Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 13, 2018, 03:31:23 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
Donate! | Shop: Amazon
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Movies  |  Topic: Thor: Ragnarok 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Thor: Ragnarok  (Read 14247 times)
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 39557

Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you and other troops you control.


WWW
Reply #175 on: March 19, 2018, 02:38:21 PM

DC movies have improved because Goyer and Synder are not as involved as they were during the BVS shit, but the creative guy in charge is Geoff Johns. He is good comics writer but he does suffer from a fixation on darkening up stories that didn't need it.

NowhereMan
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6249


Reply #176 on: March 21, 2018, 02:47:27 PM

I'd say from Goum's post the difference is that the Marvel guys wanted to capture the fun and excitement of the comics and the characters. Snyder and the DC guys wanted to capture the grimdark moments of some takes and line for line reproductions of some of the big double page splash screens from the graphic novels.

One of those, surprisingly, didn't make for great blockbuster cinema.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Lakov_Sanite
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7587


Reply #177 on: March 21, 2018, 04:54:36 PM

I'd say from Goum's post the difference is that the Marvel guys wanted to capture the fun and excitement of the comics and the characters. Snyder and the DC guys wanted to capture the grimdark moments of some takes and line for line reproductions of some of the big double page splash screens from the graphic novels.

One of those, surprisingly, didn't make for great blockbuster cinema.

Nolan was able to capture grimdark DC, the recent crop of dceu movies are a weird hybrid of wanting to be both grimdark and flashy blockbuster and end up failing on both.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 39557

Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you and other troops you control.


WWW
Reply #178 on: March 21, 2018, 05:14:06 PM

Nolan did so well with the Batman series because he treated it like a film noir crime movie that had a guy in a bat costume in it. The DCEU are trying to make superhero movies based on works that specifically deconstructed the concepts of superheroes (Watchmen/Dark Knight) with a filmmaker/screenwriters who just aren't good enough to understand what that means beyond the surface, or why that's not a good approach to tentpoliing a big budget franchise.

I still maintain there is nothing inherently wrong with DC characters that precludes them from making as good a set of movies as Marvel. Sure they are more over the top in some instances. Warner Bros. executives are the root cause of the movies being what they are - when they succeed, it's in spite of the WB execs (Wonder Woman) not because of them.

jgsugden
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3267


Reply #179 on: March 21, 2018, 05:32:43 PM

Wonder Woman is a good example that things can be done right.  While not perfect, the imperfections are things we can see how to work around. 

However, DC does have two problems that Marvel doesn't need to fear as much:

1.) Dated characters.  A lot of the DC characters were made so long ago that they are inherently dated.  They have been 'updated', but a lot of them still have a core that feels older than Marvel, in general.
2.) Excessive power levels.

It can be done, but it is just harder. 

What can you tell me about gaming and fun in Charlotte, NC?
Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27661


Reply #180 on: March 22, 2018, 04:39:57 AM


I still maintain there is nothing inherently wrong with DC characters that precludes them from making as good a set of movies as Marvel.


No, you're still wrong.  Superman is a God.  There's no Good Film that can come of it without other Gods or Green Rocks.

Hell, you know me ;  I had a small liking for Superman 2.  It had some great performances.  But it was really Independence Day 2.  Big Aliens invaded and other Big Aliens stopped them.  Meanwhile, humans were of little or not consequence.

Sure, you can then take Superman away from Earth to make a film and, yeah, that might work, but then you've basically got another Alien-type movie with shit all grounding it.  And that's not counting where they've now taken Superman, as he's now just a shitweasel because of Robin Hood Prince of Fucking Thieves and his moral cowardice.


Also, Flash is a God.  A God we hobble to make us feel comfortable.  Batman, through the ages, has pretty much turned into an unbeatable God and Wonder Woman turned into a God Also.

I have no interest in Bible movies.  Fuck DC characters.  Fuck them.

Also, Sugden ;  Dated Characters ?  That's NOT the issue.  I was the worlds biggest hater of 'Captain America' and LOOK at what Marvel did.  Look at what they fucking did.  He's dated as FUCK and older than the hills in comic terms.  Yet, they took people who believed, put them behind the scenes and then put Chris front and centre with some fantastic support.  He's now one of my favourite heroes and he's Captain Fucking America, previously everything that was wrong with America in my eyes.

Anyway.  No idea why I'm posting.  This is known.  I've been around long enough.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9751


Reply #181 on: March 22, 2018, 07:51:03 AM

There is no problem that can't be solved. But it takes recognizing what you've got to work with. DC's universe doesn't benefit from 'realism', it benefits from being more fantastic, more scaled-up, more iconic. Sure, they're gods--so do something with that.

