frank Baum, you have to respect Baum's whimsical tone, otherwise why bother? If you decide to write a subversion/corruption of the Oz books, then you're still a bit tethered to Baum's style--otherwise, what's the point? Write something completely new. Any adaptation or homage has a responsibility to pay attention to its source material.
HaemishM
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Reply #128 on: October 12, 2019, 01:09:56 AM

Brian Michael Bendis has one character voice, and he hammers it over and fucking over again. When it works (like on his Daredevil work, or Miles Morales, or his original indie crime stuff), it's great. Every other time, it is shit of the highest order because every character sounds like they are out of Seinfeld. His Avengers work was godawful. His Doctor Doom as Iron Man series was better than it should have been - he actually was able to calm down his normal voice so that Doom didn't sound as bad as he normally does.

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Reply #129 on: October 13, 2019, 08:23:08 PM

The Grouch skit was great. SNL nailed it.

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