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Author Topic: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!  (Read 16196 times)
Zetor
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Reply #210 on: December 07, 2014, 11:06:14 PM

Where does one go to read up?  I used to go to Elitist Jerks, but by the end of Lich King, it was all about programming spread sheets to parse max theoretical output.  Practical advice on rotations and gearing was hard to find over there.

But I haven't looked over there since before Cata launched.
Icy Veins' guides are pretty decent: http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/class-guides

Jeff Kelly
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Reply #211 on: December 08, 2014, 02:11:38 AM

Do I have to collect every work order before another one starts? I started 14 WO of timber last evening and it seems as if only one of them was finished this morning.
Ironwood
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Reply #212 on: December 08, 2014, 02:24:47 AM

No.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #213 on: December 08, 2014, 03:59:53 AM

How long do they take then? I queued up 14 work orders of timber before I went to bed last night and when I checked this morning only one of them was finished. (GUI stated that 1/14 work orders were available after I collected)

I had this issue a lot the last few days where I was questing for a few hours and when I went back to my garrison I got the amount of resources one work order would produce even though multiple WO's were queed up. E.g. I went away for the weekend with 14/14 orders queued up and when I came back on Sunday I got 20 resources, the golden timer symbol reappeared and the majority of work orders had'nt completed yet.

I'm currently miles away from upgrading buildings (especially the Garrison Level 3 upgrade) because of that and I started to think it was intended to be that way.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #214 on: December 08, 2014, 04:14:54 AM

Merusk, thanks for the tips.

The bronze PG quest for damage was literally just:

Phase 1: This is a guy, kill him before the timer runs out
Phase 2: These are two guys with a special, kill them before the timer runs out but keep their specials in mind.
Phase 3: These guys have fewer hitpoints but there are a lot of them. Kill them with your AoE abilities before the timer runs out.
Phase 4: There are guys with specials and creatures you have to AoE. Kill them before the timer runs out.

So I used Rushing Jade Wind (I took that talent at 90), Chi explosion and my other AoE abilities in Phase 3 and 4 and the timer ran out every time before I could kill all of them. So I figured that I'm probably too low to do any of them yet. Because either I'm THAT stupid then I should probably not be doing instances anyway or my average gear iLvl is still too low because the tasks required from you for bronze aren't exactly rocket science.

Then I did the tank and healer bronzes in my Windwalker spec and DPS gear and finished them first try.

That's why I was commenting on PG in the first place. The monk has AoE abilities but is more of a single target DPS class though so requiring you to AoE multiple waves of enemies on a timer seems to be something you'd probably use a mage for.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #215 on: December 08, 2014, 04:16:21 AM

Touch of Death is literally the "I win" button for monks
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #216 on: December 08, 2014, 04:50:39 AM

Never mind I googled how work orders work and got the info. It would have been nice though if the game would give me that info and not a third party site on the net

So according to the internet.

- A work order takes 4 hours to complete.
- Level 1 buildings can queue up to 7, level 2 up to 14 and level 3 up to 21
- assigning a follower to a building has the chance to increase yield

A store house extends the queue.

So my 14 item queue is about 2 days of work orders. 10 timber yield 20 garrison resources so I'd have to complete 100 lumber mill work orders to get the 2000 resources I'd need for the garrison level 3 upgrade or 17 days worth of work.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #217 on: December 08, 2014, 05:03:25 AM

Sorry for the spam.

This makes profession buildings for the professions you have pretty much useless after you got the recipes they offer. 1 work order of the alchemy hut takes 5 frostweed and converts them into 1 alchemical catalyst for example. This process takes 4 hours to complete. The alchemy recipe for the same alchemical catalyst takes 20 frostweed and 10 black iron ore, so it is more efficient to take the output of the mine and the herb garden and directly convert it than to use the alchemy lab. This also means that if you want to raid then an alt with the gathering professions is pretty much still a requirement because farming stuff is orders of magnitude more time efficient than garrison work orders.

Should have done the math earlier but this makes the garrison far less meaningful than I thought it would be.

[edit] You also only get level 3 blueprints once you've completed certain Draenor-related achievements. Fishing hut for example requires "Draeonor Angler", Store House requires "got my mind on the Draeonr money" etc.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 05:10:16 AM by Jeff Kelly »
Ironwood
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Reply #218 on: December 08, 2014, 07:39:46 AM

As you use more of them, you realize that the rookie mistake of building profession huts for professions that you have is just that ; A mistake.

Also, bear in mind during all that time, you're getting GR queued up at your GR dump.  So it doesn't take as long as you think.

I suspect for 'end times' the Garrison is going to end up being a standard build.

War Mill.
Store Room.
Barn.
Tavern.

I mean, really, all the others are just frippery, but the Seals, the bank access, the bloods and the quests/followers are probably what you're wanting.

