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Author Topic: NFL Playoffs 2016  (Read 7937 times)
HaemishM
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Reply #175 on: February 08, 2016, 10:04:02 AM

My guess is that when he went to the ground, it looked like the nose of the football touched the ground and the ball moved slightly in his hands. It was one of those plays that no matter what they called on the field it was going to be a "call stands" review, because you couldn't really tell what happened.

Except that you could. QUITE CLEARLY. The man never ever lost possession of the ball even when it touched the ground and he came up with the ball in his possession. He made one helluva a catch that got overturned by idiotic rules and officials who are either idiots or chose to follow really shitty idiotic rules despite the clear evidence. But then the Dez Bryant catch from last year's loss to the Packers was also a goddamn catch and fuck the NFL for it even being a question.

EDIT: Also, I'm totally down with the NFL implementing the yellow card/red card rules from Rugby for shit like Talib's attempt to twist off that dude's head like it was a fucking beer bottle. Because that shit was completely ridiculous and he's lucky the dude didn't snap his fucking neck. Also, the offsetting penalties thing is really bullshit.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 10:06:13 AM by HaemishM »

Sir T
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Reply #176 on: February 08, 2016, 10:08:30 AM

But they wont do that because a character in Buffy made a joke about AF being rugby in Armour

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Reply #177 on: February 08, 2016, 10:22:50 AM

It wasn't overturned. The ruling on the field was incomplete and was upheld.

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Reply #178 on: February 08, 2016, 10:36:53 AM

I like defense. That was a great defensive game. It's a terrible game when the plays are there and the offense just can't make them because they suck. The defenses didn't allow the plays to be there, and that's the hallmark of a great defense.

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HaemishM
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Reply #179 on: February 08, 2016, 10:42:46 AM

It wasn't overturned. The ruling on the field was incomplete and was upheld.

Same result. A catch that should have been a catch was ruled as incomplete. The call on the field was understandable - not overturning the call is what was completely idiotic.

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Reply #180 on: February 08, 2016, 10:45:28 AM

It wasn't overturned. The ruling on the field was incomplete and was upheld.

Same result. A catch that should have been a catch was ruled as incomplete. The call on the field was understandable - not overturning the call is what was completely idiotic.

Same result, big difference. Words/process matter. Have to have irrefutable evidence to overturn, and there was enough evidence in there to say it's possible that the ball wasn't secured as it moved when he hit the ground. To me, this is not a good example of the "What Is a Catch" storyline from the last few years. Plenty of much much MUCH better examples than lumping this one in as well.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #181 on: February 08, 2016, 10:46:21 AM

I'm convinced that the replay process should include consulting an 11 year-old boy, one who has played backyard football and could easily spot what was a catch and what was not.

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Reply #182 on: February 08, 2016, 10:49:02 AM

But there wasn't inconclusive evidence EITHER WAY, that it was a catch. Otherwise they would've said "ruling on the field is -confirmed-". It wasn't it was upheld, because it wasn't really conclusive either way. Likely if it was called a catch on the field, it would've similarly not been overturned or confirmed by replay either.

I was honestly more upset that Jericho Cotchery wasn't doing more catching like that (and the ones with Panthers) when he was with the Jets.

Cam Newton seriously looked like his arm was hurt and was out of his element all game. Part of it definitely was defense, and Von Miller getting MVP was well deserved.


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Trippy
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Reply #183 on: February 08, 2016, 11:14:32 AM

I didn't watch any of the game but Cam Newton has horrific throwing mechanics. Assuming he wasn't injured Denver presumably figured out a way to make that even worse by disrupting his timing and/or not allowing him to use his inredible arm strength to make his normal throws.

Edit: disrupting
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 12:44:21 PM by Trippy »
Segoris
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Reply #184 on: February 08, 2016, 11:32:16 AM

But there wasn't inconclusive evidence EITHER WAY, that it was a catch. Otherwise they would've said "ruling on the field is -confirmed-". It wasn't it was upheld, because it wasn't really conclusive either way. Likely if it was called a catch on the field, it would've similarly not been overturned or confirmed by replay either.
To me, this is not a good example of the "What Is a Catch" storyline from the last few years. Plenty of much much MUCH better examples than lumping this one in as well.

