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Author Topic: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online  (Read 541269 times)
sam, an eggplant
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Reply #70 on: December 29, 2014, 12:25:52 PM

What MMO is actually massive? Outside of standing idle in a city, would you ever notice the difference between 50 or 2000 people on a WOW server? I think that's the problem some people have. 
Sure, the economy is the most obvious answer to that. You're all competing for llimited resources in a persistent world. Also player organizations like guilds. And you see tons of people gathering for periodic events like holidays.
HaemishM
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Reply #71 on: December 29, 2014, 09:35:31 PM

DayZ started as a mod for another game that sold enough copies of the original game that the modmaker got offered a job. If it ever gets finished/released as an actual product, it might prove something other than "gamers are so desperate for fun they will make their own in a buggy, unfinished mess and pay for the privilege." It IS an indictment of how fucking horrible AAA game development has become that those things prove to be better experiences than something that had millions spent on it.

I have also advocated MMOG's embrace the niche since at least 2002 or whenever I started writing for Waterthread. However, this does not seem like that - this seems like failed MMOG devs clinging to their failed ideologies of game design like McQuaid, only with less opiates.

Sky
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Reply #72 on: December 30, 2014, 10:27:46 AM

Thank god for those old warhorses allowing all the old arguments to come back into play. It's been too long!

Countdown to crowdfunding appeal in 3...2...actually they have the counter on their website.
Malakili
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Reply #73 on: December 30, 2014, 11:20:36 AM


Countdown to crowdfunding appea

Part of the catch-22 is that one of the draws of crowdfunding is getting in on the ground floor of the next big thing.  The second they drop the "we're the next big thing" line and embrace the niche that Haemish mentions, I think a lot of the desire to crowdfund goes with it.
Draegan
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Reply #74 on: December 30, 2014, 06:05:13 PM



I think anyone who has played in an MMO where there server population is dying can tell you there is a pretty big qualitative difference in the experience. There is something about a persistent world that that is self contained.  Just that pool of players, just that pool of characters, just that finite space.   Running into a guy questing in the same area all week because you both log in after work every day, make friends, add to your friends list, team up for dungeons in your level range.  That kind of stuff is really compelling in a way that isn't replicated by games that instance all their zones such that I never see the same people twice.  So yeah, the difference between 50 people and 2000 people does matter a lot.

As for the alpha backing things - I think it's fine to do and play IF you can get something out of the game immediately.  However, I am honestly pretty nervous about what it means for the hobby as a whole when there is a lot of incentive to put something out there that is unfinished by kind of compelling because you can make loads of cash off the hype.  I've done it a few times myself and have had mixed results.  I've been pretty judicious, so I've only felt like I really made a mistake once. 



I guess you can romanticize anything. Does WOW even have empty servers anymore? Don't they do that cluster/phasing thing where you're always with someone for the most part? I mean if you're still doing static servers and you're on a dead one, it's going to make a difference sure. But for your average, level cap player in WOW. You will never notice the difference.
Malakili
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Reply #75 on: December 30, 2014, 07:24:48 PM

I mean I guess I'm romanticizing it?  I've spent a lot of time on exactly 3 MMOs over the years.  World War 2 Online, EVE, and World of Warcraft.  I've played dozens of others, but none of the others touched those three in terms of pure time spent.  I haven't played WoW since they did that cluster thing. 
sam, an eggplant
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Reply #76 on: December 30, 2014, 08:11:20 PM

I've tried everything and only WoW has kept my interest for more than a couple of weeks-- and even then, I only play for the first month or three of each expansion pack.

I keep GW2 and NWN installed, though, and I play around with each new patch and content update. That's the beauty of F2P.
Draegan
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Reply #77 on: December 31, 2014, 12:35:27 PM

I mean I guess I'm romanticizing it?  I've spent a lot of time on exactly 3 MMOs over the years.  World War 2 Online, EVE, and World of Warcraft.  I've played dozens of others, but none of the others touched those three in terms of pure time spent.  I haven't played WoW since they did that cluster thing. 