If you're raiding, you're going to get better than any of the Prof huts can make eventually.  Also, other stuff can go hang.  Sure, a stables would be nice until you get the mounts, then what ? 

The Garrison would be much, much better if it was account wide and could have more spaces to eventually get the lot.

As it is, it's a distraction from how little this expansion brings to the table.  IMO.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #219 on: December 08, 2014, 08:24:18 AM

Even just a week ago I was making fun of the official forum-ites while talking to a friend because they were complaining about lack of content (as they always do). I more and more come to the same realization though. I'm only a casual player but I've now finished all of the quests and optional objectives (even the group quests) in all of the zones except Nagrand and Nagrand will be completed by the end of the week probably.

So even I as a casual player will have exhausted all of the content except raids and dungeons a month after release. The garrison won't compensate that and since I have absolutely no interest to rejoin the grind for raiding I'll probably cancel my sub once I've seen all of the single player content.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #220 on: December 08, 2014, 08:30:08 AM

I just realized, that that is not even true.

It took me a month to level a char from 1 to 100 and exhaust all of the single player content of the new expansion.
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Reply #221 on: December 08, 2014, 08:42:32 AM

You don't fancy Molten Core ?  It's all new and wildly different ?

...

 Ohhhhh, I see. swamp poop why so serious? why so serious? why so serious?

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Zetor
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Reply #222 on: December 08, 2014, 08:51:49 AM

A few notes about that mega-multipost:
  • lumber mill and trading post work orders are just to get extra resources if you need them 'now'. Honestly they aren't that worth it. Taking lumber mill to level 3 is fine to get the two followers and their associated quests, then scrap it. If you need resources, hunt down 'rare' enemies and treasure items (there are maps in your faction capital @ ashran, but you can also use a mod to display them for you). Or better yet, get follower(s) with the scavenger trait via the inn, and send them on the 1-2 resource missions that come up every day. I think I got a payout of 300-400 resources once... and 120 is pretty standard.
  • Profession buildings are only worth it if they're level 2+ and you have someone assigned to them. Then they basically double/triple (?) your output of the cooldown-gated resource of that profession. You can upgrade crafted gear to keep track with raid gear, but the investments are insane (and all seem to require savage blood). tldr: professions are a clusterfuck, don't bother.
  • Workshop and gladiator's wotsit are fine on your pvp character, because the stuff they have is really useful for world pvp and ashran. Too bad ashran and world pvp both suck.
  • War mill / bunker is an absolute must, and I have no idea why everyone gets a barracks (which is almost useless) to start with. Salvage yard is also a must if you want to keep playing the follower game at 100.
  • fwiw, in my guild we only have 3 people at 100 out of the 8 that reactivated for the xpac. Most of them are around level 93-94. It takes ~20 hours to get from 90 to 100, that's not really any less than the leveling speed of the previous expansions... and let's be honest, the leveling content is the strongest in WOD by far. If that's "lack of content" then fine, it's still better than mop and cata were, at least.
  • Soloing at max-level... sucks, even though I consider the 'daily quest areas' a massive improvement (get a group using Blizz's own group finder tool, they're done in 10-15 mins including travel time). I find the dungeons a lot better than MOP and Cata, and stuff like brawler's guild / PG / challenge modes offers a lot more to non-raiders than any previous expansion.

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Reply #223 on: December 08, 2014, 08:55:28 AM

A few notes about that mega-multipost:

For someone that came back to WoW for the xpack and is a bit overwhelmed... thank you for this.  I'm about to hit 100 and am baffled by what I should be doing with my garrison.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

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Reply #224 on: December 08, 2014, 09:11:32 AM

You don't fancy Molten Core ?  It's all new and wildly different ?

...

 Ohhhhh, I see. swamp poop why so serious? why so serious? why so serious?

I've played it before it was hot so thank you but no thanks  why so serious?
Ironwood
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Reply #225 on: December 08, 2014, 09:21:28 AM

Oh Yeah, Salvage yard.

Yes.  Salvage Yard is awesome.  However, I hear they're going to be nerfing it a little, so, who knows.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Ironwood
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Reply #226 on: December 08, 2014, 09:22:01 AM

You don't fancy Molten Core ?  It's all new and wildly different ?

...

 Ohhhhh, I see. swamp poop why so serious? why so serious? why so serious?

I've played it before it was hot so thank you but no thanks  why so serious?

I'm not sure if I should put that'sthejoke.jpg in here or you just wanted to Pun Away.


"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #227 on: December 08, 2014, 09:25:38 AM

I compare it to Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King, especially Lich King. I skipped both Cata and MoP so I can't really tell how long they'd have lasted. 20 hours by itself might not be that bad but this is an MMO and Blizzard hopes that most of the recurring players will stick around for at least a year or until the new expansion hits so if even a casual players has seen everything after 20 hours then I'd not consider that great.