Absolutely agree with both of these. To me, it looked like the nose of the ball touched the ground, combined with the fact that the ball came loose a couple of times means the call of "play stands" instead of "play confirmed" was the right call. However, if the play was called a catch and then challenged, "play stands" would have been the right call there as well. It was that close where an overturning wasn't possible.

Meanwhile, there's fuckall being said about the non-called intentional grounding calls on Cam (there's mention of two to three, but I only clearly remember one that was undeniably IG). Or even the late hit called on Den when Cam was still on his feet.
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Reply #185 on: February 08, 2016, 11:40:48 AM

I tried to not get caught up in missed calls, because they usually cut both ways. That Late Hit thing was the only thing that made me think "WTF WAS THAT".

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Reply #186 on: February 08, 2016, 11:43:15 AM

The officials only threw flags on obvious false starts and a few (of the many) obvious unsportsmanlike/unnecessary roughness penalties. Saying "oh they missed this or that" is ignoring the issue that the officiating sucked. But that is pretty much the NFL these days: shitty product that is all about pushing more and more advertising and jingoistic chest thumping at the audience to distract people from the fact that the product is shit.

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Reply #187 on: February 08, 2016, 11:56:04 AM

Lots of babies named Von in 9 months.

According to the NFL.

Gotta name them Vonnie B'Vsean though. How the fuck do you spell that middle name? Bofshon?

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Reply #188 on: February 08, 2016, 11:57:39 AM

He caught it but when the ball goes from one side of your body to another the refs are going to say you didn't have control of the ball. But Cam threw like shit that game. Like shit. I could count with my hands his completed passes and he did the exact same shit against arizona. Once they figure out he'll just over throw his receivers 80% of the time anyway they did man to man and dared him to run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XamRGIDWOZk

Never had control till the end. Touchdown. Off his ass.

Cam was rattled all game... that challenged "no-catch" deflated things early.

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Malakili
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Reply #189 on: February 08, 2016, 12:19:08 PM

The difference there is that the ball didn't touch the ground at all.  The ball can touch the ground only if it doesn't influence your control of the ball. If it hits the ground and it causes you to bobble the ball it doesn't matter if you regain control.
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Reply #190 on: February 08, 2016, 12:21:28 PM

The ball on the catch in question last night never touched the ground, his arm was under it the whole time.

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Reply #191 on: February 08, 2016, 12:31:17 PM

I didn't watch any of the game but Cam Newton has horrific throwing mechanics. Assuming he wasn't injured Denver presumably figured out a way to make that even worse by disputing his timing and/or not allowing him to use his inredible arm strength to make his normal throws.


2015 was Cam's 2 standard deviation event. He has never been a good passing QB. Last year was a fluke and the luck of an easy schedule. The real Can Newton all fantasy football players know came to work on Sunday. 

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Reply #192 on: February 08, 2016, 12:32:29 PM

The ball on the catch in question last night never touched the ground, his arm was under it the whole time.

That's the point of dispute, surely. It looked to me like the tip of the ball touched the ground as he was rolling over the top of it, causing it to come a bit loose. That is what they called on the field, and because the replay doesn't show it clearly, the call stood.
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Reply #193 on: February 08, 2016, 02:53:25 PM

Hooo boy, were Carolina not prepared for this game. This is why you don't believe your own hype people, and do your research.  Ohhhhh, I see.

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Reply #194 on: February 08, 2016, 03:56:17 PM

I think more than any indictment of Cam's ability, last night (and the playoffs) showed just what a HUGE fucking gulf in class there is in the NFL between some teams. I mean, Denver didn't win 15 games (mainly because Kubiak's offense sucks so much ass no matter who the QB is) and Carolina did. Not only that, Carolina won 15 games by a margin of a metric fuckton. One of the differences is that Carolina was playing on a schedule that was based on a 7-8-1 record from the previous year while Denver had a 12-4 record to base their games off of. Denver's SOS was .500 while Carolina's was .441. Carolina's strength of victory (based on the winning percentages of the teams they beat) was .438 to Denver's .479. That's how shitty the NFC was this year. Denver scored almost 200 fewer points this year and gave up only 12 less than Carolina.

I think I'm really beginning to hate the parity-based scheduling.

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Reply #195 on: February 08, 2016, 04:11:12 PM

0:15 of the butt catch is questionable as you do not see the ball buried in Barnidge's leg. Could be on the ground, might not be... call was a touchdown so it would have to be overturned, but point remains. Ball is all over the place and it might have touched.

