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Author Topic: Stellaris - Paradox goes to space  (Read 25421 times)
Draegan
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Reply #140 on: November 03, 2017, 07:56:50 AM

I don't have the game but I watch the game quite a bit. I think it makes sense from a strategic point of view.
Ceryse
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Reply #141 on: November 03, 2017, 08:13:59 AM

I play the game, a lot, and the decision to change these core aspects of gameplay are fantastic and have been much needed. The Warp and Wormhole FTL styles have been strangling the game since release. Between the FTL and Starbase changes (and others coming, from what's been hinted at) the changes will go together pretty well. Sucks for those that play/prefer Warp style travel, but long run it is a much needed change for the game that should help them add a number of things that have been lacking, but couldn't because of how the three FTL approaches had to be handled.

The changes so far seem to have really pissed off a small fragment of the playerbase, but the majority seem to be supportive. I like that they had the balls to do this, because it was required for any of the really major issues to be resolved in a way that didn't just fuck over another aspect of gameplay.
satael
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Reply #142 on: November 03, 2017, 08:25:05 AM

Limiting it to hyperlanes does break things like the Star Trek mod but they should get around it unless the changes are so hardcoded that it is impossible (probably not since it's just easier to disable the old alternatives).
Khaldun
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Reply #143 on: November 03, 2017, 02:27:47 PM

I think it's a great change. 4X games don't work really well unless there are choke points that form naturally in the "terrain" of the game--those drive a lot of the strategy.
Lightstalker
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Reply #144 on: November 04, 2017, 01:18:02 AM

I think this is going to work out largely as they suggest.  I just knocked off the last achievements in the current game and when it came to my final 10 I switched from my preferred wormhole FTL to Hyperlane-only for the galaxy.  From my experience it will do much of what they propose, but syncing FTL types is always going to be annoying so there is still a lot of work to be done (have fun chasing down that Wraith limited to hyperlanes).

Static wormholes, Jumpgates, Stargates are sci-fi staples and I look forward to their introduction here.

The long cooldown on future JumpDrives is probably going to continue to give them trouble, probably in one of these two ways:
  • I jump in a construction ship build something annoying in your backfield (like a jumpgate perhaps).
  • I jump in a small fleet and set "Federation Rally" on it, then the AI goes bonkers or just cheats to rally there.
The first one might actually be cool, but might also lead to a wall of static defenses cutting their wall of static defenses off from the rest of their territory, which is silly.

Hyperlane bottlenecks will make unavoidable the doomstack problems latent in the game.  I was up against an fallen empire recently that awoke after our first skirmish (oops, built too close to the xenophobes) and came at me with a single fleet at over 1M power and a slight technology advantage, if I had to face it head on through a chokepoint I would have lost badly.  As it was, even though it was faster and had jump drives, I could still split forces and clear out starbases / win invasions while it chased the other fleet around their territory - taking advantage of their own FTL interdictors to make space to avoid the fleet.  After subsequent wars I ground down the fleet capacity and got over them, but had they bunkered behind that fleet I'd have had no viable attack vector for my 100k fleet.  Anyway, hope they improve the AI with this change because otherwise this improvement in strategic play will just put more pressure on existing weak points in fleet combat.
Teleku
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Reply #145 on: November 04, 2017, 01:43:18 PM

I started setting all of my games to hyper lane only for everybody long ago, so I obviously welcome this change.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Ceryse
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Reply #146 on: November 04, 2017, 02:50:28 PM

I've done the same and then went a step further; I modded my games to ensure everyone(thing) is hyper lane and stays that way. It always bothered me when setting it to hyper lane that FEs and Crisis forces not using hyper lanes and then propagating a different FTL type throughout the galaxy (same with the dimensional horror). So, I swapped them all to using the hyper lane engine. I keep the dimensional horror the same so I can kill it and tech jump drives to unlock one of the crisis types (I've also modded it so that all three crises can trigger in the same game) and then simply don't use the jump drive.