That's only because almost every MMORPG in the classic since has been garbage for the most part. Each one that comes out has some new feature that is interesting but the games overall are usually terrible. I'll list everything each game did that got me to play it at least once.

TESO - Great graphics, great class system. Almost really good combat that was awful because of delays, animation and weapon swapping lag.
GW2 - Excellent world creation. Fun combat/skill system.
Wildstar - Uhm. I can't think of anything. I really tried to find something good about the game. I only played it because I was bored.
NWN - Great combat, easy to play and get into. Just down right fun.
ArcheAge - Great class system, had hints of a good sandbox (which was a failure imo).
SWTOR - Excellent story mode. And it was Star Wars.
TERA - Amazing combat system.

However most of these games lacked content, or the content they did have was boring and not compelling. GW2/TESO had the whole instanced pvp thing that was just a boring as fuck zerg fest with no stickiness. Wildstar was just a clusterfuck and an example of how NOT to design a game (I'm giving them a large benefit of the doubt by saying the game was actually design by some coherent sentient being). NWN is great, but it's a paywall game. AA was boring and grinding and RNG as fuck. SWTOR was just another boring as fuck DIKU game (which actually has gotten a lot better, unfortunately you can't level by doing storymode only anymore). TERA was just boring as shit with crazy RNG and no real content when you stopped doing the combat thing and looked up.

Anyway. Whatever. Happy New Year. Here's to watching more failures with whatever Sony puts out, Black Desert and all those kickstarter games.
Ginaz
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Reply #78 on: December 31, 2014, 12:50:16 PM

If there's ever a new MMO Jesus that the masses are raving about, it'll have to be either f2p or b2p for me to play.  Sub games are no longer superior in any way.  The past few years I've sunk more time into games like Neverwinter, Warframe, Marvel Heroes and World of Tanks than I have in any sub based game.
Threash
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Reply #79 on: December 31, 2014, 01:33:17 PM

Wildstar - Uhm. I can't think of anything. I really tried to find something good about the game. I only played it because I was bored.

Great marketing?

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Draegan
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Reply #80 on: December 31, 2014, 01:58:12 PM

Wildstar - Uhm. I can't think of anything. I really tried to find something good about the game. I only played it because I was bored.

Great marketing?

I wrote that, but deleted it. I knew the game was shit while the great marketing was going on because I had a chance to play it early. So it wasn't a reason for me.
Threash
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Reply #81 on: December 31, 2014, 02:36:45 PM

I knew the game was shit when i learned it was raid focused but i'll be damned if their videos didn't want to make me play it really really bad.

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Draegan
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Reply #82 on: December 31, 2014, 06:50:32 PM

It really wasn't raid focused more than any other DIKU MMO. They just really liked to talk about the 2-3 raid zones they had. There was a shit load of (shitty) content for you to do without raiding.
apocrypha
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Reply #83 on: January 01, 2015, 12:08:32 AM

Only ~0.3% of WildStar's players have cleared the first tier of raiding are are even eligible for the second (72*20 out of ~500,000 sales). Only ~1.3% have killed any raid boss at all.

http://www.wildstar-progress.com/rankings/prad/world/vanilla/genetic_archives

Copy/pasted on mobile device, sorry if formatting comes out funky.

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rk47
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Reply #84 on: January 01, 2015, 05:40:26 AM

'Only ~0.3% of WildStar's players have cleared the first tier of raiding are are even eligible for the second (72*20 out of ~500,000 sales). Only ~1.3% have killed any raid boss at all.'

Great success for the devs at beating the players, then?  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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Rendakor
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Reply #85 on: January 01, 2015, 08:38:12 AM

I have a DM that would be so proud.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Threash
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Reply #86 on: January 01, 2015, 09:24:14 AM

Every minute spent on developing raid content is wasted development time.  Gazillion did the same in Marvel Heroes, but it only took them like a month to realize they needed to dumb down the raids so much ten monkeys with learning disabilities could get through them.