As for the Garrison. If I had known that I would hit 100 much sooner than my followers and that I needed to be 100 to get access to Level 3 - in fact if I had known what you just told me - then I would have designed my garrison differently. Or I probably wouldn't have bothered at all more likely. Barracks sounds nice for the bodyguard until you realize you don't need them. Profession buildings sound nice because they sound like they would help your profession which they don't (also 5 flasks per day are nothing to write home about for a Level 3 lab).

So the most useful buildings are actually the "perk-only" buldings like the barn, the store house, mage tower or war mill which is a tad disappointing to say the least. There's also not really a point in upgrading your Garrison to level 3 then.

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Reply #228 on: December 08, 2014, 09:26:35 AM

If this expansion's time of delivery is any indication, this one will have to stand up until Christmas 2016.

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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #229 on: December 08, 2014, 09:28:52 AM

Good luck with that.
Zetor
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Reply #230 on: December 08, 2014, 09:33:09 AM

I compare it to Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King, especially Lich King. I skipped both Cata and MoP so I can't really tell how long they'd have lasted. 20 hours by itself might not be that bad but this is an MMO and Blizzard hopes that most of the recurring players will stick around for at least a year or until the new expansion hits so if even a casual players has seen everything after 20 hours then I'd not consider that great.
Well, that's what I meant. My guild is full of casual players (as in, a few hours a week, maybe 4 hours on the weekend). They're still 93-94, and not because they read every line of quest text.

1-100 in a month is... not what I'd call casual, but ymmv. Also, you really haven't exhausted the solo content until you got Endless 30 in Proving Grounds and Rank 10 in the Brawler's Guild (both solo activities), and neither of those require raid gear (in fact, the PG scales with your gear). Though, based on your posts about PG, this is probably not what you had in mind. :P

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Reply #231 on: December 08, 2014, 09:59:14 AM

I consider proving grounds to be just another type of grind, especially since you need it to unlock difficulty levels.
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Reply #232 on: December 08, 2014, 10:01:59 AM

Getting Silver in any Proving ground is so trivial, I don't know why they bothered putting it in.

Gold Healing for anyone but a druid is actually hard tho.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #233 on: December 08, 2014, 10:25:29 AM

Casual in my definition is two or three evenings per week, which was more than enough to hit 100. Although to be fair I spent a whole weekend as well because everyone was outand I had the place all to myself.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #234 on: December 08, 2014, 11:40:37 AM

I compare it to Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King, especially Lich King. I skipped both Cata and MoP so I can't really tell how long they'd have lasted. 20 hours by itself might not be that bad but this is an MMO and Blizzard hopes that most of the recurring players will stick around for at least a year or until the new expansion hits so if even a casual players has seen everything after 20 hours then I'd not consider that great.

As for the Garrison. If I had known that I would hit 100 much sooner than my followers and that I needed to be 100 to get access to Level 3 - in fact if I had known what you just told me - then I would have designed my garrison differently. Or I probably wouldn't have bothered at all more likely. Barracks sounds nice for the bodyguard until you realize you don't need them. Profession buildings sound nice because they sound like they would help your profession which they don't (also 5 flasks per day are nothing to write home about for a Level 3 lab).

So the most useful buildings are actually the "perk-only" buldings like the barn, the store house, mage tower or war mill which is a tad disappointing to say the least. There's also not really a point in upgrading your Garrison to level 3 then.



Having 25 followers from a level 3 barracks is very useful for having the right combination for missions as well as having a handful working in your other buildings.  Missions are an excellent way to get really good gear once your followers are max and it's hard to get 100% on missions when your pool of followers is sub 20.  Also I don't know about you but having a bodyguard allows me to solo a lot of content that would be a pain in the ass or even impossible, such as the elite animals in nagrand.  The profession buildings certainly aren't necessary but they save time and besides a bank.salvage yard you're always left with room for one profession building so why not. 

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Reply #235 on: December 08, 2014, 11:45:36 AM

Aside from raiding 2 nights a week, I'm only logging in once a day to do garrison stuff, profession cooldowns, and Inn dungeon quests if a new one pops up. It feels like I exhausted most of the solo content in the expansion, but WoD still had tons more stuff to do for a solo character than any expansion in the past. More importantly, I actually enjoyed doing most of it. The leveling stuff didn't outlast its welcome and I enjoyed hunting down treasure, rare mobs, and garrison stuff way more than I enjoyed dailies in MoP.

This expansion feels very alt-friendly as well. It doesn't take long to level up, you get to do different configurations for their Garrisons, the classes are simpler to play than they have been in the past, etc. If you want to check out everything Garrisons have to offer, it's better to do it through alts than by constantly destroying and rebuilding stuff. Finally, all the profession/garrison progress they make can feed back to your main pretty easily.

