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Abagadro
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Reply #35 on: June 04, 2017, 02:17:02 AM

It will open in the hundred million range and likely have staying power with good word of mouth.

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HaemishM
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Reply #36 on: June 04, 2017, 12:18:24 PM

I don't think many people were unaware of this movie. It's opened at $100 million already, a record for a female-directed film.

I actually think the chemistry between Pine and Gadot as well as the very intensely felt emotions that come from a high-pressure setting like war earned the use of the L word. As for whether they spent weeks getting to know each other, we don't actually know that their sailboat journey to London was overnight. It felt like it, but it didn't necessarily have to be one night. There weren't any clues to say how long it took so I'm ok with thinking they had time over the journey that we didn't see.

As for not stepping on Capt. America's toes, that's because of the different setting. WWI is just such a hugely different time period and type of war and the choice to set it then as opposed to WWII really was brilliant. You can have a war setting without it feeling like "Oh they just remade Capt. America" as well as skip the "RAH RAH AMERICA BEAT NAZIS!" feel that is almost necessary in such a time period.

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Reply #37 on: June 04, 2017, 04:30:51 PM

Makes you realize--suppose they'd opened up the DCEU with:

a) Man of Steel--not great, but you could work with it--maybe this is how Superman gets to be a boy scout, because he fell into a fight without knowing how to protect civilians etc and vows to always protect people from that point on
b) Wonder Woman
c) A world-weary, cynical Batman film--different than Nolan, a Batman who is losing his struggle through entropy and age
d) Aquaman
e) and then Justice League, with the Flash and Green Lantern joining on without having their own films first.

Basically the MCU way.

They didn't do that because Snyder wanted to make a version of Dark Knight without all the backdrop required.
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Reply #38 on: June 04, 2017, 07:42:15 PM

Wait, DC's managed to fuck up Batman, Superman and the Suicide Squad movies but produced a good Wonder Woman movie?

What the actual fuck?
They don't care about Wonder Woman I suspect, leaving the writers and directors to do what they wanted.

I could be totally wrong, but that's my Occam's Razor of the situation.
Zack Snyder was a writer and producer and Wesley Coller who was a producer on MoS and BvS was an executive producer so it's not like they were ignoring the movie. It is possible the let the director her thing without much interference.
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Reply #39 on: June 04, 2017, 10:04:54 PM

Not all Writers and Executive Producers contribute equally. For example, Joss Whedon hasn't done anything on MAOS in a few seasons but has a contractual EP title on every episode.

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Merusk
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Reply #40 on: June 05, 2017, 08:07:27 AM

Yeah, I don't understand that comment either.

This is really good.  Go see it.

I meant to see what other women said, not waiting to go see it. The only reviews I had to that point were from guys all saying how good it was. I wanted a female view of this feminine-rights-appropriated symbol's movie. So far the ranking is 3/1 favorable with one of those 3 being on the fence but still enjoying it.

I think it was a little slow and could have used some cuts of scenes that were just a smidge too-long. Over all I enjoyed it, though.  The most WTF moment has been a History professor friend who complained about the use of the Fokker in the same timeframe as the tanks. Because THAT was the most unbelievable part of the movie...

My only real complaints are:
Not all Writers and Executive Producers contribute equally. For example, Joss Whedon hasn't done anything on MAOS in a few seasons but has a contractual EP title on every episode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P_AnvUIvJs
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 08:10:23 AM by Merusk »

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Reply #41 on: June 05, 2017, 12:19:06 PM

What I find interesting on Facebook, on message boards, and in articles is the difficulty people have reconciling the idea of a woman not being sexualized and a woman being sexy due to her charisma, presence and physical beauty. People that would have no trouble discussing 'James Bond in a tuxedo' as sexy are struggling / hesitant to use similar words for Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman. She is a very positive type of sexy female role model - a role model based upon substance rather than skin - but sexy definitely belongs amongst the list of positive characteristics of this Wonder Woman.

Question: I did not see the extended edition of Justice League - was Gal Gadot's role significantly expanded in it?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 12:24:31 PM by jgsugden »

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Reply #42 on: June 05, 2017, 12:49:45 PM

What I find interesting on Facebook, on message boards, and in articles is the difficulty people have reconciling the idea of a woman not being sexualized and a woman being sexy due to her charisma, presence and physical beauty.