Either way.. Peyton rides off into the sunset and Miller is getting paid.

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Reply #196 on: February 08, 2016, 05:46:44 PM

I think more than any indictment of Cam's ability, last night (and the playoffs) showed just what a HUGE fucking gulf in class there is in the NFL between some teams. I mean, Denver didn't win 15 games (mainly because Kubiak's offense sucks so much ass no matter who the QB is) and Carolina did. Not only that, Carolina won 15 games by a margin of a metric fuckton. One of the differences is that Carolina was playing on a schedule that was based on a 7-8-1 record from the previous year while Denver had a 12-4 record to base their games off of. Denver's SOS was .500 while Carolina's was .441. Carolina's strength of victory (based on the winning percentages of the teams they beat) was .438 to Denver's .479. That's how shitty the NFC was this year. Denver scored almost 200 fewer points this year and gave up only 12 less than Carolina.

I think I'm really beginning to hate the parity-based scheduling.

You're right - in fact, I'd say that even before the stats, just looking at personnel can be a good indication. I had a feeling about Carolina, because while they had a few good players on defense, their O was essentially all 'who?' + a QB with a big arm and not much sense. They won a whole bunch, but against a soft schedule. Whereas Denver scraped past NE on a rare tactical mistake by Darth Hoodie & Co, and had an overall tougher time before that, including not having their best QB for a stretch. However, their defensive player selection is monstrous, and their offensive lineup is also very very good, even with their choice of broken / newbie QBs. In that, the superb owl reflected the matchup; Carolina defense held up for a while, but were eventually tired out and slowly picked apart, while their offense ran repeatedly into a brick wall.

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Reply #197 on: February 08, 2016, 10:45:17 PM

Eh. The Panthers beat both the Hawks and Cardinals, the No 1 and 2 teams in the league by DVOA. While the Bronco's barely squeaked by the Patriots(and the Steelers with Rapelsburger more injured than Manning) and the vast majority of their offensive power coming from a player they benched.

They went in with the number 2 defense and 5 offense against the number 1 offense and number 24 offense[in reality even worse].

They got wrecked by turnovers/Von Miller and co playing out of his/their mind.

I mean really. The Bronco's converted 1 third down and got like 3 first downs all game. The Bronco's had overall worse offensive stats for the game. They just got all of the breaks and the Panthers didn't*. That is just the way games with low probability turnovers go.

Trying to list it like it says anything about the Panthers is foolish. This isn't superbowl 48.

*I saw one bad late hit call against the Bronco's. But i also saw some pretty blatant hits by the Bronco's not called and when things did break the broke against the Panthers.

Ed: that being said that should have been a catch(though i can see why it was ruled incomplete on the field and why it wasn't overturned). His hand was under the ball at the point the ball might have hit the ground, and so even if the ball technically hits the ground i am not really comfortable saying that isn't a catch. It would be like laying out and having the ball hit the ground before you catch it because the grass is longer than the width of your hand.

edit: Strength of Schedule stats after the season don't mean much. Because the Panthers beating on everyone lowers their strength of schedule. Basically the Bronco's had a "high" strength of schedule because they didn't win that hard, and because everyone else in the AFC sucks kinda equally except the Patriots, (and maybe the steelers and Bengals were actually decent this year)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 10:52:53 PM by Goumindong »
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Reply #198 on: February 08, 2016, 11:34:38 PM

Well, the main point about SoS surely must be that it is generally a bit unfair that the first place team must play a first place schedule the following year.  If you play in a competitive division, it is quite a handicap.  That's in fact exactly what it is - a handicap system.  I dislike it immensely.  Watch the Panthers next year revert to form.

Will also be interesting to see what happens to the Broncos next year.  Including the Super Bowl, they won something like 9 or 10 games as a result of huge defensive plays.  I am not arguing that the defense wasn't great, only that the lucky breaks and bounces are unlikely to continue like that and they will need to generate some offense. 

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Reply #199 on: February 09, 2016, 12:36:58 AM

Win the Super Bowl, people still bury the Broncos.  why so serious?

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Reply #200 on: February 09, 2016, 02:23:54 AM

No, not at all - they earned it.  Or at least their defense did.  I just think it will be interesting to see how it plays out.  As a Seattle fan, you could see some of the same effect after their win a couple of years ago.  The defense remained more or less just as solid, but the bounces didn't seem to be going their way anymore. 

