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Author Topic: Marvel's Inhumans  (Read 4569 times)
Ironwood
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Reply #70 on: January 10, 2018, 03:10:50 AM

oooooookay.  I'm guessing Cable got sillier since I last read.

I knew about Stryfe, Scott and Jean Parents and the origins of the virus, but I truly hope you're making the rest of that shit up.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
NowhereMan
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Reply #71 on: January 10, 2018, 11:43:48 AM

I remember at some point he took a young clone of Jean Grey into the future. Probably to protect her from being assassinated in the past.

Also there was that whole thing from Age of Apocalypse where 'Nate Grey' survived through and you had a Cable without the technovirus and life experiences running around who I think was such a potent telekinetic he couldn't actually use his powers because he'd kill himself.

I really left it all in the early 2000's though so its entirely possible it's gotten similar.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Khaldun
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Reply #72 on: January 10, 2018, 11:59:34 AM

oooooookay.  I'm guessing Cable got sillier since I last read.

I knew about Stryfe, Scott and Jean Parents and the origins of the virus, but I truly hope you're making the rest of that shit up.


I am if anything understating it. Though I will say that in Cable's more recent appearances, they appear to have decided that they're just not going to say anything about his backstory--he's just going to be a gruff mutant guy who likes big guns.
HaemishM
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Reply #73 on: January 10, 2018, 01:46:10 PM

The child he took into the future wasn't a clone of Jean Grey. She was the first mutant born after the "No More Mutants" hex thing from the Scarlet Witch (that started the whole House of M idiocy) that kept mutants from being able to breed. Cable stole her after her birth blew up a town, took her into the future and raised her, then brought her back to present time. She took the name Hope Grey and was the whole reason behind the X-Men vs. Avengers idiocy because the Phoenix Force was coming to Earth to use her body for some reason, so 5 of the X-Men became hosts for it instead (Cyclops, White Queen, Namor, Colossus and who the fuck remembers) and fucked a bunch of shit up, including flooding Wakanda and turning Cyclops into a villain.

Yeah, it was that fucking stupid. The X-Men continuity is so goddamn bad, if anything needs a complete and utter New 52 style reboot, it's the goddamn mutants and X-Men.

Ironwood
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Reply #74 on: January 10, 2018, 04:02:16 PM

 Facepalm

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HaemishM
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Reply #75 on: January 10, 2018, 05:24:48 PM

You know what makes it even worse? After the whole Hope Grey causes the X-Men vs. Avengers thing with the Phoenix Force, the aftermath and new status quo of the X-Men after that?

IT GOT WORSE. It got worse on every fucking level. Because after that, we had the original Beast go back in time to bring the original 5 X-Men forward in time so that they could have a talk with current-day Magneto-esuqe Cyclops, then he couldn't send them back so they stayed and now it appears they aren't even the X-Men from this timeline but they also don't say they are from a different Earth/parallel universe, just a different timeline.

And then it got worse from there.

Teleku
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Reply #76 on: January 10, 2018, 07:24:47 PM

If I ever found a comic book company, first rule is that any writer who even starts to say 'time travel' gets pistol whipped.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
HaemishM
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Reply #77 on: January 10, 2018, 08:24:10 PM

Thing is I LIKE time travel stories. But goddamn if they are allowed to happen all the time in a situation where the premise doesn't revolve around time travel, they just end up wrapping around into themselves so that the characters are so far up their own asses that they disappear.

Khaldun
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Reply #78 on: January 10, 2018, 08:45:36 PM

The reason they're popular is basically plot-mechanical. It's the only way to have characterization happen in a human, dynamic way with characters who are intellectual property and who need to stay relatively stable over decades otherwise--you show their alternate-universe doubles and time-travel future selves. In a Dickens story, that's the catalyst for the character to change. In a comic book story, it's the excuse for the character to remain the same. But over time, people start to fall in love with the other futures and alternative dimensions, and want stories about those--and then they start to be something you *also* have to keep stable. Which means then you do more time travel and alternate-universe stories to get yet more chances at showing your characters develop.
Sir T
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Reply #79 on: January 10, 2018, 09:41:23 PM