Or 'hobble' them without saying so, but if you do, *have fun* with them. Because that's the other thing they are: a bit simpler, a bit more child-like, a bit more elemental. And there's a workable take in there too--that doesn't mean simplistic or child-like, it just means that what you're doing with DC's heroes should be a different kind of fantasy storytelling than otherwise.
Threash
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8065


Reply #182 on: March 22, 2018, 10:06:43 AM

A big problem DC had is that we were just coming of three really good Batman movies that followed a decade or so of ok to bad Batman movies. The guy that was supposed to tie everything together was the only one on their entire roster that was already played out. Ideally the start of their cinematic universe would be 2-3 Batman movies, but they were unlikely to be superior to the Bale versions.

I am the .00000001428%
Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9751


Reply #183 on: March 22, 2018, 07:42:46 PM

Basically, Batman shouldn't ever set the tone for the rest of the DC Universe: when he's combined with other superheroes, he's best as a contrast. EVEN if that's silly, as in the Brave and the Bold cartoon--Batman as paragon, etc.
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 39557

Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you and other troops you control.


WWW
Reply #184 on: March 22, 2018, 08:57:16 PM

The problem with the DC movies is they treated Superman as God - they went with that whole conceit and then tried to deconstruct it in a grimdark fashion, and that's interesting as a one-off Elseworlds What-If type story but it's drab as dishwater as part of a franchise. It also leaves you no real room to play with the character in any sort of interesting way. But there have been many good Superman stories where they've brought his power down to the more beatable level (he's vulnerable to magic, electricity, nukes). Batman is a God on the other side of the equation, the perfection of humanity (which really means he's the ultimate nerd's power revenge fantasy).

There are good DC stories to be told, but not by the people they have in charge, and not with the execs who greenlight scripts and set out a strategy for a franchise universe without really having clue one what that means, or the patience to let it develop organically. They've changed directions so much just in the 5 years since Man of Steel was released at least 4-5 times. You can tell it's a problem because of how many directors they have gone through before movies have even started filming.

NowhereMan
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6249


Reply #185 on: March 23, 2018, 04:48:49 AM

Yeah, saying Superman is a God shouldn't be a limitation on film versions. He can be as fast as a bullet, he can be strong enough to lift a tank but he doesn't need to be capable of circumnavigating the globe in the time it takes someone to blink. Make his power manageable so there can be real challenges and don't make solving those challenges dependant on him using his powers

Superman's challenge should really be about winning people over, saving the day without making moral sacrifices. Hell the Dark Knight Rises handled that kind of predicament well but with Superman, ultimately, he should be resisting the urge to just snap a neck.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9751


Reply #186 on: March 23, 2018, 05:45:26 AM

Basically there are only a few classic superhero story hooks, even Marvel heroes:

a) why shouldn't I take over the world (or me and my pals) to save it from itself? why would that turn out badly?
b) if I can save cats from trees, banks from robbers, women reporters from falling off buildings, why can't I save everyone? how do I live with the fact that people still die?
c) if I can save cats from trees, etc., why can't I save myself and my loved ones? why can't I have everything I want? would it be so bad if I was selfish now and again?
d) why do I feel compelled to do this stuff, considering how little it really changes things? am I the one who is broken or messed up? why do I have to be the guy who guards humanity against threats it doesn't know about or understand that only I can stop? will I ever get relief from this?
e) why does [my archfoe] not want to behave responsibly with his powers/capabilities? what's wrong with him/her/it? can I afford to let him/her/it run free, considering how dangerous they are?
f) I have powers/abilities and I know what's right. I'm going to do whatever it takes. Oh shit, I guess no man is an island and I have to depend on other people/love other people now and again.
g) The bad guy has an intricate plan and a dynamic personality and is more interesting than I am; my only job is to foil it all at the very end, probably through dumb luck/clean living.
h) I am better than I know: I can't act with power until I learn to love myself/uncover my potential/believe in myself. I have to be better and smarter. I need to unlock new powers or have a better technique.
i) I messed up once and people died. That's why a) I'm obsessive to the point of being dangerous and have to learn not to be; b) I'm burned-out and reclusive and have to be brought back to being responsible again
j) I've been doing this for a long time, but my enemies just came up with a terrifying new plot/objective or have finally found a way to stop me/hurt me; I need allies or new powers or to step up my game
k) I serve a cause; my enemies serve theirs. Neither of us is perfectly right; there are moral compromises on both sides. Maybe we can work something out/turn against our causes. Maybe we actually like/love each other, or could.
i) I'm having fun and occasionally I save a cat from a tree in the process. My life is great! Except for that one day when shit really hits the fan. Suddenly I realize that this isn't a game.
j) I will have my vengeance! Wrong things have been done to me!

