Endless Legend?

[Khaldun]

Cultists are hilarious fun. Takes a very different playstyle and they have a really different order of tech advances that they just have to get (and others that are of zero use). I found I had to have at least two roving single armies hoovering up all the Dust from ruins in the first two winters or I'd go completely broke. All the other factions laugh at you until you suddenly come and burn them to the ground.

[schild]

This is no reason for this game to be 1/10th as complex as it is. If you present me with a game setup screen that requires a CPA to navigate, there's a problem.

Why can't fucking neckbeards enjoy things that are streamlined. Jesus fuck.

[koro]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, the Broken Lords get a bit... broken later in the game:

[schild]

This game is complex for complexity's sake rather than to increase fun.

I would say the vast majority of systems beyond the top layer here could be removed and it would only *help* things.

[schild]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PLvdmifDSk

[Draegan]

I thought it was a pretty easy game to comprehend and learn. I see no real complexity. You playing the same game? It's not EUiV or whatever that other game is.

[koro]

Yeah, Endless Legend is pretty poorly-documented, but it's no more complex than, say, Civ or anything.

[schild]

I thought it was a pretty easy game to comprehend and learn. I see no real complexity. You playing the same game? It's not EUiV or whatever that other game is.

You're right, it's not the impenetrable shitshow that is Europa Universalis. Do you have any other absolutely pointless comparisons to make?

Yeah, Endless Legend is pretty poorly-documented, but it's no more complex than, say, Civ or anything.

Again, being no more complex than something that has become needlessly complex is not a point in its favor.

I'm sorry, I threw my Grognard hat out the window when I adopted "fun" as a requirement for playing games.

I'm going to give Endless Legend a more serious chance at being a "fun" thing despite its shortfalls, but defending this thing is pointless. It's a disaster of 5 designs shoehorned into each other and there's no defending that. There is NO reason for a lot of the minutiae in the game to exist.

[Sky]

Something something consoles.

[schild]

Something something consoles.

[Sky]

[Rendakor]

Sky, image no worky.

[Khaldun]

From the first episode of Frasier:



Frasier: Have you ever had an unexpressed thought?

Niles: I'm having one now.

[Draegan]

I think as schild gets older, he gets worse at video games. Dude, this game has absolutely zero complexity outside of how different races play. It's a standard 4X game.

[Khaldun]

I think I get what he means--there's something about the presentation that's a bit "hmm, what is that?" at first--I forget what they call resources but it's some dumb acronym. I also found it a bit difficult to figure out stockpiles and boosters--using them well takes a while, but they actually add some nice strategic timing. In fact, what complexity there is largely helps to make the game more interesting in any given turn--I don't find that it has that "hit next turn and wait and wait and wait" thing that some 4X have except maybe for when you're doing your faction quest and there's some resource gate for the next stage and you decide that you're going to focus on advancing that over everything else.

But it's not complicated, not really. The gameplay is totally 4X in the most familiar way, and the wrinkles on the formula are mostly minor wrinkles.

[rk47]

Still doesn't grab me after 60+ turns.
AI being rather robotic personality, and seeing all these villages giving +5% bonuses after I gifted a village of undead some dyes made me shrug and wonder if I should even take the lore seriously.
The game setting tried to be some kind of fantasy but ended up being just a skin with stat bonuses and penalties of some kind. The lore didn't matter. Not one bit.
I kinda miss Fall from Heaven flavors quest/alignment system (shit that mod was so good) and was hoping this game would give me more of the same feel, so far it hasn't. The whole resource gathering bored me.
I walk around and whack trash mobs, raze down a trash village cause I can't be bothered to find resource X. Oh here's another ruin. Click. Some dust. Move on. Assign new production.
How about new tech. Here we go. Oh this is nice. AI gives pitying diplomacy 'We're so happy that you're so pitiful while we're so great.'
Wham wham wham. Took one city off them and they're ready for cease fire.
I'm not sure why the combat is even designed to disable micro-ing and forces you to issue a general order. Is it because the AI would be exploited to death?