She's also wearing the medieval version of a mini skirt, tube top and high heeled boots.  Not sure how anyone can look at her and think she's not being sexualized.  She's a comic book character, the sexualization comes included in the character.

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croaker69
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Reply #43 on: June 05, 2017, 12:55:43 PM

Aside from the bare shoulders and heels isn't that pretty much what Greek hoplites wore? They had interesting ideas about pants in general those ancient Greeks.

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Reply #44 on: June 05, 2017, 03:06:04 PM

Aside from her being a comic character, which means she is sexualized by default, I think they did a real goddamn good job of NOT sexualizing the character anymore than was necessary. Even the shots in her costume didn't strike me as such - there was much more sexualization in shots of the Bat butt in Val Kilmer's Batman Forever movie than in this.

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Reply #45 on: June 05, 2017, 03:11:14 PM

Agreed. It was just the ancient Greek costume that they all happened to wear. Nothing overtly sexual about it. If anything she's well-written as a character who DOESN'T understand she has a sexual charisma she could leverage. Which is quite awesome, even if a bit of a stretch. Lack of men != lack of sexual drive.

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Reply #46 on: June 05, 2017, 03:12:43 PM

They made clear that the lack of men wasn't a problem, with the whole thing about the 12 treatises on pleasurable love, which determined that men weren't required for anything besides procreation.  DRILLING AND WOMANLINESS

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Reply #47 on: June 05, 2017, 04:05:54 PM

Yes, I got that. Which is what made her lack of awareness of her own sexual charisma even more baffling when thinking about it. Assume it's only self-pleasure that's the line is referring to. You're saying, yep everyone only masturbates so they're not attracted to other women and wouldn't have any awareness of their own sexual charisma and lack lust.

However we all know it's a wink and a nod to lesbianism and bisexuality. Which makes her lack of awareness just a scriptwriter throwing in a, "heh, lesbians," joke without considering the implications of the line. That makes it pretty patriarchal and separate from the interpretation of those who have latched onto it as a "go girl" moment. Wonder Woman isn't aware of her own sexuality until Rodgers brings it out of her, since she's obviously aware of it in BvS and uses it there.

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I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
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jgsugden
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Reply #48 on: June 05, 2017, 04:17:23 PM

Aside from her being a comic character, which means she is sexualized by default, I think they did a real goddamn good job of NOT sexualizing the character anymore than was necessary. Even the shots in her costume didn't strike me as such - there was much more sexualization in shots of the Bat butt in Val Kilmer's Batman Forever movie than in this.
When Haemish and I agree...

I do not think she was unaware of man/woman relationships, or that she was considered beautiful and attractive.  They went out of their way to establish she had an academic knowledge of men as well as classical mainstream knowledge (she knew of Socrates, for example).  While she clearly did not fully grasp all ramifications of 'modern' society or her place in it, she was not some doe eyed simpleton that didn't understand it was wrong to show her boobies. 

While Gadot won me over, I'd have liked to have seen them find an equally talented actress that was physically more like most of the classic statues of Athena - which looked a bit less like a model.  A few degrees less of an hourglass figure - someone that looked a little less likely to break when hit.  However, as I've said, Gadot won me over and I didn't find myself dwelling on her outfit - which was covered up in pretty much every non-action scene in the movie.  Compare her outfit to Superabs and Batsculpture.  Her outfit is the least ridiculous with how it addresses anatomy. 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 04:36:42 PM by jgsugden »

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HaemishM
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Reply #49 on: June 05, 2017, 04:36:25 PM

She wasn't aware of her own sexual charm because she'd never met a man ever and had no idea what would turn a man on. I think that line was fully aware of what it was implying - lesbianism, bisexuality, I think both were pretty clearly implied even if not outright stated. Think about it - she's from an island of all women, most of whom are going to be pretty above average physical specimens. While yeah, she was probably the hottest among them, I can see how she could very clearly not get that men might be falling all over her because of how hot she was, or even how to gauge that that's one of the ways she had power over them.

