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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  PC/Console Gaming  |  Topic: Stellaris - Paradox goes to space 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Stellaris - Paradox goes to space  (Read 13066 times)
Draegan
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Reply #140 on: November 03, 2017, 07:56:50 AM

I don't have the game but I watch the game quite a bit. I think it makes sense from a strategic point of view.
Ceryse
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Reply #141 on: November 03, 2017, 08:13:59 AM

I play the game, a lot, and the decision to change these core aspects of gameplay are fantastic and have been much needed. The Warp and Wormhole FTL styles have been strangling the game since release. Between the FTL and Starbase changes (and others coming, from what's been hinted at) the changes will go together pretty well. Sucks for those that play/prefer Warp style travel, but long run it is a much needed change for the game that should help them add a number of things that have been lacking, but couldn't because of how the three FTL approaches had to be handled.

The changes so far seem to have really pissed off a small fragment of the playerbase, but the majority seem to be supportive. I like that they had the balls to do this, because it was required for any of the really major issues to be resolved in a way that didn't just fuck over another aspect of gameplay.
satael
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Reply #142 on: November 03, 2017, 08:25:05 AM

Limiting it to hyperlanes does break things like the Star Trek mod but they should get around it unless the changes are so hardcoded that it is impossible (probably not since it's just easier to disable the old alternatives).
Khaldun
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Reply #143 on: November 03, 2017, 02:27:47 PM

I think it's a great change. 4X games don't work really well unless there are choke points that form naturally in the "terrain" of the game--those drive a lot of the strategy.
Lightstalker
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Reply #144 on: November 04, 2017, 01:18:02 AM

I think this is going to work out largely as they suggest.  I just knocked off the last achievements in the current game and when it came to my final 10 I switched from my preferred wormhole FTL to Hyperlane-only for the galaxy.  From my experience it will do much of what they propose, but syncing FTL types is always going to be annoying so there is still a lot of work to be done (have fun chasing down that Wraith limited to hyperlanes).

Static wormholes, Jumpgates, Stargates are sci-fi staples and I look forward to their introduction here.

The long cooldown on future JumpDrives is probably going to continue to give them trouble, probably in one of these two ways:
  • I jump in a construction ship build something annoying in your backfield (like a jumpgate perhaps).
  • I jump in a small fleet and set "Federation Rally" on it, then the AI goes bonkers or just cheats to rally there.
The first one might actually be cool, but might also lead to a wall of static defenses cutting their wall of static defenses off from the rest of their territory, which is silly.

Hyperlane bottlenecks will make unavoidable the doomstack problems latent in the game.  I was up against an fallen empire recently that awoke after our first skirmish (oops, built too close to the xenophobes) and came at me with a single fleet at over 1M power and a slight technology advantage, if I had to face it head on through a chokepoint I would have lost badly.  As it was, even though it was faster and had jump drives, I could still split forces and clear out starbases / win invasions while it chased the other fleet around their territory - taking advantage of their own FTL interdictors to make space to avoid the fleet.  After subsequent wars I ground down the fleet capacity and got over them, but had they bunkered behind that fleet I'd have had no viable attack vector for my 100k fleet.  Anyway, hope they improve the AI with this change because otherwise this improvement in strategic play will just put more pressure on existing weak points in fleet combat.
Teleku
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Reply #145 on: November 04, 2017, 01:43:18 PM

I started setting all of my games to hyper lane only for everybody long ago, so I obviously welcome this change.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Ceryse
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Reply #146 on: November 04, 2017, 02:50:28 PM

I've done the same and then went a step further; I modded my games to ensure everyone(thing) is hyper lane and stays that way. It always bothered me when setting it to hyper lane that FEs and Crisis forces not using hyper lanes and then propagating a different FTL type throughout the galaxy (same with the dimensional horror). So, I swapped them all to using the hyper lane engine. I keep the dimensional horror the same so I can kill it and tech jump drives to unlock one of the crisis types (I've also modded it so that all three crises can trigger in the same game) and then simply don't use the jump drive.

So far I'm really looking forward to the changes, and we're months out. It will be interesting to see how they tackle the doomstack issue, but so far I'm really liking (and agree with) the changes made so far to better the game and lay the ground work for getting rid of the doomstack issue.
satael
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Reply #147 on: November 04, 2017, 03:38:14 PM

There are very few things in the game that I wouldn't trade for an antidote to doomstacking since it really hurts the game. Hopefully they'll come up with some form of combat width (like in HOI or EU) limit to counter it.
Teleku
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Reply #148 on: November 09, 2017, 12:23:43 AM

Space Attrition!

 awesome, for real

But seriously, they probably need something like that.  It's how they (mostly) effectively deal with doom stacking in he EU games.


"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Ceryse
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Reply #149 on: November 09, 2017, 04:17:48 AM

Attrition is.. interesting. Could easily be done wrong,, given how much trouble they've had with it in EU 4 (they ended up capping it there because the AI couldn't handle it).

The removal of warscore is far more interesting, though; and quite possibly the biggest change yet in the coming patch.
satael
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Reply #150 on: November 09, 2017, 06:45:43 AM

Watched the Stellaris Design Corner on twitch from last week and it showed some of the stuff in development (like the new way expanding is handled) and it's going to change the game drastically and personally I'm excited to see how it turns out.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

edit:new dev diary is also out: #93: War, Peace and Claims
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 06:48:16 AM by satael »
Draegan
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Reply #151 on: November 09, 2017, 09:40:13 AM

As a viewer, watching some one take over territory in a war is the most boring aspect of the game.
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #152 on: November 10, 2017, 09:23:14 AM

Attrition is.. interesting. Could easily be done wrong,, given how much trouble they've had with it in EU 4 (they ended up capping it there because the AI couldn't handle it).

The removal of warscore is far more interesting, though; and quite possibly the biggest change yet in the coming patch.

Attrition has long been a problem for Paradox.

In EU4 IIRC the AI was exempted from attrition, at least on the naval side? Last I played it didn't even exist in CK2 they felt like they could get away with chucking because war was simplified and not the total focus of that game. Maybe they've improved the AI handling of it since then, they couldn't really dodge it for HOI4.

some kind of logistic cap will be necessary, and a harder one  (logistical limits) is better for the AI to handle over a softer one like attrition concepts.
Ceryse
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Reply #153 on: November 10, 2017, 11:40:03 AM


Attrition has long been a problem for Paradox.

In EU4 IIRC the AI was exempted from attrition, at least on the naval side? Last I played it didn't even exist in CK2 they felt like they could get away with chucking because war was simplified and not the total focus of that game. Maybe they've improved the AI handling of it since then, they couldn't really dodge it for HOI4.

some kind of logistic cap will be necessary, and a harder one  (logistical limits) is better for the AI to handle over a softer one like attrition concepts.

In EU 4 they aren't exempt from attrition. It has, however, been capped for the AI. First at 10%, then 5%. Initially they dealth with full attrition numbers are would get destroyed. AI for it is a lot better than it used to be, but remains poor (like all game AI). Navally they were exempt from attrition for a good while. Not sure if they still are, but I think so. There was at least some period of time when they weren't. But the EU 4 AI gets a lot of naval cheats (attrition, no terra incognita or fow, although the last two have some coding limits on how they can exploit the cheat).

Anyways, looks like the attrition in Stellaris isn't the same mechanic; it merely acts as the new form of war score; the more 'attrition' you suffer (gained from ship and troop losses in battles, planets and starbases occupied, war goals, etc.) the more likely the AI is to concede defeat. The claims system they are putting in should, finally, allow for wars that aren't all or nothing, though and even can offer a 'status quo' peace deal, where all sides involved merely keep what they've gained/lost in the war.

So far so good with it. Still need to see the other mechanics they're implementing targeting the deathstack issue, though. I know fleets now have a fleet cap on the number of ships they can have (boosted by tech, admirals, admiral level, traditions) but that alone won't cut it, and Wiz has said as much.
Mandella
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Reply #154 on: November 11, 2017, 01:39:44 PM

Sigh.. This is the game I keep coming back to after every patch, play to about the midway point, and quit. I'll have a fairly stable "empire," then I'll usually fight one big war with a neighbor (and usually win), then just never log back in again.

It's more me than the game though. Maybe I just don't really want to rule the galaxy -- I'm happy just being one of the nice countries getting along with its neighbors, and I do like the early exploration mode. But once the galaxy fills up with cranky aliens I just don't find it fun anymore...

 Heartbreak
Teleku
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Reply #155 on: November 12, 2017, 04:08:26 AM

That's a decent criticism.  The first half of the game where you are constantly finding new crazy space events and story lines is excellent.  They frankly could cut out all the other stuff and refine that portion, and have an excellent game (Basically, Star Trek).  The second half of the game is very different in feeling, and not as engaging (but still fun for me, if a bit tedious at times).

As with most Paradox games though, it always helps if you can get into the mood to role play your country/Empire (CK2 is obviously the biggest example of that, but it applies to all others).  I recently had a blast playing Skynet off a version of earth where the machines killed off humanity, and then moved aggressively to the stars to wipe out all civilization because it was the only way to logically keep from being attacked by organics.  Getting fully into character in how you interact and make decisions with the AI helps a ton with the empire building portion of the game.   awesome, for real   Similarly played through an EUIV campaign as a super merchant/expansionist Japan, that ended up colonizing the western half of North America and most of Mexico (now named Udon).

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Khaldun
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Reply #156 on: November 12, 2017, 06:23:55 AM

It really does need a second set of events in the 'winning' phase, though. The endgame event isn't really developed that well in that sense.
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