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Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi  (Read 52469 times)
Samwise
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Reply #1155 on: September 11, 2018, 11:15:22 AM

Maybe for me it stems from knowing that the last film was a JJ Abrams movie and he loves him some mystery boxes.  He sets up lots of mysterious things that will theoretically be explained later on ...

Abrams may love his mystery boxes, but he doesn't give a flying fuck about explaining them later on.  Doubly so when he's working with Lindeloff

Yeah, I thought we'd all learned from Lost that a JJ mystery box is never actually going to be satisfying to open.  Which is why I don't care at all about the Knights of Ren.  Oh, it was a JJ thing?  Who cares then, any big reveal about their backstory would just be disappointing.  They fell into a big hole and died.  NEXT.

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Reply #1156 on: September 11, 2018, 12:35:51 PM

Touche
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Reply #1157 on: September 11, 2018, 12:43:04 PM

The Knights of Ren isn't a huge item, I just didn't like the cavalier way the director put it off. Like continuity means absolutely nothing across the movies, which is why I think Disney was INSANE for pulling in different directors. Of course something will get lost and the tone will change, it's inevitable.

What we have now is two very different and very disjointed movies with two wildly different tones. One is a story of Hope. Hope in searching out the past, trying to find legendary heroes from the past to save the present, coming to terms with the demons of your past with the hopes of change or victory.

The next movie comes in and says, "Hey have you heard about failure? Get ready!" The basic theme of the movie is: You better be okay with failure because that's our currency in the Rebellion, fuckheads. Your parents are nobodies, Luke doesn't care about any of you because he's a fuckup as a trainer, Finn and Rose are riding around on failure horses, and Poe is going to even fail at trying to overthrow the other failures with his failed rebellion. IT'S FAILURE ALL THE WAY DOWN.

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Reply #1158 on: September 11, 2018, 12:44:11 PM

And Phasma falls into a big hole.  Bye.
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Reply #1159 on: September 11, 2018, 02:11:39 PM

Some of you guys are fucking nuts, really. You're fine with stuff like the Venture Brothers resurrecting shit that was mentioned eight years ago in passing and making it a huge part of its mythology, but you're going to cry all the time because JJ Abrams said something once and Rian Johnson decided not to go there. Like, what?

Well, yes goddamnit, because one is a giant pile of cinematic failure that can't keep continuity straight from movie to movie because it doesn't even want to bother trying, and the other is a well-crafted satire of the very geek culture that has caused us to kvetch for 34 fucking pages about a mediocre Star Wars movie.

Knights of Ren isn't a big deal, it's just one more example of laziness on the part of the writer/director. He couldn't be arsed to think of even dropping 2 lines into a movie explaining where those guys went (or 2 lines explaining how Snoke got to where he is or why he's such a big deal, or how the First Order came into being or is able to maintain a Galactic Empire despite having all the competence of kids that eat paste). If the rest of the narrative had been constructed well, no one would give a shit that the Knights didn't show up or get any explanation. If the prequels had been constructed well, no one would have spent a decade or more trying to explain the terrible politics of that whole storyline.

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Reply #1160 on: September 11, 2018, 06:30:49 PM

For I have no mouth and must scream, or whatever: you have, I know, forgiven other movies similar failures.

Maybe because some of them appeared in 1977 and 1983 and you were young. I dunno.

I think the thing for me is that Johnson's alleged failures--which I think are storytelling successes and make me wonder about the storytelling abilities of people who think otherwise--are not cynical. Nor are they Abrams' avowed hostility to Trek fans that led to Into Darkness--another movie some of you forgave despite storytelling sins that eclipse anything we're talking about here. It's just him saying, "I don't think it makes sense to do something narrative with a throwaway element from the last movie if it doesn't fit into the narrative". This is basic good creative instincts at work here.

Look tell me, you all: what is the story of the Knights of Ren, whatever the fuck they are, that proceeds from the movie before that fits in this movie's narrative? What were you imagining? Tell me what you wanted to hear about Snoke that would have satisfied you? Do a bit of scripting: what's the story you had in your head?

This is different than the fanfic envisioning of Ren's origins--I was perfectly happy to share my own theory of her as a Kenobi, and surprised at how happy I was to hear that wasn't the case. I didn't really theorycraft these other things--what did you WANT that wasn't there? Don't tell me just, "something"--if you're this hot about it, you must have had something in mind.
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Reply #1161 on: September 11, 2018, 06:51:47 PM

Psycho.