Let's put it another way:  there is practically no chance that the Bronco D will be so directly responsible for as many wins next season, in the form of last minute heroics (really, it was pretty extreme was it not?).  It doesn't mean they won't be every bit as good, they'll just be a bit less lucky.  If their offense does not take steps in a positive direction, it stands to reason that they would regress a bit overall.  Or am I wrong about all the close games decided by huge defensive plays?

The same exact argument can be made about Carolina, but on the opposite side of the ball.  I think this season was an anomaly for Cam where everything seemed to just go their way, and he will personally regress a bit.  Also, they are one Greg Olsen broken leg from being a sub 500 team again. 

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Reply #201 on: February 09, 2016, 08:33:42 AM

The NFC was really really bad this year. Just look at competition.

The NFC South had Carolina trouncing 3 teams with 8 wins or less, and all of them probably deserved worse except they played each other.
The NFC East was a horrific joke that had an AWFUL Redskins team emerge as the winner with 9-7. Over 3 teams with a sub-.500 record.
The NFC North featured a busted Green Bay team still managing to win games, and a one-dimensional Vikings team cleaning up on a crap schedule. Seriously, the Vikings had no wins against playoff teams except GB at the end.
The NFC West had Seattle, who we watched completely wreck the early part of the season before getting some semblance of balance, and a good Arizona team.

Basically it was Carolina and Arizona wrecking the rest of the conference. The other teams if you really dug into their issues had ZERO shot of winning a title. Maybe an outside change of Seattle simply because of their composition, but nobody really took the other playoff teams seriously.

Meanwhile the AFC was very competitive. Steelers, Bengals, Chiefs, Broncos, and Patriots all had a shot at winning a title this year. All were viable teams to advance to the Super Bowl minimum. Even a team like the Jets had a good season, and they were better than 85% of the NFC teams.

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Reply #202 on: February 09, 2016, 08:47:20 AM

Both conferences were shit, the NFL is shit.

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Reply #203 on: February 09, 2016, 08:53:33 AM

Both conferences were shit, the NFL is shit.

 why so serious?

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HaemishM
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Reply #204 on: February 09, 2016, 09:00:10 AM

Based on their offense, I would not say the Chiefs were a viable Super Bowl contender. Their offense was fucking terrible and slow and I have no fucking idea why the Eagles picked the Chiefs OC as their new head coach. The Steelers defense would probably have lost them games against good offenses in the playoffs, but the only offense they played in the playoffs that was worth a fuck was the Bengals, who were playing their backup QB with a grand total of 3 starts including the postseason. Also it was the Bengals. The Jets had Fitzmagic as their QB and while he was a HUGE upgrade over Geno Smith, he is a human turnover machine. The next best teams were the Bills, the Texans (no QB and got beat 30-0 by the Chiefs), the Colts (with Methuselah at QB, and no O Line) and the goddamn Raiders.

There were 4 good teams this year. Denver, Carolina, New England and Arizona. That's it. Everyone else either played terribly (Packers), were one-trick ponies (Vikings) or were deeply flawed or injury-prone or just plain fucking terrible. Denver's offense was a really bad joke, Carolina had garbage at wideout and were carried by their MVP QB playing out of his mind against a shitty schedule (and their defense was good but did just enough not to lose in many games where they were dominant), New England was a rolling MASH unit and Arizona - Arizona was I thought a good team that apparently just couldn't hold up under playoff pressure. I mean, they barely beat the Packers who were terrible this year.

I'm just going to go out on a limb and say that the last CBA is a significant reason why the NFL product has been so bad the last few years, as well as their utterly insane set of pedantic rules like the no-catch thing and the over emphasis on pass interference calls. The CBA ensures that we'll have more players with less than 5 years experience on the field per team, the lack of expanded roster size means injuries can utterly fuck a team and the rules against hitting helmet to helmet are causing more low tackles leading to more players getting their leg bits shredded like pulled pork.

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Reply #205 on: February 09, 2016, 09:14:35 AM

No, not at all - they earned it.  Or at least their defense did.  I just think it will be interesting to see how it plays out.  As a Seattle fan, you could see some of the same effect after their win a couple of years ago.  The defense remained more or less just as solid, but the bounces didn't seem to be going their way anymore.  