So far I'm really looking forward to the changes, and we're months out. It will be interesting to see how they tackle the doomstack issue, but so far I'm really liking (and agree with) the changes made so far to better the game and lay the ground work for getting rid of the doomstack issue.
satael
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Reply #147 on: November 04, 2017, 03:38:14 PM

There are very few things in the game that I wouldn't trade for an antidote to doomstacking since it really hurts the game. Hopefully they'll come up with some form of combat width (like in HOI or EU) limit to counter it.
Teleku
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Reply #148 on: November 09, 2017, 12:23:43 AM

Space Attrition!

 awesome, for real

But seriously, they probably need something like that.  It's how they (mostly) effectively deal with doom stacking in he EU games.


"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Ceryse
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Reply #149 on: November 09, 2017, 04:17:48 AM

Attrition is.. interesting. Could easily be done wrong,, given how much trouble they've had with it in EU 4 (they ended up capping it there because the AI couldn't handle it).

The removal of warscore is far more interesting, though; and quite possibly the biggest change yet in the coming patch.
satael
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Reply #150 on: November 09, 2017, 06:45:43 AM

Watched the Stellaris Design Corner on twitch from last week and it showed some of the stuff in development (like the new way expanding is handled) and it's going to change the game drastically and personally I'm excited to see how it turns out.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

edit:new dev diary is also out: #93: War, Peace and Claims
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 06:48:16 AM by satael »
Draegan
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Reply #151 on: November 09, 2017, 09:40:13 AM

As a viewer, watching some one take over territory in a war is the most boring aspect of the game.
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #152 on: November 10, 2017, 09:23:14 AM

Attrition is.. interesting. Could easily be done wrong,, given how much trouble they've had with it in EU 4 (they ended up capping it there because the AI couldn't handle it).

The removal of warscore is far more interesting, though; and quite possibly the biggest change yet in the coming patch.

Attrition has long been a problem for Paradox.

In EU4 IIRC the AI was exempted from attrition, at least on the naval side? Last I played it didn't even exist in CK2 they felt like they could get away with chucking because war was simplified and not the total focus of that game. Maybe they've improved the AI handling of it since then, they couldn't really dodge it for HOI4.

some kind of logistic cap will be necessary, and a harder one  (logistical limits) is better for the AI to handle over a softer one like attrition concepts.
Ceryse
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Reply #153 on: November 10, 2017, 11:40:03 AM


Attrition has long been a problem for Paradox.

In EU4 IIRC the AI was exempted from attrition, at least on the naval side? Last I played it didn't even exist in CK2 they felt like they could get away with chucking because war was simplified and not the total focus of that game. Maybe they've improved the AI handling of it since then, they couldn't really dodge it for HOI4.

some kind of logistic cap will be necessary, and a harder one  (logistical limits) is better for the AI to handle over a softer one like attrition concepts.

In EU 4 they aren't exempt from attrition. It has, however, been capped for the AI. First at 10%, then 5%. Initially they dealth with full attrition numbers are would get destroyed. AI for it is a lot better than it used to be, but remains poor (like all game AI). Navally they were exempt from attrition for a good while. Not sure if they still are, but I think so. There was at least some period of time when they weren't. But the EU 4 AI gets a lot of naval cheats (attrition, no terra incognita or fow, although the last two have some coding limits on how they can exploit the cheat).

Anyways, looks like the attrition in Stellaris isn't the same mechanic; it merely acts as the new form of war score; the more 'attrition' you suffer (gained from ship and troop losses in battles, planets and starbases occupied, war goals, etc.) the more likely the AI is to concede defeat. The claims system they are putting in should, finally, allow for wars that aren't all or nothing, though and even can offer a 'status quo' peace deal, where all sides involved merely keep what they've gained/lost in the war.