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Reply #1162 on: September 11, 2018, 07:17:24 PM

I think you may be the only one really focused on the Knights of Stimpy.  It is one of several omissions an changes in this movie, but it isn't one I've seen anyone hang their hat upon... mostly, it is noted on the long lists of disrespectful changes.

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Reply #1163 on: September 11, 2018, 08:02:27 PM

Look tell me, you all: what is the story of the Knights of Ren, whatever the fuck they are, that proceeds from the movie before that fits in this movie's narrative? What were you imagining? Tell me what you wanted to hear about Snoke that would have satisfied you? Do a bit of scripting: what's the story you had in your head?

This is different than the fanfic envisioning of Ren's origins--I was perfectly happy to share my own theory of her as a Kenobi, and surprised at how happy I was to hear that wasn't the case. I didn't really theorycraft these other things--what did you WANT that wasn't there? Don't tell me just, "something"--if you're this hot about it, you must have had something in mind.


For some of the things like Snoke - I'd actually have settled for ANYTHING. The mystery of him was fine in the TFA, because we could expect that some of those things would be answered in later movies or at least would be answered before his quite sudden and untimely death. We were given to understand Snoke was this great and powerful being who led the First Order but neither of these things made sense based on what we were shown. I mean, I've talked about this fucking ad nauseum. If you don't agree, fine, you liked it and I just don't fucking understand why. You seem completely oblivious to some very obvious structural issues with the thing and continue to try to white knight the fucking movie.

It wasn't the worst movie ever made. But it was a really poorly written, poorly structured movie in its own right, in addition to the problems it introduced as the middle part of a trilogy that ignored or otherwise contradicted much of what was in the first movie in the trilogy.

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Reply #1164 on: September 11, 2018, 08:24:39 PM

OK, maybe I can try this again without mentioning any specific points.  TLJ's disregard for or playing down of so many ideas set up by TFA diminishes the first film.  That's a shitty thing to do in a sequel, and I don't imagine anyone went into this film expecting no exposition on the ideas developed in film one.

The quality of said mysteries or their answers is not even worth debating when the answer we're given to all of them is "who cares?"
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Reply #1165 on: September 11, 2018, 09:17:58 PM

A sequel that says, "Everything you've thought is wrong" is something a lot of people seem to like. That's sitting right close to "who cares"? It's a slight tonal difference.

I flip on this a bit because I *remember* what we talked about in 1980 when we were waiting for ESB. It wasn't about the background on the elephant-note spy, or about the backstory on Jabba, or Greedo's life history. We didn't want to know why droids weren't allowed in some bars--it was sufficient that they weren't. We didn't need to hear what the Kessel Run was. We didn't need to see what a T-16 was, as if that mattered. We wondered a bit about Biggs---but you know, the movie was better for most of his scenes being cut. We didn't need to hear in the next movie what a Grand Moff was. That there was an Emperor--Vader's boss!--was spine-chilling but we didn't need to know if that was going to get spelled out. We didn't need to know exactly what the Force was or what powers you got if you levelled up. We didn't need to have it spelled out exactly what Obi-Wan meant by "being more powerful than you can possibly imagine". But we could have pissed all over ESB if we wanted to for all of this--who exactly was Jabba? Wait, the Emperor is just some guy with an eyeball problem? What does that mean, son of Skywalker? Wait, are there no consequences for losing the Death Star? Wait, is it ok to just choke everyone, really? Is Luke sad about Biggs? How did Han and Luke become generals, just by winning the Death Star thing? Is Obi-Wan more powerful than Yoda? What is going on?

We just dealt with it. And liked the movie.
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Reply #1166 on: September 11, 2018, 09:24:24 PM

Ultimately, the bullshit chase blew up the movie for me. It made absolutely no sense, at any level, and gave me too much time to think about how it made no sense. And it wasn't like it was an off screen backdrop to the real story, because the Finn/Rose trip to Casino planet was almost as bad. There were three narrative tracks in the second act, and only one of them worked.

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Reply #1167 on: September 11, 2018, 09:40:48 PM

A sequel that says, "Everything you've thought is wrong" is something a lot of people seem to like. That's sitting right close to "who cares"? It's a slight tonal difference.
This movie said, "I kinda watched the 7th movie, but I didn't like it.  So I'm ignoring a lot of it and telling the story I like."