Of course, the alternative is to pretend the character is actually someone else and the REAL guy is the new version. Like the Spider-man clone Saga dreck. Or press a reset button and change the character. Like Spider-man selling his marriage to the devil in to save the life of a 200 year old woman, because the writer said he wanted to break up the marriage to Mary Jane, but he didn't want Spider-man to be immoral and get a divorce... (no I'm no joking)

"The devil...the prowde spirite...cannot endure to be mocked. - Thomas Moore
Teleku
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Reply #80 on: January 10, 2018, 10:32:29 PM

Thing is I LIKE time travel stories. But goddamn if they are allowed to happen all the time in a situation where the premise doesn't revolve around time travel, they just end up wrapping around into themselves so that the characters are so far up their own asses that they disappear.
I get that, but while it can lead to some good story's, once you allow it you open Pandora's box of shitty writers raping the source material over and over again.  Time Travel: Not Even Once.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
NowhereMan
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Reply #81 on: January 11, 2018, 09:48:28 AM

Thing is I LIKE time travel stories. But goddamn if they are allowed to happen all the time in a situation where the premise doesn't revolve around time travel, they just end up wrapping around into themselves so that the characters are so far up their own asses that they disappear.
I get that, but while it can lead to some good story's, once you allow it you open Pandora's box of shitty writers raping the source material over and over again.  Time Travel: Not Even Once.

Time Travel, outside of novels or the like, only works where it is the grounding premise of a show. Once you allow it to become part of the long term plot rather than a tool in the stories it's pretty much guaranteed to produce an unfollowable mess.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Sir T
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Reply #82 on: January 11, 2018, 10:24:45 AM

It KINDA works in Dr Who, or at least used to - because it was used as the bridge to largely self contained stories, and was relatively rarely used for time travel within a story.

"The devil...the prowde spirite...cannot endure to be mocked. - Thomas Moore
Father mike
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Reply #83 on: January 11, 2018, 11:47:00 AM

I quit X-men cold turkey in 1992 after reading for 15 years.  Whenever I get an itch to pick it up again, I conveniently stumble across something like the last two pages, and the urge goes away. Completely.

I would like to thank Vladimir Putin for ensuring that every member of the NPR news staff has had to say "Pussy Riot" on the air multiple times.
Khaldun
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Reply #84 on: January 11, 2018, 12:17:40 PM

Yeah. It's just impossibly convoluted. And now the comic-book Inhumans are too, after decades of being relatively 'clean' in terms of the major characters and underlying mythos.
palmer_eldritch
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Reply #85 on: January 12, 2018, 05:23:22 AM

The child he took into the future wasn't a clone of Jean Grey. She was the first mutant born after the "No More Mutants" hex thing from the Scarlet Witch (that started the whole House of M idiocy) that kept mutants from being able to breed. Cable stole her after her birth blew up a town, took her into the future and raised her, then brought her back to present time. She took the name Hope Grey and was the whole reason behind the X-Men vs. Avengers idiocy because the Phoenix Force was coming to Earth to use her body for some reason, so 5 of the X-Men became hosts for it instead (Cyclops, White Queen, Namor, Colossus and who the fuck remembers) and fucked a bunch of shit up, including flooding Wakanda and turning Cyclops into a villain.

Yeah, it was that fucking stupid. The X-Men continuity is so goddamn bad, if anything needs a complete and utter New 52 style reboot, it's the goddamn mutants and X-Men.

Yet she looked like Jean Grey and the Phoenix wanted her for its host and nobody knew who her parents were, they died when she was a baby and all the records were destroyed, so maybe she WAS a clone of Jean Grey or a reincarnation of Jean Grey or something like that, it was a big mystery for a couple of years until it fizzled out without being resolved and she faded into the background.

I wouldn't want a reboot myself as they always seem to end up making things worse, but I wouldn't mind if they got rid of the time travel and alternate timelines for a few years and just did stories about living at the mansion (in Westchester County, not Limbo), saving the world and playing baseball. Going back to the basic premise of the Claremont era would be fine with me.