So far so good with it. Still need to see the other mechanics they're implementing targeting the deathstack issue, though. I know fleets now have a fleet cap on the number of ships they can have (boosted by tech, admirals, admiral level, traditions) but that alone won't cut it, and Wiz has said as much.
Mandella
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Reply #154 on: November 11, 2017, 01:39:44 PM

Sigh.. This is the game I keep coming back to after every patch, play to about the midway point, and quit. I'll have a fairly stable "empire," then I'll usually fight one big war with a neighbor (and usually win), then just never log back in again.

It's more me than the game though. Maybe I just don't really want to rule the galaxy -- I'm happy just being one of the nice countries getting along with its neighbors, and I do like the early exploration mode. But once the galaxy fills up with cranky aliens I just don't find it fun anymore...

 Heartbreak
Teleku
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Reply #155 on: November 12, 2017, 04:08:26 AM

That's a decent criticism.  The first half of the game where you are constantly finding new crazy space events and story lines is excellent.  They frankly could cut out all the other stuff and refine that portion, and have an excellent game (Basically, Star Trek).  The second half of the game is very different in feeling, and not as engaging (but still fun for me, if a bit tedious at times).

As with most Paradox games though, it always helps if you can get into the mood to role play your country/Empire (CK2 is obviously the biggest example of that, but it applies to all others).  I recently had a blast playing Skynet off a version of earth where the machines killed off humanity, and then moved aggressively to the stars to wipe out all civilization because it was the only way to logically keep from being attacked by organics.  Getting fully into character in how you interact and make decisions with the AI helps a ton with the empire building portion of the game.   awesome, for real   Similarly played through an EUIV campaign as a super merchant/expansionist Japan, that ended up colonizing the western half of North America and most of Mexico (now named Udon).

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Khaldun
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Reply #156 on: November 12, 2017, 06:23:55 AM

It really does need a second set of events in the 'winning' phase, though. The endgame event isn't really developed that well in that sense.
satael
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Reply #157 on: November 30, 2017, 07:30:43 AM

Dev Diary on doomstacks. Seems they are really trying to solve it at least partially.
Teleku
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Reply #158 on: November 30, 2017, 07:35:02 AM

This is why I shrug off the criticisms about Paradox and their DLC strategy.  Once a game goes live, they are constantly developing and refining it to a crazy extent.  They do this via the money they make from DLC, and I've put more time into paradox games than probably everything else combined in my life at this point.  Granted, half the time they break the game and then have to rush to patch in fixes, but eventually they get it all right.    awesome, for real

Only blight in the modern era is HoI4.  There are a ton of great ideas in a game with AI that makes the whole thing unplayable and/or unfun.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #159 on: November 30, 2017, 09:38:40 AM

I've been playing a bit HOI4 recently and it's been polished up a fair amount since release which was a complete mess but it's a bit of a strange beast because the devs have a very difficult job balancing off historical WW2 events which were absolutely bonkers like the pre-war diplomatic bluff moves Hitler did  (then they give the player the choice to reject the historical option) or the way they completely beat France in a month. I started a UK game which was pretty much over by the 1st year of the war because my dozen BEF divisions came over to reinforce the French and we for the most part held up the Germans in Belgium, that means basically game over for the German AI so you have to make  rules for yourself like not help the French to make the game more of a contest. AI could still use some fixes like building better tank divisions, more anti-tank stuff, more fighters and better deployment, etc which I am sure will come. I feel like HOI4 was basically done as a multiplayer game though, for WW2 grognards (a lot of them in the Paradox office). Most of the UI stuff patched in is really to make life easier for multiplayer people who can't pause the game. Paradox won't come and say it because it could cost them single player sales but this is really a multiplayer game. Still fun to play occasionally but can't get your expectations too high for single player.
satael
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Reply #160 on: November 30, 2017, 09:41:06 AM

This is why I shrug off the criticisms about Paradox and their DLC strategy.  Once a game goes live, they are constantly developing and refining it to a crazy extent.  They do this via the money they make from DLC, and I've put more time into paradox games than probably everything else combined in my life at this point.  Granted, half the time they break the game and then have to rush to patch in fixes, but eventually they get it all right.    awesome, for real

Only blight in the modern era is HoI4.  There are a ton of great ideas in a game with AI that makes the whole thing unplayable and/or unfun.