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Draegan
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Reply #87 on: January 01, 2015, 01:01:13 PM

Honestly, fighting big bad guys with a bunch of people can be fun, just most developers don't know how to make a fight because the underlining mechanics of their games are shit. DIKU games so finely tuned their raids that one mistake wipes the group and you have to start all over again. Then toss in that DIKU games aren't inherently fun to actually play, it's stupid design. DIKU is about making bigger numbers, not actually having fun playing the game.

ARPGs don't really lend to large groups of people playing at once in my opinion. 5 or so people at once is almost enough.

I can think of a few dozen ways to make "raiding" or large group content more entertaining and it certaining doesn't involved playing dance dance revolution against a single large NPC while pressing 12323231415 in your rotation.
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Reply #88 on: January 01, 2015, 05:03:46 PM

I would rather see randomized encounters. Wandering bosses as well as dungeons. Switch things up on people so it isn't just memorizing a strategy and herding cats for hours.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Malakili
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Reply #89 on: January 01, 2015, 05:17:28 PM

The problem, as it is with all team games, is how much do you want to be playing a game where joe random can ruin your fun because he sucks at the game?  Or even from the other side of the equation in good faith - do you want to play a game where you are under the pressure of knowing if you don't play well you've ruined someone else's session?  When you have a group of like-minded, good players MMO raid and difficult dungeon content is very fun and engaging.  When you don't, it's a total nightmare that makes you feel like you wasted an evening.  But then, League of Legends et al. are the same way and people play those by the millions.
Threash
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Reply #90 on: January 01, 2015, 05:33:48 PM

But in pvp having someone to blame when you lose is if not a feature at least beneficial to the ego.

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HaemishM
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Reply #91 on: January 01, 2015, 06:37:23 PM

But then, League of Legends et al. are the same way and people play those by the millions.

Yeah, LoL and other MOBA's, as frustrating as they can be, are also IMMENSELY popular as well as INSANELY addictive. The only fun part about DIKU MMOG raids is if you are leader and I don't think "FUN" is the actual word to use. The challenging bit, maybe. The rest, at the individual raider level, is all execution. PVP MOBA's are infinitely more interesting to play.

Rendakor
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Reply #92 on: January 01, 2015, 06:47:56 PM

Challenging is a better word, although I think I'd go with stressful. You get stuff like the 50 dkp minus thing because no matter how hard you try, one of your cats will inevitably fail to be herded at a crucial moment.

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Malakili
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Reply #93 on: January 01, 2015, 07:08:04 PM

But in pvp having someone to blame when you lose is if not a feature at least beneficial to the ego.

I guess.  For me it's maddening.  For me team games really REQUIRE a good team for me to get the most out of them. When I was in a Counter-Strike and Team Fortress clan, i loved those games.  But, ironically, something like Starcraft 2 ends up being a better "casual" game for me because I can depend entirely on myself without having to worry about anyone else, so it always fits my schedule and level of play.
Rendakor
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Reply #94 on: January 01, 2015, 07:11:07 PM

I'm with Mal, although I hate being the guy that lets his team down even more than having teammates ruin my day.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Draegan
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Reply #95 on: January 01, 2015, 07:54:06 PM

Thats the problem with "modern day" raids. One person can fuck everyone's night with mistakes but there is no room for one person to be the hero of everyone's night. That's part of why LOL is fun. You can feed, but one person on your team can carry you. In a typical raid, one mistake basically wastes 20 minutes of everyones night and people hate you and it happens in a heart beat.
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Reply #96 on: January 01, 2015, 08:11:15 PM

The problem, as it is with all team games, is how much do you want to be playing a game where joe random can ruin your fun because he sucks at the game?  Or even from the other side of the equation in good faith - do you want to play a game where you are under the pressure of knowing if you don't play well you've ruined someone else's session?  When you have a group of like-minded, good players MMO raid and difficult dungeon content is very fun and engaging.  When you don't, it's a total nightmare that makes you feel like you wasted an evening.  But then, League of Legends et al. are the same way and people play those by the millions.