That is worlds away from the story twists of a "Everything you thought was wrong!" movie.  There was no expectation subversion - there was a middle finger to expectations.

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Reply #1168 on: September 11, 2018, 10:59:29 PM

A sequel that says, "Everything you've thought is wrong" is something a lot of people seem to like. That's sitting right close to "who cares"? It's a slight tonal difference.

There's a fuckload of difference between "everything you've thought is wrong" and "everything you thought doesn't matter, nerds." Guess which one TLJ did.

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Reply #1169 on: September 11, 2018, 11:01:56 PM

A sequel that says, "Everything you've thought is wrong" is something a lot of people seem to like. That's sitting right close to "who cares"? It's a slight tonal difference.

I flip on this a bit because I *remember* what we talked about in 1980 when we were waiting for ESB. It wasn't about the background on the elephant-note spy, or about the backstory on Jabba, or Greedo's life history. We didn't want to know why droids weren't allowed in some bars--it was sufficient that they weren't. We didn't need to hear what the Kessel Run was. We didn't need to see what a T-16 was, as if that mattered. We wondered a bit about Biggs---but you know, the movie was better for most of his scenes being cut. We didn't need to hear in the next movie what a Grand Moff was. That there was an Emperor--Vader's boss!--was spine-chilling but we didn't need to know if that was going to get spelled out. We didn't need to know exactly what the Force was or what powers you got if you levelled up. We didn't need to have it spelled out exactly what Obi-Wan meant by "being more powerful than you can possibly imagine". But we could have pissed all over ESB if we wanted to for all of this--who exactly was Jabba? Wait, the Emperor is just some guy with an eyeball problem? What does that mean, son of Skywalker? Wait, are there no consequences for losing the Death Star? Wait, is it ok to just choke everyone, really? Is Luke sad about Biggs? How did Han and Luke become generals, just by winning the Death Star thing? Is Obi-Wan more powerful than Yoda? What is going on?

We just dealt with it. And liked the movie.


Once again (because I've said this exact same thing before in this thread). When the original trilogy came out, none of those things mattered. Lucas was painting a backdrop for his story and it was ok to just present things as 'this is how they are'. We didn't need a Palpatine origin story, or to know the history of the Millenium Falcon, or civil rights for droids on Tatooine. Here's an evil empire and they have an emperor, here's a rebellion with cooler ships than the bad guys. Here are stormtroopers, the armoured fist of the Empire. All of that is ok to just present without comment when you are building something new. TFA and TLJ aren't building something new, they are adding to and repainting parts of the original backdrop (to return to my original metaphor). When the new parts and the old parts don't match up or if new parts paint over old parts, then a good story teller tells you why - either through contextual clues or straight exposition.

None of that happened. JJA set up a bunch of stuff to be resolved (for good or bad), he made changes to the canvas with a nod and a wink to the audience that there would be a reveal later, and then Johnson decided that he wasn't interested in providing those reveals (or even kicking them on to the next instalment). That's why the contextual stuff matters. Not because anyone wants a pre-sequel trilogy about Snoke's backstory or a 20 minute flashback scene about the Knights of Ren, but because Johnson decided that the audience had the same disdain for the backstory as he did.

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Reply #1170 on: September 11, 2018, 11:19:50 PM

When the original trilogy came out, none of those things mattered. Lucas was painting a backdrop for his story and it was ok to just present things as 'this is how they are'.
when the original trilogy came out lucas was flying by the seat of his pants because he's a terrible storyteller

anyone saying otherwise is just lying to themselves so their nostalgia isn't laced with hot garbage
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Reply #1171 on: September 12, 2018, 03:18:32 AM

Johnson decided that the audience had the same disdain for the backstory as he did.

The more I've read and seen about this asshole the more I'm just convinced that he was a really, really, really bad choice for this kind of movie.  Or, indeed, pretty much any popular movie.  When a guy is this much in love with himself, not very much good can happen.

Brick was enjoyable at the time, but by God was it a derivative knock-off and Looper should have showed us the disdain that he had for any form of sense.  He was almost Moffat in that one.

A really, really odd choice that made a very subpar and boring film.