CK2 is 5 years old and it just released its latest DLC which I was happy to buy (though some of the features should have been in the free update instead). As to Stellaris it seems they are really trying to improve it with massive changes if need be.

Now if they only announced Rome 2 or Victoria 3...  why so serious?
satael
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Reply #161 on: November 30, 2017, 09:46:00 AM

I've been playing a bit HOI4 recently and it's been polished up a fair amount since release which was a complete mess but it's a bit of a strange beast because the devs have a very difficult job balancing off historical WW2 events which were absolutely bonkers like the pre-war diplomatic bluff moves Hitler did  (then they give the player the choice to reject the historical option) or the way they completely beat France in a month. I started a UK game which was pretty much over by the 1st year of the war because my dozen BEF divisions came over to reinforce the French and we for the most part held up the Germans in Belgium, that means basically game over for the German AI so you have to make  rules for yourself like not help the French to make the game more of a contest. AI could still use some fixes like building better tank divisions, more anti-tank stuff, more fighters and better deployment, etc which I am sure will come. I feel like HOI4 was basically done as a multiplayer game though, for WW2 grognards (a lot of them in the Paradox office). Most of the UI stuff patched in is really to make life easier for multiplayer people who can't pause the game. Paradox won't come and say it because it could cost them single player sales but this is really a multiplayer game. Still fun to play occasionally but can't get your expectations too high for single player.

I'm waiting on the next DLC before starting my next HOI4 game since I want to try playing Germany with overthrowing nazis (and restoring the Kaiser). I also want to check out the Japan-China(s) additions that are in the DLC (either as Manchukuo or warlords)
Teleku
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Reply #162 on: November 30, 2017, 09:50:08 AM

@Speedy

Yeah, the whole games a mess.  Several of the games I play, Germany gets overrun by the soviets in 1939.  Or just other stupid shit shit.  There is so much there, but it's all wasted on terrible AI.  I really want to like it, but they can't seem to make it worthwhile for me to do so!
Now if they only announced Rome 2 or Victoria 3...  why so serious?
Oh God, Victoria is the franchise I have the most nerd love over and want them to perfect so much.  They always sort of fuck it up (though I've had a lot of fun with the two previous Victoria games).  But fucking christ, if they ever made one that worked, I may actually flee from the world of the living and play it in my basement until Trump destroys the world in a totally avoidable nuclear holocaust. 

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #163 on: November 30, 2017, 11:36:20 AM

Oh yeah forgot to mention, that Star Trek New Horizons conversion for Stellaris is really good at least in the early game. Haven't really gotten past that yet.
satael
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Reply #164 on: January 11, 2018, 10:07:27 AM

Stellaris Dev Diary #100 - Titans and Planet Destroyers

So Titan class ships and planet destroyers are coming in the next dlc for Stellaris (along with the 2.0 that's going to release at the same time).  awesome, for real Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Teleku
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Reply #165 on: January 11, 2018, 10:17:44 AM


"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Khaldun
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Reply #166 on: January 11, 2018, 12:26:08 PM

I did a reasonably fun playthrough recently as the synthetic exterminator race. It did get grindy and dull near the end, but not for a long time. But this is where the endgame tech trees need a bit of work--each type of goal/species should get an Omega tech that's really hard to research--say that it takes not just exclusive attention from all three scientists but a mini-quest by multiple science ships (so that the opponents have a chance to potentially stop the science ships and slow it down, a bit like when you know an opponent in Civ is building the spaceship) that will make the endgame goal easier to realize. So maybe the synthetic exterminators can research a universal plague that kills all intelligent organisms, the slavers a device that creates mental compulsions to serve them all across the galaxy, and so on.
Draegan
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Reply #167 on: January 13, 2018, 03:51:16 PM

