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Author Topic: Thor: Ragnarok  (Read 12777 times)
Mandella
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Reply #140 on: February 09, 2018, 03:27:07 PM

They kind of covered that, in the sense that Asgard was built over the "neutron star balanced in an Einstein-Rosen Bridge" wormhole, the other end of which was the Devil's Anus. And this was the source of power for the "godlike" abilities of the High Asgardians like Thor and Hella.

--Dave

I'm okay with "godlike." They were talking themselves up as actual gods. "You are the god of lightning, not the hammer."

But I won't belabor the point -- it's minor to most people's enjoyment of the series I imagine, and also in my own head I take the entire movie as something Thor drunkenly related in a tavern somewhere (after they escape from whatever that was at the end -- and yes I think I know), so okay he kinda inflated everything a bit.

As a side-note, saying my powers come from The Devil's Anus -- yeah I'd probably just claim to be a god too and skip that part.
Sir T
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Reply #141 on: February 12, 2018, 06:53:29 PM

So your saying Thor isn't a god, he is just full of shit?  why so serious?

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TheWalrus
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Reply #142 on: February 13, 2018, 02:45:16 AM

No, he's not clergy.

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jgsugden
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Reply #143 on: February 13, 2018, 05:03:05 PM

God is just a label. 

In the MCU, magic is a different form of technology.  They make that clear in Thor and Dr. Strange.  Being a God basically means you have technology that is embedded into you.  Hulk might start calling himself a God. 

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Khaldun
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Reply #144 on: February 13, 2018, 07:17:54 PM

Though note how much of what's going on in the MCU involves McGuffins that are NOT inside of beings, but are instead objects of power.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #145 on: February 13, 2018, 08:18:56 PM

Though note how much of what's going on in the MCU involves McGuffins that are NOT inside of beings, but are instead objects of power.
And we have lampshading of objects that are both (Jane Foster and the Aether, Vision and the Mind Infinity Stone).

--Dave

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jgsugden
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Reply #146 on: February 14, 2018, 02:52:36 PM

Though note how much of what's going on in the MCU involves McGuffins that are NOT inside of beings, but are instead objects of power.
Yeah - and someone might call themselves a God when they possess those items (whether attached to them, worn, carried or applied rectally).  It is just a label.  Thus my hedging with the word "basically". 

Labels do not mean much of anything. 

If I were to start a discussion of Gods, it would begin with the idea of worshippers.  As there is no real discussion of Worshippers of these Asgardians, I think the God label is odd, but the comics never really spend too much time on Thor's worshippers.


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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #147 on: February 14, 2018, 04:13:55 PM

It's silly to label anything in the MCU as science, since their idea of science obeys basically zero laws of physics.

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Reply #148 on: February 14, 2018, 04:22:24 PM

There is an actual pantheon. Their just heavily tied to the idea of being super powered primordial beings with the power of cosmic which is basically magic for the syfy aspect of the Marvel Universe. Power Cosmic allows guys like Adam Warlock and Silver Surfer to be viable characters in a universe were galactic spanning empires spam spaceships capable of destroying life on earth in 24 hours. Which is the same power of the physical gods of the marvel universe such as the Celestial, the Watchers, etc.

Guys like Doctor Strange manipulate the power cosmic to do magic but its more of a gateway to the power that flows between dimensions as oppose to say how Odin uses it, who has the potential to melt a planet and generally wields it with the force of a hammer to break or build. They (the marvel pantheon) are god's but they're not GODS and they are definitely unique to the way marvel doesn't really like talking about magic but too lazy to not call it magic and treat several aspects of their actual science like magic. DC has a much better distinction and most of their magic.y stuff is defined as being separate from their space opera stuff and other genres with very few cross overs.

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Reply #149 on: February 14, 2018, 04:54:19 PM

There have been a number of times in the comics where Thor in particular has been shown to lead humans who worship him as a God, he calls himself a God and such.