Emma has a vision of Hope as Dark Phoenix. How? Why?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 05:25:06 AM by palmer_eldritch »
Khaldun
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Reply #86 on: January 12, 2018, 08:35:35 AM

The basic problem is that they can't simply reboot to the "mutant prejudice" scenario. Grant Morrison took that as far as it could go--it really only works if lots and lots of people are being born everywhere as mutants, and if you do that seriously, you end up with a universe that is really fundamentally different (or you have repeated waves of genocide, which is also fundamentally different). Otherwise, you can't even begin to explain why ordinary people would hate and fear mutants but be pretty chill with Asgardian gods, people who were bitten by radioactive spiders or were injected with an experimental drug, people who were changed by a cloud of Terrigen gas, people who are just very well-trained martial artists who like to wear skin-tight duds and fight criminals in public places, etc.   MU civilians should either hate and fear everybody with super-powers (I mean, look at how much damage they all do) or love them unless they're bad guys--sorting them into mutants and non-mutants is kind of incoherent, especially since the origins of many MU super-heroes aren't general public knowledge.
HaemishM
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Reply #87 on: January 12, 2018, 08:57:02 AM

The basic problem is that they can't simply reboot to the "mutant prejudice" scenario.

Except that's EXACTLY what they are trying to do. The status quo after the Inhumans vs. X-Men war is that the mansion is now in Central fucking Park, the team is being run by Kitty Pryde and they are following the story beats of the Claremont mutant prejudice to a T, complete with popular bigoted media figure secretly using Sentinels and whatever to try to discredit mutants and kill them. The "original" young X-Men are in their own book and they have the son of Wolverine (but from a parallel world, not this universe's version) with them and the young Beast is now dabbling in the mystic arts. Oh and they are being led by Jean Grey and Magneto (but Magneto is in hiding, it's not public knowledge of his involvement).

I fucking wish I was making this shit up.

Khaldun
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Reply #88 on: January 12, 2018, 09:32:57 AM

Yeah, I know. I appreciate what they're trying to do with Blue and Gold--it's better than the shitfest the preceded it--but it feels incredibly forced.
Teleku
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Reply #89 on: January 12, 2018, 10:00:48 AM

Yeah, the mutant prejudice thing was a great story angle for its era, but it makes zero god damn sense in context for both the marvel world as it is now and modern times in general.  I understand it's hard to shift the entire concept of a series since its basically been the bedrock principle since it started, but that's what happens when you make something an analogy for real life events.  They need to find a new angle.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #90 on: January 12, 2018, 10:13:46 AM

Every time I think I should get back into comic books you guys remind me that the money is better spent on booze, I lose less brain cells this way.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
HaemishM
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Reply #91 on: January 12, 2018, 10:31:36 AM

Bah, don't get me wrong, there's actually some good stuff being written at Marvel. I've yet to find anything in the X-Men line (other than Wolverine - which is actually Laura Kinney now instead of Logan) that is worth the effort I've put into reading it. Most of the Avengers and Ultimates books are good. Daredevil has been good. The new, Pakistani Ms. Marvel has consistently been good. Champions, Nova, Hulk and the Totally Awesome Hulk are all good.

The Captain America books (both Steve Rogers and Sam Wilson) are... well, they are certainly trying something different. Making Steve Rogers young again but also having his timeline messed with by a sentient Cosmic Cube and the Red Skull so that he's always been a Hyrda sleeper agent is... interesting. I'm not sure it's good, per se. I'm reserving judgement until I see the end of the Secret Empire stuff that is the culmination of Steve Rogers, agent of Hydra. The Sam Wilson book wants to be good, but the writer is much too interested in making a political point, specifically about conservative racist politics, and it gets in the way of good storytelling at times.

Khaldun
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Reply #92 on: January 12, 2018, 12:01:05 PM

Champions feels like it's too on the nose, trying too hard. America is even worse in that respect; I also thought Hellcat was suffering from the same. Squirrel Girl and Ms. Marvel feel about right in that respect.
Fordel
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Reply #93 on: January 15, 2018, 08:53:45 PM

X-Men books went from passable shit to utter shit once they decided to kill off 99% of the mutants or whatever. They took every ongoing story and axed it for WE ARE GOING EXTINCT (AGAIN)ANDAGAIN)) forever and ever. I'm not sure they will ever actually recover from that.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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