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Reply #1172 on: September 12, 2018, 04:56:57 AM

When the original trilogy came out, none of those things mattered. Lucas was painting a backdrop for his story and it was ok to just present things as 'this is how they are'.
when the original trilogy came out lucas was flying by the seat of his pants because he's a terrible storyteller

anyone saying otherwise is just lying to themselves so their nostalgia isn't laced with hot garbage

These two things are not incompatible. You don't need to explain why things are the way they are when setting a scene, and Lucas is bad at consistency.

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Reply #1173 on: September 12, 2018, 09:14:06 AM

When the original trilogy came out, none of those things mattered. Lucas was painting a backdrop for his story and it was ok to just present things as 'this is how they are'.
when the original trilogy came out lucas was flying by the seat of his pants because he's a terrible storyteller

anyone saying otherwise is just lying to themselves so their nostalgia isn't laced with hot garbage

These two things are not incompatible. You don't need to explain why things are the way they are when setting a scene, and Lucas is bad at consistency.
my point was he's such a bad storyteller that you don't WANT him explaining anything, but he's also a bad storyteller because he's bad at telling stories
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Reply #1174 on: September 12, 2018, 09:27:07 AM

Sure, Lucas is bad at all those things. That doesn't change the point IainC was making - if you are building on the bones of an existing story, in an existing universe, continuity matters. Even if you don't think about it (and yes, we are the part of the audience that probably thinks about it too hard), your brain knows that something is off. Subverting expectations only works if what you give the audience instead is actually better than just portraying what they expect.

Lucas proved how bad he was at universe and story construction in the prequels, as he took the equivalent of a sure thing and shat his diapers instead.

There are a ton of ways TLJ could have improved on the bones TFA set up, but Johnson wasn't interested.

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Reply #1175 on: September 12, 2018, 09:38:15 AM

We're making different points.

I'm saying caring about the story and canon of star wars at all is a mistake because it was created by a bad storyteller.

Whether or not it could be improved is irrelevant. The bones have cancer.
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Reply #1176 on: September 12, 2018, 09:40:52 AM

Yes but just because a loved one has cancer, doesn't mean we leave them on the Acropolis to die.  why so serious?

It's ok to like bad things and want them to be better.

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Reply #1177 on: September 12, 2018, 09:47:39 AM

Yes but just because a loved one has cancer, doesn't mean we leave them on the Acropolis to die.  why so serious?

It's ok to like bad things and want them to be better.
I have never said it's not ok to like bad things.

But getting angry when chemotherapy doesn't work is a stupid hill to die on.
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Reply #1178 on: September 12, 2018, 10:20:54 AM

Meh, I'm bored at work and the best I've come up with for entertainment this morning is watching an recorded Twitch stream of two neckbeards playing Warhammer 40k on Tabletop Simulator, so...

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Reply #1179 on: September 12, 2018, 10:25:26 AM

Oh god.  People are trying to play 40K on tabletop simulator?

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Reply #1180 on: September 12, 2018, 01:31:40 PM

There are entire tournaments for it.

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Reply #1181 on: September 12, 2018, 04:18:35 PM

The only reason people are watching star wars is because they care about the god damn lore. Fucks sake Ewoks, Jar Jar binks, shitty EU novels, the list goes on. Star Wars fans hate a lot but they will shovel shit into their mouths if the actual bowl of half baked ideas follows something. If it stops building or following what came before it why fucking bother watching. What makes star wars better than the average anime if no one cares about some semblance of building narrative.

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Reply #1182 on: September 12, 2018, 05:20:40 PM

I think that in the age of super hero movies and whatnot where we aren't starved for fantasy or scifi like we often have been. Star Wars having the absolute lamest crop of villians out of anything.... is just pathetic

Phasma. Snoke. Kylo. His knights that may or may not exist. Red shirt pretorian guard guys (who had cool weapons), that fucking clown who let's whatshisface prank call his star destroyer... just fuck the damn villians in these 2 movies. So bad. Made for 6 yr olds. I don't get how anyone is even worried about plot, there is nothing menacing about the first order. I'm bored watching them try to accomplish anything because its unthinkable that they might pull it off. This erases all tension or interest in the struggles of the heroes and really makes them seem like bumbling fucks that they are having a hard time.