Threash
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Reply #150 on: February 14, 2018, 07:47:53 PM


I am the .00000001428%
jgsugden
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Reply #151 on: February 15, 2018, 09:07:21 AM

There have been a number of times in the comics where Thor in particular has been shown to lead humans who worship him as a God, he calls himself a God and such.
Yes - the comics don't spend too much time on the idea of him having worshippers, but they have gone there on occasion (most of the stories with worshippers Ihave seen are set in other time periods, even).  My point is that the "Church of Thor" is not something that drives Thor comics on a regular basis the same way that Jane Foster, the Warriors Three, Donald Blake, or any of the other commonly appearing elements resurface as an integral part of the Thor story for prolonged periods.

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Threash
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Reply #152 on: February 15, 2018, 09:38:34 AM

The way i always saw it was that Thor is the god of lightning because of his lightning powers, he doesn't have lightning powers because he is the god of lightning.

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Mandella
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Reply #153 on: February 15, 2018, 01:50:08 PM

There have been a number of times in the comics where Thor in particular has been shown to lead humans who worship him as a God, he calls himself a God and such.

Which is why I try to always say "in the MCU." The comic canon is more often than not not MCU canon, thank Feige. Hell, in the original comics Thor was some sort of astral being that aggressively possessed some poor crippled human, robbing him of years of life and memory.

I've always been happy with the MCU's presentation of magic as just super high technology from aliens that understand how to manipulate multidimensional power sources that we can barely conceive of. My observation after Thor:Ragnarok is that Waititi came damn close to presenting the high ranking Asgardians as more metaphysical gods -- creatures who believe their power gives them actual rightful dominion over the elements and that which relates to said elements.

I admit that presenting themselves that way would be quite the effective tool to keep control of the "lesser developed" inhabitants of the Nine Realms, which may have been just what Waititi intended since he was presenting the Asgardians as having a history of violent conquest that they had grown away from. So Odin chastening Loki in Avengers was to remind him that they had socially evolved away from such methods, but then in his dotage Odin reverted to the old times in his head, rambling on about the condition of godhood to his impressionable son.

And of course Hela has been pinned up since those violent old days, and has never even had the chance to progress from the old Dominionist bullshit of the early days of Asgard.

Sure, I can buy that.
Brolan
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Reply #154 on: March 11, 2018, 03:46:58 PM

I waiting for this to get to the "box" since I missed it in theaters.  I was surprised at how good it was.  Liked the increased humor, but they strayed dangerously close to pure camp at times.
Ironwood
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Reply #155 on: March 12, 2018, 04:28:59 AM

Rewatched this last night for Mothers Day.

It's still funny. I love how funny it actually is.  Oddly, I'd missed the first time around how Cate manages to deliver her lines as if Taika just said 'Hey, have fun with it' and she totally seems to.  I think the first watch, I was mostly in 'oh right, baddie chewing scenery, don't pay much attention' but for some reason on the second watch she just cracked me up.

Also, Get Help is possibly the finest thing Chris and Tom have ever done.

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TheWalrus
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Reply #156 on: March 12, 2018, 10:21:26 AM

Oh god. Get help. That was so great.

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Soulflame
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Reply #157 on: March 12, 2018, 11:37:48 AM

Get help is pretty funny, but I like this one a bit more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpy22Yosp04
Ironwood
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Reply #158 on: March 13, 2018, 06:47:00 AM

It's the Brick in Get Help though, where they're at the end fighting and desperate on the Bifrost and they're about to die from the God of Death and a Dog and Loki turns to Thor and says with Genuine fear and desperation "I'm not doing Get Help."

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Shannow
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Reply #159 on: March 13, 2018, 09:14:04 AM

It's the Brick in Get Help though, where they're at the end fighting and desperate on the Bifrost and they're about to die from the God of Death and a Dog and Loki turns to Thor and says with Genuine fear and desperation "I'm not doing Get Help."


This.

I've watched three times in the last two days (my own rewatch, watching with daughter,now wife is watching) and enjoyed it immensely each time. So many good lines.