Some of these are one-time story hooks--the "I'm better than I know" is usually an origin story; "I messed up once" is usually a kind of "reboot origin" story. Some of them are ongoing story hooks (why am I compelled/will I never get some rest). Some of them are twists in ongoing serials (can my enemy and I actually evolve and build a relationship?)

DC heroes are just as open to most of these. The "why am I compelled" is only good, for example, if you care about the character as a person--it doesn't work if the character is abstract, generic, bland or whiny. Old-style Silver Age Barry Allen was just a nice white guy police scientist--if he'd started whining suddenly that he was tired of saving people, you would have been like, "Why? What do you need more time for? The only thing interesting in your life is fighting Captain Cold." But when Iris Allen was murdered (seemingly), you could suddenly sympathize when he said, "Fuck this shit, I had a perfect domestic life and it got my wife killed, I'm done with it." The "why am I compelled" is more potent when the character seems to have a real personality with real personal dilemmas, or when their heroism costs them personally almost every time they suit up.
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10643


Reply #187 on: March 23, 2018, 05:24:31 PM

Yeah, saying Superman is a God shouldn't be a limitation on film versions.

Not just film versions, Lois and Clark managed 87 episodes and it is still the best Superman.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ≠assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27661


Reply #188 on: March 24, 2018, 03:15:15 AM

I don't think anyone's saying it couldn't work as a romantic comedy.   why so serious?

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Father mike
Terracotta Army
Posts: 459


Reply #189 on: March 24, 2018, 11:07:04 AM

Basically there are only a few classic superhero story hooks, even Marvel heroes:

a) why shouldn't I take over the world (or me and my pals) to save it from itself? why would that turn out badly?
   .
   .
   .

Did you lead with this one on purpose?  Because, as far as I can tell, it's the story Snyder REALLY wants to tell.  In other words, Injustice: Gods Among Us

But it will never happen, for two reasons.  First, like Haemish said, grimdark Superman works as a one-off, but even casual movie-goers know that's not really the core of Superman's character.  It would damage the franchise too badly.

Second, Snyder just can't bring himself to do it, because, if there's one thing less artistically prestigious than a comic-book movie, its a comic-book movie based on a comic that's a prequel to a video game.

I would like to thank Vladimir Putin for ensuring that every member of the NPR news staff has had to say "Pussy Riot" on the air multiple times.
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10643


Reply #190 on: March 24, 2018, 01:55:42 PM

But mostly because Zac Snyder is bad at making films.


"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ≠assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10643


Reply #191 on: March 24, 2018, 02:00:52 PM

Basically there are only a few classic superhero story hooks, even Marvel heroes:

THIRTEEN DIFFERENT STORIES HERE

Well ok, but without much effort you just thought of double the number of stories that internet smart arses generally claim exist in all genres combined.

So I'm going out on a limb to say the main limitation on WB's work isn't the number of unique stories that it is possible to devise.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ≠assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9751


Reply #192 on: March 25, 2018, 10:14:25 AM

You can do Superman-takes-over-the-world as a one-off without being grimdark--that was basically the plot of the really bad Superman IV: The Quest for Peace. Basically just have Supes try to do something more than he usually does, get into a heap of trouble where he realizes he can't do everything, and then give him a way to climb down semi-gracefully.

Though I'd love to see someone really good do Miracleman, except that Alan Moore would probably go on a murder spree if someone tried.
Soulflame
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5733


Reply #193 on: March 25, 2018, 10:48:53 AM

Ridiculous.  Moore wouldn't go on a murder spree.  The people involved would be eaten by giant snakes.
Teleku
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9702

http://tinyurl.com/d89qk7g


Reply #194 on: March 25, 2018, 11:18:45 AM

If he hasnít gone on a murder spree already, he never will.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 39557

Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you and other troops you control.


WWW
Reply #195 on: March 25, 2018, 02:15:25 PM

Alan Moore is just fine with people shitting all over his work in film - I think he sent all his Watchmen money to Dave Gibbons and told Zak Synder to go fuck himself.

Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Movies  |  Topic: Thor: Ragnarok  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC