Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online

[Falconeer]

Honestly, the "best deal" seems to be the 30$ one. Maybe 40$. Everything else, raises the traditional question that we used a million times for the king of non-existent games: "Why?".

[Threash]

The extra character slots and free sub time .

[Falconeer]

Still for a game that doesn't exist. It's like saying "I paid 125$ for the extra spaceship, the mining barge, the insurance and the Chris Roberts in-game poster".

Can we have a game first?

[Rasix]

Can we have a game first?

I mean fuck.. this is a Kickstarter for a MMO.  Might as well back a Molyneux-Schafer-Hall zombie Fable space simulator.   I hope one of the tiers is some tubing and a box of mason jars to capture your tears.

[Threash]

Still for a game that doesn't exist. It's like saying "I paid 125$ for the extra spaceship, the mining barge, the insurance and the Chris Roberts in-game poster".

Can we have a game first?

You can say the exact same thing for the first 30 bucks, your limit is only based on your disposable income.

[Falconeer]

My limit is the minimum to get the game in case it gets released but my disposable income is much higher than 30 dollars. Yet I feel there's a fine line between "ok, I hope more games like these will be made so let's assume I'll pre-order the box regardless" and "oh not only it will be made but it will be SO GOOD that I already know I want extra character slots, months of subscriptions and some more crap!".

The point is, not only we don't know if it'll be made, we don't even know if it'll be fun to play. Disposable income doesn't mean you hate money. Spending more than a box price on a game *in this stage* justifies all the Star Citizens idiots (and forbids you from making fun of them ever again).

[Merusk]

Honestly, the "best deal" seems to be the 30$ one. Maybe 40$. Everything else, raises the traditional question that we used a million times for the king of non-existent games: "Why?".

I expect they'll release something, so I have no fears of a Roberts-level "pump the idiots" scheme.  I justs don't think it'll be successful.

As I said before, some of the $150 and up tiers were tugging at my vanity.  

Knowing I could immortalize myself or one of my Avatars in their procedural engine is a strong pull for me. If I suspected this game were going to be successful at all I'd probably have jumped on at least the $250 bandwagon. I'm doing jack with that cash besides saving for a vacation at the moment. I can take a slightly shorter one instead and have a day at home for that ego stroking.

On the other hand I refuse to give-up creative license for those characters so fuck that.  

[Paelos]

The only thing I don't believe these guys can release is a game with the destructible environments they are trying to purport. That shit never seems to work. It usually just ends up being a few points in each area you can knock down.

I'm middling in my belief that they can make procedural worlds work. It's a big step forward if they can make that fun and implemented.

The rest? It's boiler-plate MMO fare and frankly not that hard. Maybe the crafting system is a big more robust, but nothing like we haven't seen before with other games.

[kaid]

As for destructible world they are using the voxel farm engine that land mark is using so if they actually keep it fully destructible is what the world will be not just a few parts of walls like the old shadowbane.

How they balance siege warfare when people can potentially burrow under your walls is going to be interesting.

[Merusk]

Voxels are the game-changer for destrutability, Paelos. I don't know enough/ haven't seen them utilized in enough games to know how they'd work with a physics engine. However, think Minecraft with better resolution and they can do a lot.  The stuff out of EQ: Landmark was incredible and used similar voxel tech.

How they balance siege warfare when people can potentially burrow under your walls is going to be interesting.

I'm willing to bet that it won't have undermining, but who knows. Different durability for each material might be enough to make undermining riskier than breaching the walls.

[Malakili]

Medieval Engineers uses a similar system. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpS5XGjb3jg

[Paelos]

I'd be fine with undermining if there was a heavy time component to it, much like a real world siege.

It should be obvious what they are trying, and not something that can be accomplished in a few minutes.

[Threash]

First few stretch goals.

[Nija]

This is the next cult for people to worship after the Chris Roberts thing. Hell, we may seem some dual-classing cultists!

[Paelos]

Sounds like Eric is getting fired.

Also, this won't even come close to CR status. This is about showing other investors the game has pull, not funding it all.

[Nija]

I just get that feeling from reading some of the crazy what if threads going around right now talking about pie in the sky features. It's really convenient that everything can be answered by saying, "we'll make a new campaign for that!"

[Paelos]

I don't get the impression from these guys. I think they have a very defined game they want to produce, and the additional funds would only be related to polish.

[Triforcer]

More early bird amber slots opened up, just did that ($215)- my first ever kickstarter.  As I mentioned earlier, I wish this had given me an excuse to go to the $500 tier, but nothing there jumps out at me.  I find it difficult to believe this will amount to no game at all (although I'm sure December 2016 will slip).

[Threash]

More early bird amber slots opened up, just did that ($215)- my first ever kickstarter.  As I mentioned earlier, I wish this had given me an excuse to go to the $500 tier, but nothing there jumps out at me.  I find it difficult to believe this will amount to no game at all (although I'm sure December 2016 will slip).

What don't you want access to the shittiest alpha and to name a place after yourself? Think about it, there might be an actual Bat Country somewhere! (I kicked in 215 also).

[schild]

More early bird amber slots opened up, just did that ($215)- my first ever kickstarter.  As I mentioned earlier, I wish this had given me an excuse to go to the $500 tier, but nothing there jumps out at me.  I find it difficult to believe this will amount to no game at all (although I'm sure December 2016 will slip).

You're a moron.

And you, Threash.

[schild]

Part of me wants to try and be nice about it. But sinking money into old school MMOG devs strikes me as just maybe the only thing dumber than throwing money at Chris Roberts.

It's an entire section of the industry where even their successes are still amazing failures.

[Falconeer]

Aaaaand it's funded. With 27 days to go.

[Triforcer]

More early bird amber slots opened up, just did that ($215)- my first ever kickstarter.  As I mentioned earlier, I wish this had given me an excuse to go to the $500 tier, but nothing there jumps out at me.  I find it difficult to believe this will amount to no game at all (although I'm sure December 2016 will slip).

You're a moron.

And you, Threash.

Don't we have an entire thread in General Discussion about how people are funding erotic elf cat-girl figurines and whatever?  By definition, kickstarting anything is fairly moronic. 

[schild]

I bet the people funding erotic elf cat-girl figurines will get more enjoyment from their Kickstarter pledge than those funding Also-Ran, the MMOG.

[tmp]

erotic elf cat-girl figurines

wait, what?

[Paelos]

I bet the people funding erotic elf cat-girl figurines will get more enjoyment from their Kickstarter pledge than those funding Also-Ran, the MMOG.

OK so you're betting failure. What are the terms? That it never releases? That closes a year after release? I enjoy MMO bets.

[KallDrexx]

It doesn't have anything to do with betting failure either.  Why pay $215 right now for a game not any close to release, that will release for $60 with no sub(!) and a non-game breaking cash shop.....   I just don't fucking understand.

I'd rather spend $400 in a year or so when I have the game in hand than spend $215 now and sit on my ass and wait for a long ass time, hoping it's good.

[Paelos]

I don't disagree. I don't like Kickstarters in general for that exact reason.

I still think people saw the ridiculous "play to crush" nonsense at the beginning of the project, made up their minds, and are going to ignore all the other stuff here that seems fairly progressive in the MMO space.

[Threash]

I still think people saw the ridiculous "play to crush" nonsense at the beginning of the project

The funny thing is the original play to crush pitch for shadowbane was making fun of crafters, which this game heavily features.  "We don't play to bake bread" and all.

[Teleku]

It doesn't have anything to do with betting failure either.  Why pay $215 right now for a game not any close to release, that will release for $60 with no sub(!) and a non-game breaking cash shop.....   I just don't fucking understand.

I'd rather spend $400 in a year or so when I have the game in hand than spend $215 now and sit on my ass and wait for a long ass time, hoping it's good.

It’s to help the game get created.  That’s how I treat almost all my Kickstarter pledges.  I'm throwing money at people who gave me enjoyment in the past, so they have a chance of making something else I might like.  It’s them cashing in on their good standing, and I have no problem with that.  If that good game doesn't come to pass, oh well, they gave me a lot of enjoyment before, so now we're even.  Except physical products like Board Games (which will almost certainly get made as all they need is money to get shit they already designed printed), I treat all my Kickstarter’s like donations rather than pre-orders.

I want to at least see somebody attempt to the make the game they are describing, so I'm happy to donate to make that attempt happen.

Though I didn't throw $215 at them, heh.

[Threash]

They have 820k in pledges and 8200 backers, so at least we are not the only crazy ones.

[shiznitz]

But they need 10x that 8200 as customers to be financially viable.  I am not commenting on whether that is likely or unlikely.

[pxib]

I still think people saw the ridiculous "play to crush" nonsense at the beginning of the project, made up their minds, and are going to ignore all the other stuff here that seems fairly progressive in the MMO space.

The "play to crush" nonsense, poorly implemented or just poorly populated, can easily squeeze the joy out of any progressive ideas they come up with. It has in the past, and it shall again. Accessible, comprehensible power curves are what keep most players playing. What do I need to do in order to take the next step, and is it reliable enough that I won't get stuck?

In DIKU Skinner boxes, the answer is Yes all the way to the endgame. In player-dominated PvP environments, the answer is frequently No... or Not in Your Guild of Friends, or Not Unless it's 2am, or Not During the Weekend, or Not With Your Skills.

Worse yet, progressive ideas are not necessarily good ideas. The concept may be appealing, but implementation (or even just the reality of a sensible execution) may turn out to be considerably less fun than they seemed. Guarding caravans as they ship supplies through enemy territory? Neat! Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain only to be ambushed by the zerg and defeated by the lag within four frame-per-second sight of our goal? Ugh. Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain and never being ambushed? What am I doing with my life?

Yes, people do this sort of thing all the time in EVE and some of them may secretly have always wanted a generic high fantasy medieval version of the same, but I rather suspect it's the other way around: More people play EVE because it's ship v. ship combat in space than because it's a PvP free-for-all. More people play World War II Online and World of Tanks because they're wargaming grognards than because of the particulars of their innovations and implementation.

Can Crowfall's version of  Play to Crush work? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. Not even $5.

[Malakili]

Guarding caravans as they ship supplies through enemy territory? Neat! Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain only to be ambushed by the zerg and defeated by the lag within four frame-per-second sight of our goal? Ugh. Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain and never being ambushed? What am I doing with my life?

This sums up the main hurdle this sort of game needs to overcome rather succinctly. 

[Paelos]

Poor implementation can ruin anything. That's a given. It practically goes without saying, but I guess we're saying it again.

I don't see anything they are promising that strikes me as tough to implement other than the procedural part. In normal pvp games you acquire gear and that lasts you forever as you assrape people until the next set of gear. In this game, you're being dropped naked into a new land every month or so. I can see that being much more fun since the game keeps resetting you to a degree back to your regular space.

Guarding caravans sounds like a time/reward thing. If there's little risk of attack, fewer people will do it. If there's more, more people will do it. The risk of an attack usually determines what people do in these games, and where those attacks will occur.

Also I think there's plenty of people who don't play EVE specifically because it's in space.