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Mandella
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Reply #160 on: March 13, 2018, 12:17:43 PM

If you haven't yet watched the deleted scenes, do so. I haven't seen them all myself but what I've had time to watch are dementedly over the top, even for this movie.

"Dumbo, Dumbo! DUMBO!!

 awesome, for real
jgsugden
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Reply #161 on: March 13, 2018, 03:20:37 PM

I'm waiting for one of these movies to have a fight set in Disneyland where they totally destroy the park.  Maybe we'll get that in Thor 4 ... which I'm betting will be 2021 with a recast Jane Foster picking up the story...

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #162 on: March 18, 2018, 03:05:34 AM

The part that always kills me in this movie is the scene with Banner leaping out of the spaceship. "You wanted to know who I am? Watch this."

*cut to wolf charging across the bridge and Banner hitting the bridge. Wolf sniffs his broken body then moves on*

It kills me everytime.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Ironwood
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Reply #163 on: March 18, 2018, 03:28:41 AM

It also looks really, really sore.   awesome, for real

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Teleku
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Reply #164 on: March 18, 2018, 12:45:13 PM

I just purchased a massive and overtly expensive high end TV.  To break it in, watched this finally.

Loved it.  Going full GoG with Thor is the best way to handle its lore for movie adaptation.  Jokes had me laughing all the way through, and it was just pure entertainment.  Yet another reason why Marvel is so much better in the movie realm.  DC would have tried to play this shit straight, and it would have been awful. 

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Ironwood
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Reply #165 on: March 18, 2018, 03:48:51 PM

That's such a big part of the Marvel success.  I watched that WRETCHED Fantastic Four remake recently and I once again just couldn't believe how fucking awful it was.  At every turn you could see how Marvel would have fixed it.

Didn't help that Killmonger was in it.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Reply #166 on: March 18, 2018, 04:31:28 PM

in a world where dc movies are as good as marvel movies

it would require they retcon the characters and powers for every single fucking hero and villain in the entire brand

it's impossible

and the only time a DC movie is good is when a random guy is like "I'm gonna win an oscar playing the joker but first, suicide"

dc sucks
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #167 on: March 18, 2018, 05:06:10 PM

They've done passable and enjoyable cartoons just fine.

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Khaldun
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Reply #168 on: March 18, 2018, 05:30:36 PM

I keep coming back to this, but the MCU has tons to do with Feige. They got a guy to be the central figure who wasn't embarrassed by comics. DC/Warner got guys who wanted to think of themselves as great DEEP thinking visual auteurs etc who were embarrassed by comics. If you've watched that horrible wank thing Snyder made that was his personal dream project, you got it right away: this is a guy who is a middle-of-the-road art school guy who has convinced himself he's a fucking genius and no one wants to tell him otherwise. But Goyer, etc., are the same way: dudes who have been handed the wheel who don't like the car they're driving.

Basic takeaway is: find a talented guy but make sure he likes the stuff you're asking him to adapt.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #169 on: March 18, 2018, 07:48:12 PM

I keep coming back to this, but the MCU has tons to do with Feige. They got a guy to be the central figure who wasn't embarrassed by comics. DC/Warner got guys who wanted to think of themselves as great DEEP thinking visual auteurs etc who were embarrassed by comics. If you've watched that horrible wank thing Snyder made that was his personal dream project, you got it right away: this is a guy who is a middle-of-the-road art school guy who has convinced himself he's a fucking genius and no one wants to tell him otherwise. But Goyer, etc., are the same way: dudes who have been handed the wheel who don't like the car they're driving.

Basic takeaway is: find a talented guy but make sure he likes the stuff you're asking him to adapt.


There's a reason Iron Man 1 did as well as it did, Jon Favreau was a comic fan himself.