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Reply #50 on: June 05, 2017, 05:25:56 PM

Actually the wink and nod to lesbianism was when the general died an unnamed amazon ran to her side and began wailing as one would do with a lover who had just been killed in front of you.  The 12 treaties on physical pleasure was way more than a wink and anyone thinking it meant masturbation is way off.

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Reply #51 on: June 05, 2017, 05:27:48 PM

While yeah, she was probably the hottest among them

Nope. Doutzen Kroes was hanging out in the background.

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Reply #52 on: June 05, 2017, 07:07:58 PM

She wasn't aware of her own sexual charm because she'd never met a man ever and had no idea what would turn a man on. I think that line was fully aware of what it was implying - lesbianism, bisexuality, I think both were pretty clearly implied even if not outright stated. Think about it - she's from an island of all women, most of whom are going to be pretty above average physical specimens. While yeah, she was probably the hottest among them, I can see how she could very clearly not get that men might be falling all over her because of how hot she was, or even how to gauge that that's one of the ways she had power over them.

All that says is that it takes a 'real man' to make a woman realize she's attractive. Because Lesbians totally don't get flirty and over-excited at someone they're attracted to, right? It's all just bred into the culture by men and lesbians mimic that stoic coolness of 'real men' the same way gay men are all effeminate because that attracts men.

Except, no.

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I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
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Reply #53 on: June 05, 2017, 10:26:23 PM

We also see that for a time Diana was the only child on the island and we know that she was created differently than the other Amazons. It's quite possible that none of the other Amazons ever thought of her in any sexualized way.
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Reply #54 on: June 06, 2017, 01:11:37 AM

Good christ you people overthink a superhero movie.

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Reply #55 on: June 06, 2017, 02:01:49 AM

^

Thank you.

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Reply #56 on: June 06, 2017, 12:36:56 PM

When a movie's good you take the time to over-analyze it. It's only the ones that suck that you stop thinking about.

How much time was spent thinking about Guardians of the Galaxy vs. Michael Bay's Transformers. Citizen Kaine vs. Gili. Now we have Wonder Woman vs. other DC Movies. Good things deserve thought.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 12:39:56 PM by Merusk »

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Reply #57 on: June 06, 2017, 01:00:03 PM

Did I miss when we sat around breaking down the commentary on modern concepts of friendship, homosexuality and gender fluidity offered by the relationship between Rocket and Groot?

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Reply #58 on: June 06, 2017, 01:10:49 PM

I hadn't thought of that, but if you want to start up that conversation let's do it. Beats, "That was awesome, more explosions!" twenty times.  why so serious?

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I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
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I love the swinging dongs - Signe
jgsugden
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Reply #59 on: June 06, 2017, 09:36:56 PM

Did I miss when we sat around breaking down the commentary on modern concepts of friendship, homosexuality and gender fluidity offered by the relationship between Rocket and Groot?
He he... Groot had wood.

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Reply #60 on: June 08, 2017, 07:35:21 PM

Saw it with my daughter, we both liked it a lot. Setting it against the pointless meatgrinder of pre-armistice WW1 was a good choice,  Gal Gadot did a far better job of carrying off both the vulnerable sheltered girl and the implacable god-spawn aspects of the character than I would have thought possible.

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Reply #61 on: June 10, 2017, 09:31:10 AM

This was decent, def great by DC's low standards. The ending sequence and final villain was total junk. Despite being by far their best effort it didn't make me expect any more out of JL and I'm probably still not going to bother with it in theaters. Will be excited to see Gadot in a future not-WW role now, so good on her. They made WW fight scenes something to look forward to but I still feel as if the weight of the character (been a hero 100 years, immortal, etc) will drag it down. You have to be really clever in your storytelling and characterizations to make that work and this was much more a "wow they didn't fuck anything up badly" success than "oh my so clever" success.

I think you can skip it in theaters but the middle of the movie was for sure worth seeing in theaters. The 3d was the new average, which is great compared to where we were a year or 3 ago but I felt like I wouldn't have missed anything amazing without it.