Literally tens of thousands of people just like that in Word Of Tanks every. fucking. day.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Soulflame
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Reply #97 on: January 01, 2015, 08:48:17 PM

Thats the problem with "modern day" raids. One person can fuck everyone's night with mistakes but there is no room for one person to be the hero of everyone's night. That's part of why LOL is fun. You can feed, but one person on your team can carry you. In a typical raid, one mistake basically wastes 20 minutes of everyones night and people hate you and it happens in a heart beat.

Is this actually the case? I thought one of the worst things about MOBAs is that it's almost impossible for one person to carry a bunch of "bads".  Or even four people to carry one guy who isn't playing well, or even in sync with the general strategy.

I can tell some stories about one guy being a hero in raids.  My favorite has to be our druid healer who had to pop open his spell book to find bear form so that he could "tank" the last 2% of the first kill of a boss in Ulduar.
Rendakor
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Reply #98 on: January 01, 2015, 09:02:20 PM

I've got a couple raider-hero stories too, but when I really thought about it there were so many more fights where 1 fuckup can wipe the raid.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Draegan
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Reply #99 on: January 02, 2015, 12:18:13 AM

Thats the problem with "modern day" raids. One person can fuck everyone's night with mistakes but there is no room for one person to be the hero of everyone's night. That's part of why LOL is fun. You can feed, but one person on your team can carry you. In a typical raid, one mistake basically wastes 20 minutes of everyones night and people hate you and it happens in a heart beat.

Is this actually the case? I thought one of the worst things about MOBAs is that it's almost impossible for one person to carry a bunch of "bads".  Or even four people to carry one guy who isn't playing well, or even in sync with the general strategy.

I can tell some stories about one guy being a hero in raids.  My favorite has to be our druid healer who had to pop open his spell book to find bear form so that he could "tank" the last 2% of the first kill of a boss in Ulduar.

Yes. The last time you could be a hero in a raid was EQ from all the stories I hear in neckbeard land. In any case, yes in LOL you can carry 4 other average players to victory. There are certain champs you can play that just destroy others if you get ahead and play well. You can look up some of the top players in the world and watch some vids of them going from Unranked to Diamond in X Days and watch them carry.

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Reply #100 on: January 02, 2015, 05:24:55 AM

Yeah, one guy can carry hard in LoL.  Of course it also depends heavily on how competent the other team is, but I've been in matches where the other team may as well have had 4 of their players stay back at base and they still would have won.

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Bzalthek
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Reply #101 on: January 02, 2015, 12:37:10 PM

I personally don't like how fragile the raiding scene has become.  A lot of times 1 person makes 1 mistake and there goes an hour of prep time. 

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Rendakor
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Reply #102 on: January 02, 2015, 12:47:32 PM

I'm not actually sure anyone likes it. The problem is that devs seem to think the only alternative is some LFR-style faceroll nonsense.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Threash
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Reply #103 on: January 02, 2015, 01:00:42 PM

People sure love LFR faceroll nonsense though.

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Xanthippe
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Reply #104 on: January 03, 2015, 12:00:40 PM

There's a fun/ease of play threshold. Too easy and quits being fun. Too hard and quits being fun.

LFR has to be on the easy side because there are too many undergeared or people who don't understand their class mechanics well enough who still want a shot at the loot.

I was a little excited at first to see this thread because when I saw Old School MMO I was thinking of crafting systems. Why do they seem to be evolving to be more terrible instead of better? (At least for Blizzard). UO had fun crafting, and it's been downhill since.

I guess that's what Minecraft is for.
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