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Reply #170 on: March 19, 2018, 04:10:44 AM

All of that has been very important, yes.  But it's also how they approach adapting ridiculous comic book characters for the big screen.  Things like Guardians of the Galaxy and Thor are ridiculous camp.  I would have told you 10 years ago that there is no way they could film them without looking utterly stupid.  So instead, they acknowledged how ridiculous the settings are, and ran with them as comedies.  Make fun of the actual IP itself.  The other Thor movies aren't the best, but they still made sure to keep a good amount of jokes and physical comedy in to set the right tone.  Ragnarok is how they should have handled the Franchise from the get go.  I mean, part of the marvel formula is that all of their movies are fairly light hearted and infused with humor to balance things out.  But they seem good at identifying the IP's they can tell more serious stories with, vs the ones they need to adapt a different way, which is a big part of the success.

DC, on the other hand, has no range between movies.  It's always standard 'serious hero is serious', with the grim dark ramped up lately.  Which is hard to pull off when you have characters that look totally silly when removed from the pages of a comic and put into a filmed real world setting.  If they were smart, they would give Aquaman the exact same treatment as Thor.  However, we are going to watch them spend millions of dollars trying to convince me god damn Aquaman is totally cool and bad ass later this year.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 04:15:36 AM by Teleku »

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Ironwood
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Reply #171 on: March 19, 2018, 04:42:30 AM

I actually don't agree.  If Thor had taken a different tack in the first movie, the Avengers film wouldn't have worked with him in it.  Imagine the current Ragnarok Thor attempting to do the heavy Avengers Brother and Responsibility stuff.  It plain wouldn't work.  The only reason they get to lighten up Thor now is because of what came before.  Thor Ragnarok works so well because it's comic relief.  It's the comfort of known characters and the funny duality of them acting the same but different.  It simply would NOT have worked otherwise unless they'd let Branagh do his thing and let Tom and Chris work themselves into the characters.

Though I will say that the humour was always there (thinking of the Pet Store scene here) ready to be unleashed.  I suspect Dark World was so bad because apart from 2 Broke Girls and Mental Streaker, it was pretty unfunny.


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Teleku
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Reply #172 on: March 19, 2018, 09:57:52 AM

Ah, that's fair.  I was concentrating on the lore itself rather than the larger world, and I agree with your assessment.  Still, as you say, after the first movie it would have worked better (IMO) if they had upped the comedy, rather than going more serious like they did.  Maybe this was a (good) over reaction to that, heh.

I still think the point is overall valid in how you approach adapting really campy comic shit to movies.  Again, Aquaman is going to be a thing.  A serious thing.  Maybe they'll prove me wrong, but arrrrrrggg

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
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Ironwood
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Reply #173 on: March 19, 2018, 10:20:51 AM

Yeah, well, I'm with Schild on DC and Movies.  It's truly terrible.

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Goumindong
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Reply #174 on: March 19, 2018, 01:45:25 PM

I keep coming back to this, but the MCU has tons to do with Feige. They got a guy to be the central figure who wasn't embarrassed by comics. DC/Warner got guys who wanted to think of themselves as great DEEP thinking visual auteurs etc who were embarrassed by comics. If you've watched that horrible wank thing Snyder made that was his personal dream project, you got it right away: this is a guy who is a middle-of-the-road art school guy who has convinced himself he's a fucking genius and no one wants to tell him otherwise. But Goyer, etc., are the same way: dudes who have been handed the wheel who don't like the car they're driving.

Basic takeaway is: find a talented guy but make sure he likes the stuff you're asking him to adapt.


Nah. Snyder liked the stuff he was adapting. Itís just the stuff he was adapting was grimdark shit from a butt.

The Watchmen, his best movie, is a pretty decent adaption of the comic. The Watchmen is also the least grimdark book he attempted to adapt.

The problem isnít that the DC folks donít like comics itís that they like shit comics.

The folks at Marvel are barely even adapting comics compared to what is happening at DC. At Marvel they take the theme (maybe) and the broad strokes heroes and villains and tell a newish story. Theyíre willing to change beats, motivations, etc to make things work for a different audience.
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