At the end of the day I think I have to accept that I'm a Marvel kid and I just don't really give a fuck about DC characters outside of the Teen Titans thanks to that great cartoon run and Batman bc he's fucking Batman. Despite how good the JL cartoon was back in the day it still was filled with too many idgaf characters including Wonder Woman. She's just not very interesting and this movie while quite good didn't make her interesting to me when I imagine her in our/their timeline's present. We will see.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 09:34:37 AM by Hoax »

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Khaldun
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Reply #62 on: June 10, 2017, 09:43:17 PM

It tells you a lot that the director had to fight like crazy to keep the WW goes up over the trenches and frees a Belgian town sequence. The producers, the studio people, all wanted it cut. (Makes me wonder what Snyder thought.) And yet it's the single thing that impresses virtually everyone--that will be cited visually as an iconic scene that represents the entire genre from this point forward. That says to me that there is a fish rotting at the head more than anything else we've heard or seen about WB and DCEU--that hearing the pitch for a scene that absolutely makes a movie, they all clench their sphincters and say "No, that will never work".
Hoax
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Reply #63 on: June 10, 2017, 11:32:52 PM

It tells you a lot that the director had to fight like crazy to keep the WW goes up over the trenches and frees a Belgian town sequence. The producers, the studio people, all wanted it cut. (Makes me wonder what Snyder thought.) And yet it's the single thing that impresses virtually everyone--that will be cited visually as an iconic scene that represents the entire genre from this point forward. That says to me that there is a fish rotting at the head more than anything else we've heard or seen about WB and DCEU--that hearing the pitch for a scene that absolutely makes a movie, they all clench their sphincters and say "No, that will never work".

link? that was the only great action piece of the whole movie. that and some of the lasso work later on was pretty cool. the fight on the beach was pretty dumb and badly done/shot and the final fight was boring as fuck in comparison. that part basically hard carried the film.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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HaemishM
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Reply #64 on: June 10, 2017, 11:33:46 PM

I've heard the same rumor but I don't have a link to confirm it.

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Reply #65 on: June 11, 2017, 06:15:41 AM

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Reply #66 on: June 11, 2017, 09:28:33 PM

This movie proves that the last few DC movies failed at basic competent movie making. This was a good movie, and I agree Hoax. Between DC low standards and the fact that the last 5 minutes of the movie could be edited out you have 7-8/10 movie that's highly enjoyable but ultimately really hollow. In fact I wager you can edit out the first 5 minutes of this movie as well as Ares killing all the greek gods is remarkably stupid. Oh and the CGI was janking as fuck. I mean my fiancee was laughing at some action scenes due to how cartoonish some of the effects were.

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Reply #67 on: June 11, 2017, 09:54:16 PM

The thematic miss in the ending is pretty glaring, and will likely lead to some memorable parodies.  ("I choose love!"  Thunder crash kill!). That's really the only part of the movie they should feel embarrassed about.

Digital effects can only go so far, and they always look bad in retrospect or if you aren't engaged with the film.   The director chose to focus on the striking visual design of the action pieces instead of verisimilitude.  I feel like that was the right decision. 
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Reply #68 on: June 14, 2017, 03:10:29 PM

The thematic miss in the ending is pretty glaring, and will likely lead to some memorable parodies.  ("I choose love!"  Thunder crash kill!). 

This was my biggest problem with the movie. I loved it overall, but this logic just doesn't work for me:

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Reply #69 on: June 14, 2017, 05:57:16 PM

I saw it last night. It was a good superhero movie. It would probably sit well in the Marvel ranks. I'm starting to tire of superhero movies now though.

For a movie that prided itself on switching languages, the use of languages and accents was a bit weird. I was initially thrown by the super-strong Israeli accent from the lead actor, which the other Amazons copied to make it the Amazonian accent. In the town Wonder Woman freed, the locals all spoke German to her. Then they celebrated their freedom with French songs. That's all possible in Belgium, but seemed a rare combination to encounter. I would have thought they'd speak Flemish or French.

I'm also not sure you could just dial London from a public phone in WWI Belgium, get through without an operator, and chat in a kind of hands-free way and then say "you're breaking up" and pretend to lose the call. Dramatic licence I guess.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 05:59:40 PM by Tale »

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