Let's put it another way:  there is practically no chance that the Bronco D will be so directly responsible for as many wins next season, in the form of last minute heroics (really, it was pretty extreme was it not?).  It doesn't mean they won't be every bit as good, they'll just be a bit less lucky.  If their offense does not take steps in a positive direction, it stands to reason that they would regress a bit overall.  Or am I wrong about all the close games decided by huge defensive plays?

The same exact argument can be made about Carolina, but on the opposite side of the ball.  I think this season was an anomaly for Cam where everything seemed to just go their way, and he will personally regress a bit.  Also, they are one Greg Olsen broken leg from being a sub 500 team again.  

As others have pointed out, the NFC was a shit show. Strength of Schedule DOES matter as it's not just an indicator of how that single team played, but how the teams they played played. NFL Scheduling has been shitty lately.

Also, it WAS NOT just late game heroics. Broncos defense played solidly for all 60 minutes in almost every single game. Saying it was last second heroics is undermanning just how god damn good those guys played and the great gameplans that Wade Phillips put together. They carried early when Manning was lame, kept leads when Oz was in, and played solidly well at the end of the season and played out of their minds in the postseason. Yes, there were several moments of "thank god that happened", but you know what, that's great. The defense was that good. We knew they could dig deep, and make something happen.

Do not forget, this is the defense that beat up on Brady twice and kept Aaron Rodgers to SEVENTY SEVEN yards. Yeah, I'm a homer on this topic, so I'm biased.

And I say all of this knowing VERY WELL we were in the same boat as Carolina was two years ago. All Offense and a defense that shined mostly from beating up on weak divisions, especially the AFC West.

In short, the offense did what they needed to, especially while Manning was out, while the defense kept rolling.

The Broncos defense and offense will likely look very differently next year. There's no way we're going to afford everyone, and I expect some big names to leave. (Danny Trevathan especially) Von Miller's contract is going to make JJ Watt's look like sunday morning matinee pricing.

I mean, seriously, look at this shit. We're fucked payroll wise!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 09:16:25 AM by sickrubik »

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Reply #206 on: February 09, 2016, 09:38:59 AM

That's probably the best defense I've ever seen in my time alive in the playoffs. They took down the best of the best QBs in the AFC, and then the number one scoring offense in the league.

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Reply #207 on: February 09, 2016, 10:41:19 AM

The Broncos defense and offense will likely look very differently next year. There's no way we're going to afford everyone, and I expect some big names to leave. (Danny Trevathan especially) Von Miller's contract is going to make JJ Watt's look like sunday morning matinee pricing.

I mean, seriously, look at this shit. We're fucked payroll wise!

Oh my fucking God. I didn't realize it was that fucking bad. That's borderline criminal financial mismanagement.

You better hope Peyton retires quietly and doesn't try to force the Broncos to keep him another year. Even so, you are still going to have to pay Osweiller decent money or get another QB. Von Miller is about to become the highest paid defensive player in the league... somewhere, even if it's not Denver. And good thing you decided to keep D. Thomas (and his drops).  why so serious?

Jeez, even if you remove the $21 million cap hit you'll take with Peyton retiring, you're still only about $30 million under the cap. Normally that'd be a good number but with that list... yikes.

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Reply #208 on: February 09, 2016, 10:48:21 AM

Denver played it perfectly in my mind by the cap. They have a bunch of expiring contracts and they won a championship. Now they get to spend a couple of years redoing their roster with a new QB while they draft up some more talent and shed payroll.

Dynasties hardly exist in the NFL anymore under the new cap rules. You have a window of about 2-3 years, and then it implodes and you spend 3-4 more years rebuilding your shit. The Patriots are an exception to the rule as long as Brady is around, but once he leaves they will be just like everyone else.

That doesn't mean you can't make the playoffs while you figure it out, but it rarely means you have a Super Bowl caliber team while you rebuild.

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Reply #209 on: February 09, 2016, 10:52:17 AM

The problem is going to be making the playoffs for Denver, and a lot of that's going to depend on who is QB. The AFC West has gotten much better even if San Diego was a burning dumpster this year. The AFC playoff field was a good bit more competitive this year and there was only one top-to-bottom shitty division (AFC South) as opposed to the NFC's two really shitty divisions. They better hope they 1) sign/draft/resign a decent QB that stays healthy, 2) get a stud RB, and 3) can sign at least half of those defensive free agents. Otherwise it may get ugly.

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