Do the knights matter to people because the shots where they had flamethrowers (was that the knights?) was the only time I can remember the bad guys doing anything that seemed like they might be up to something villainous and not retarded? They blew up a planet with another stupid planet-ball totally not the death star thing and honestly fuck these bad guys and fuck these movies.

They spent the entire second movie chasing a ship until it ran out of gas only to be allah ackbar'd because they didn't set a fighter screen? or they forgot that was possible? i forget what 60 pages ago the "hush that was a brilliant tactical ploy" bunch was using to explain why that ever fucking worked.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 05:23:40 PM by Hoax »

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Reply #1183 on: September 12, 2018, 05:55:11 PM

For the record, Lucas had fuck all to do with ESB, and his wife and everyone else rewrote his scripts till they made snese. Han Solo should have been a Frog, guys!! Lucas's problem with the Prequels si that there was no-one around to tell him to fuck off or change his demented shit around. And then people started shoveling his shit into their mouths and arguing with everyone who dares say that what they were eating is actually shit. "No its setting up the next movie which will be great... Its setting up the Last movie wich will validate my faith in Lucas. IT WILL SUCCEED!!! ... oh... well it started NOOOOOO as a meme!"

And JJ Abrams just loves setting up Boxes of Mustery in his Christmas tree. If he had the rigns in this one all he would have done is put up MORE boxes of mystery and let the other ones fangle and shake around till the tree falls over. He does not care about actually OPENING the boxes of mystery, and if he is force to its something throwaway with MORE boxes of mystery hanging off it. LOST was creating more majical miystery boxes till the last fucking episode.

The Big Problem here is that the Cult of Lucas is no longer a factor and his name is not majically attached, so people feel free to critisise these films like they felt they could not whhen the Prequels happened. If Lucas had not been involved with the Prequels The Phantom Menace would now be mentioned on the same level as Heavens Gate and the thing would have ended right there. And people would have been crying for Lucas to be involved.

Lucas is and was a dogshit movie maker, guys. Accept it. Star Wars was good in spite of him. TFA was a decent flick with Abrams BS installed and this one was a Mediocre move that people are demanding pass tests the OT never had to pass. But then Star Wars the movie didnt have Majical Mystery Boxes either, just historical events mentioned in passing.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
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Reply #1184 on: September 12, 2018, 08:01:37 PM

Phasma. Snoke. Kylo. His knights that may or may not exist. Red shirt pretorian guard guys (who had cool weapons), that fucking clown who let's whatshisface prank call his star destroyer... just fuck the damn villians in these 2 movies. So bad. Made for 6 yr olds.

I feel like Kylo is pretty nuanced as far as villains go, although I can understand if him not being entirely confident in his evilness is a turnoff for some.
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Reply #1185 on: September 12, 2018, 09:19:48 PM

Phasma. Snoke. Kylo. His knights that may or may not exist. Red shirt pretorian guard guys (who had cool weapons), that fucking clown who let's whatshisface prank call his star destroyer... just fuck the damn villians in these 2 movies. So bad. Made for 6 yr olds.

I feel like Kylo is pretty nuanced as far as villains go, although I can understand if him not being entirely confident in his evilness is a turnoff for some.

I think he needed a better arc.  The first movie he was fine but by the end of the second he needed to become menacing in a way a villain should and he's just not.

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Reply #1186 on: September 12, 2018, 10:00:38 PM

Kylo is a fucking ugly one dimensional teenager

he sucks
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Reply #1187 on: September 13, 2018, 12:49:41 AM

He has not given into the power of the Angst. Needs to watch episodes of Buffy and Angel, and tons of Anime.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
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Reply #1188 on: September 14, 2018, 05:51:11 AM

Did Someone Say Headcanon ?

Long story short ;  Star Wars fans have waaaay too much fucking time on their hands.

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Reply #1189 on: September 14, 2018, 06:27:06 AM

Well, yeah, though honestly once the prequels came out, Obi-Wan in the original Star Wars movie turns into an epic liar, it's not just the thing about Vader. And it really is kind of a puzzle what he was doing there all that time--waiting for Luke to grow up and? what was he going to do and when was he going to do it? Considering that if we accept the dialogue, Luke almost got to go to the academy except that Uncle Owen needed him for the harvest--what was Obi-Wan going to do if Luke went off to be a pilot or whatever?

Lucas' insistence on having C3PO and R2 in all the movies was just really one of the many dumb things about his storytelling.
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