I watched a let's play on YouTube on the new robot race. After early and mid games it was dull. Taking over planets is dull tedium to watch and play.
Khaldun
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Reply #168 on: January 14, 2018, 07:38:42 AM

Yeah. The thing that made it especially tedious is that you have to leave a lot of troops in occupation because you're certain to have a revolt (understandably, given that the local population has nothing to lose by trying it). So you end up managing really huge numbers of armies rather than two or three large ones. I would prefer if you could do something quicker after a certain tech or point in the game, maybe at the cost of being continuously at war with all organics, or something like that.
satael
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Reply #169 on: January 25, 2018, 08:31:31 AM

Stellaris Apocalypse release date announced as Feb 22 (2.0 update should also be released at the same time).
This will be the first Paradox dlc in a while that I'm really looking forward to getting the day it's released.

story trailer
SurfD
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Reply #170 on: January 27, 2018, 04:01:11 AM

For anyone interested in giving this a whirl, Humble Bundle currently has a Paradox bundle going.  For the low minimum buy-in price of 12 dollars you can score Stellaris +7 other Paradox games.

https://www.humblebundle.com/games/paradox-bundle-2018

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
Typhon
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Reply #171 on: January 27, 2018, 02:37:26 PM

I've been trying to like this game for awhile but there are too many systems that I just don't like/give a fuck about.  Examples;

Leader aging and dying, especially science, as it leaves you without a way to do the higher experience science missions. 

Sectors.  Fucking sectors suck.  I don't even know what the concept is, they seem like all downside and no upside.  Yeah, it would be great that I didn't have to manage those planets that I can no longer (easily) see, except it seems like the minute I make a sector all the inhabitants get very unhappy, which STILL IS something that is my responsibility.  I mean seriously, what the fuck.

I just want to create massive space armadas and smash shit.  Way too much bullshit that I just don't care about.
Khaldun
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Reply #172 on: January 27, 2018, 05:11:37 PM

The aging rulers thing seems like a weak import of CK2 mechanics--they need to do something more with it. The way you get desperate to hold on to a great ruler in CK2, that kind of thing. It's occasionally an interesting mechanic in game-challenge terms when we're talking about scientists dying JUST when they're ready to do a tough mission or something--it's what makes the research that extend leader-lives worth it. Really the leaders need to have way more distinct personalities and/or bonuses/issues. I almost never have to pay attention to factions in my empire or anything of that sort, it's irrelevant to 99% of the gameplay.

Sectors annoy the hell out of me also. I grant you that I do not want to control 30+ systems manually, but having to put things into sectors just feels annoying. It's like inventory management. Everything I conquer that I have to sector feels like a waste, since the AI will do dumb shit with it in an inefficient way.
Typhon
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Reply #173 on: January 27, 2018, 05:18:56 PM

No dammit, I was hoping that you would tell me I was doing it wrong and that I should stop being a cry baby.   cry
Hoax
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l33t kiddie


Reply #174 on: January 27, 2018, 08:27:50 PM

I've been trying to like this game for awhile but there are too many systems that I just don't like/give a fuck about.  Examples;

Leader aging and dying, especially science, as it leaves you without a way to do the higher experience science missions. 

Sectors.  Fucking sectors suck.  I don't even know what the concept is, they seem like all downside and no upside.  Yeah, it would be great that I didn't have to manage those planets that I can no longer (easily) see, except it seems like the minute I make a sector all the inhabitants get very unhappy, which STILL IS something that is my responsibility.  I mean seriously, what the fuck.

I just want to create massive space armadas and smash shit.  Way too much bullshit that I just don't care about.

This is a game where you have to workshop mod out of the bits that get in your way. Both of those are very easy to fix.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
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