[schild]

I think I get what he means--there's something about the presentation that's a bit "hmm, what is that?" at first--I forget what they call resources but it's some dumb acronym. I also found it a bit difficult to figure out stockpiles and boosters--using them well takes a while, but they actually add some nice strategic timing. In fact, what complexity there is largely helps to make the game more interesting in any given turn--I don't find that it has that "hit next turn and wait and wait and wait" thing that some 4X have except maybe for when you're doing your faction quest and there's some resource gate for the next stage and you decide that you're going to focus on advancing that over everything else.

But it's not complicated, not really. The gameplay is totally 4X in the most familiar way, and the wrinkles on the formula are mostly minor wrinkles.

Boosters are a goddamn footnote in the tutorial. I'm just sayin, half of these systems could be stripped down and thrown out the window whereas the other half could be made more robust at no cost to complexity and it would be a vastly superior game. I did a rough count, and this game has I think, Infinite Resources. Fucking really.

[Yegolev]

I get it on both sides, not that I've played this game yet because I need to finish more than one game in Civ since 2001.  When I was younger I was in love with complex game systems, but now I mostly just want to shoot things because I have to figure out arbitrary systems in Real Life.  It's probably very fun for some people to play with the game mechanics, but other people don't have time for that.

Just wait until you have a kid or three and you won't play any game more complicated than a lightswitch.

[Typhon]

I didn't find the complexity especially confusing (except for the robots, they took a bit to figure what the fuck), but I didn't find it engaging or fun.  I thought they had the makings of some interesting systems, but the designers needed more time to make them all cohesive.  ... essentially I'm just saying the same thing rk47 said.  I played 6 or 7 games a varying amount through, "won" most of them and stopped playing.

Not as disappointing as BE, but still disappointing.

[Phildo]

Some of the decisions seem to be consistent with their other games, such as the FIDS (resource) system and the non-micro combat.  The combat, in particular, is one of the things that I hated about Endless Space but it seems like it's part of their design philosophy.  That said, I do like it better in this context.

I started a game as the Broken Lords, but I get the feeling that they're a pain in the ass with a larger empire.  Is there a way to automate population expansion?  It would be nice if you could budget x% of your income towards that each turn.

[schild]

I didn't find the complexity especially confusing (except for the robots, they took a bit to figure what the fuck), but I didn't find it engaging or fun.  I thought they had the makings of some interesting systems, but the designers needed more time to make them all cohesive.

This is the problem. If any measure of complexity doesn't add to the "fun," all it does is hurt a game.

[Kitsune]

I'm having a good time with this so far.  Anyone complaining about unfun complexity has clearly managed to forget MoO3, and yes I'm bitter enough to want to remind others about it so they can suffer as I suffered.  If I have to remember MoO3, everyone has to remember MoO3. 

I've also been playing SMAC recently, and I have to say Alpha Centauri is more complex than this.  Most of the game mechanics are straightforward Civ-style mechanics.  Select things to research, select things to build, click army, click destination, click next turn button.  The only things that step away from basic Civ gameplay are customizing your troops (which is done in a way that's much less cumbersome the Alpha Centauri's troop customizing), handling heroes (which is a step up in complexity but worth it for being able to custom-build your city governor or general), and dealing with the minor factions, which isn't at all difficult to get my head around.

[Typhon]

[snip]If I have to remember MoO3, everyone has to remember MoO3. 
[snip]

bad man!

[rk47]

There's MOO3? 

[Lantyssa]

I'm having a good time with this so far.  Anyone complaining about unfun complexity has clearly managed to forget MoO3, and yes I'm bitter enough to want to remind others about it so they can suffer as I suffered.  If I have to remember MoO3, everyone has to remember MoO3.

Eff you, man!  MoO3 was the start of my gaming cynicism.

[Thrawn]

Uninstalling this already.  I didn't hate it, but it also didn't really scratch any itch that Civ V/IV/FFH doesn't already scratch.  Nothing about the game felt new or interesting enough to get me addicted to it at all.

[Sky]

I'm pretty much with Thrawn, though I need to give it a bit longer game to feel it out. But I had the same initial reaction with Kael's Stardock stuff, I kept thinking "Why not just play FFH2?" Between that for depth and Civ V for modern interface, I'm good. Of course, if Firaxis would just hire Kael to make a new FFH in the Civ V engine (or in the Civ VI engine...), we could all be happy.

[Ragnoros]

Having played Civ5 for 247 hours, I can say this will not get more than a dozen from me.

It is indeed needlessly complex as schild says. Systems stacked on systems. Also, the whole death stack of army is annoying. Upgrading your guys is not interesting enough to be fun, but takes long enough to be annoying. The turn based battle thing is way less interesting then Civ5's simple move and attack board game style. Flavor is tacked on.

Yeah. What people said.

[Maledict]

I'm pretty much with Thrawn, though I need to give it a bit longer game to feel it out. But I had the same initial reaction with Kael's Stardock stuff, I kept thinking "Why not just play FFH2?" Between that for depth and Civ V for modern interface, I'm good. Of course, if Firaxis would just hire Kael to make a new FFH in the Civ V engine (or in the Civ VI engine...), we could all be happy.

to be fair, his stardock stuff is junk for the basic reason that Elemental was flawed from the start and no amount of paint and tweaking is going to correct the unmitigated shitstain that is the basic game.

[Teleku]

I'm pretty much with Thrawn, though I need to give it a bit longer game to feel it out. But I had the same initial reaction with Kael's Stardock stuff, I kept thinking "Why not just play FFH2?" Between that for depth and Civ V for modern interface, I'm good. Of course, if Firaxis would just hire Kael to make a new FFH in the Civ V engine (or in the Civ VI engine...), we could all be happy.

Preferably Civ 5 engine.  I really have a hard time going back to the older civ games now that I'm use to the advances of 5.  No death stacks and every unit being able swim just helps it sooooo God damn much, even if I wish they would bring back a little more of the depth some of the older ones had.

I'm having a hard time getting into this game as well, but haven't given it much time yet.

[Khaldun]

I get the point about how Civ V gets rid of the death stack, but in a funny sort of way, I kind of enjoy playing a 4X where that's going on. It's almost nostalgic. But yeah, it does pretty much mean game over if your death stack meets an AI death stack and loses. It's simplistic compared to the way Civ V approaches military power.

I also get tired of how the AI spams settlers for certain factions (Wind Walkers most notably) and actually uses the settlers to defend weak cities (if a settler is in an otherwise undefended city and the settler 'retreats' and survives, the city survives too, which shouldn't happen). It can sometimes keep cities alive for the two turns that it takes to get a hero-led death stack there to confront a raiding stack that should have been able to burn down the city and run.

[Sky]

I wouldn't mind a bit more of a compromise between death stack and 1 military unit per hex. And I don't like embarkation at all, I miss my transport units and the tactics and logistics they created. One of my biggest complaints about the Civ V engine.

And yeah, I don't blame Kael for his games; I don't know that anyone could make a good game at Stardock.

[Teleku]

The problem is that the Civ AI never EVER figured out those logistics.  Now, it can kind of sort of smartly attack across water (still not the best, but for once it can actually be a threat for the first time in the history of civ).  Naval invasions were beyond anything the AI could ever do effectivly in any previous version of the game.  I pretty much haven't bothered playing anything other than the Pangaea map since civ 2, just so I can get a decent game in.  I accept a little of the dumbing down there for the benefits it brings.

[Khaldun]

Speaking of this, it's one of the things the Endless Legend AI is pretty dumb about. If it's sending a couple of big stacks to fight your big stacks via water, and you make it so there's only one landing hex, it'll land its stacks one at a time and let them get ripped to shreds. It's actually kind of bad that you can't interfere with stacks when they're on water.

[Megrim]

The problem is that the Civ AI never EVER figured out those logistics.  Now, it can kind of sort of smartly attack across water (still not the best, but for once it can actually be a threat for the first time in the history of civ).  Navel invasions were beyond anything the AI could ever do effectivly in any previous version of the game.  I pretty much haven't bothered playing anything other than the Pangaea map since civ 2, just so I can get a decent game in.  I accept a little of the dumbing down there for the benefits it brings.

I too, am concerned, when the AI attempts to invade my navel.