I'm still really happy with the expansion, even if I'm not logging in too much at this point. I'm looking forward to them unlocking Tanaan Jungle and more garrison stuff through patches.
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Reply #236 on: December 08, 2014, 12:07:41 PM

I'm not sure if I should put that'sthejoke.jpg in here or you just wanted to Pun Away.

The puns, baby  cool. When you have to ask, it was probably a pretty poor one though.

If you think about it is quite sad. Ten years of WoW. Ten years of the most successful MMORPG yet and probably ever, ten years of Green Jesus, money hats and internet whining.

And all they could come up with is a rehash of an old raid instance most people will probably never see and a a reskin of a pet. They were even too lazy to not give a fuck about the festivities and chose to half-ass something together and called that "celebration"
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Reply #237 on: December 08, 2014, 12:54:32 PM

They re-tuned the most iconic raid from Vanilla for level 100 and made it so anyone could easily see it via LFR. The raid also gives a Corehound mount and the chance for another pet or cosmetic weapon effect. There's also the Tarren Mill PVP stuff.

It's much more than I was expecting, honestly. My guild did the MC LFR as a group with ~30 of us, and the whole time people were waxing nostalgic about the old raid/vanilla days. It was pretty neat as a trip down memory lane, and a good reminder of how far the raid content in the game has come.
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Reply #238 on: December 08, 2014, 01:00:41 PM

I did an LFR MC just now to get a fancy hat.  After about 3 hours of that foolishness I unsubbed. 

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Reply #239 on: December 08, 2014, 01:24:22 PM

A few notes about that mega-multipost:
  • lumber mill and trading post work orders are just to get extra resources if you need them 'now'. Honestly they aren't that worth it. Taking lumber mill to level 3 is fine to get the two followers and their associated quests, then scrap it. If you need resources, hunt down 'rare' enemies and treasure items (there are maps in your faction capital @ ashran, but you can also use a mod to display them for you). Or better yet, get follower(s) with the scavenger trait via the inn, and send them on the 1-2 resource missions that come up every day. I think I got a payout of 300-400 resources once... and 120 is pretty standard.
  • Profession buildings are only worth it if they're level 2+ and you have someone assigned to them. Then they basically double/triple (?) your output of the cooldown-gated resource of that profession. You can upgrade crafted gear to keep track with raid gear, but the investments are insane (and all seem to require savage blood). tldr: professions are a clusterfuck, don't bother.
  • Workshop and gladiator's wotsit are fine on your pvp character, because the stuff they have is really useful for world pvp and ashran. Too bad ashran and world pvp both suck.
  • War mill / bunker is an absolute must, and I have no idea why everyone gets a barracks (which is almost useless) to start with. Salvage yard is also a must if you want to keep playing the follower game at 100.
  • fwiw, in my guild we only have 3 people at 100 out of the 8 that reactivated for the xpac. Most of them are around level 93-94. It takes ~20 hours to get from 90 to 100, that's not really any less than the leveling speed of the previous expansions... and let's be honest, the leveling content is the strongest in WOD by far. If that's "lack of content" then fine, it's still better than mop and cata were, at least.
  • Soloing at max-level... sucks, even though I consider the 'daily quest areas' a massive improvement (get a group using Blizz's own group finder tool, they're done in 10-15 mins including travel time). I find the dungeons a lot better than MOP and Cata, and stuff like brawler's guild / PG / challenge modes offers a lot more to non-raiders than any previous expansion.


One side note about the profession clusterfuck issue. If you are using them as a bridge to raid content or upgrades for alts this expansion is actually pretty good crafting wise. My level 92 alt already has three pieces of 630-640 gear one of which is their weapon. This makes leveling up really easy and makes it so you can pretty much skip normal dungeons and go right into heroic dungeons for the couple pieces needed to get you to LFR level.

Also going forward over time the more time elapses the better this boost will likely become. Materially they are cheap and painless to crank out for alts as the main component needed is simply time. This is not very different than how tradeskills normally worked in the past. Tradeskills rarely were that useful for your first character as it was always hard to impossible to not be outleveling their usefulness. This expansion I had three purple pieces on my main right in time for the first raid opening up. So while the new crafting system is awkward and feels a bit detatched its as useful as it ever was and probably a bit more. Everything I am making is being used by somebody I have not had to make anything simply for the act of making it yet.
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Reply #240 on: December 08, 2014, 01:48:44 PM

At this moment most normal players won't even have hit Level 100 let alone the iLvl 615 equip necessary to queue for it. The raid will be open for the 10th anniversary celebrations which run from November 20th to January 6th.

Even if they hit the requirements over the following weeks by the time the majority would be able to experience it the event will be nearly over and you'd be needing luck to find 40 players and even more to find 40 players actually capable of clearing it. Even if it is great I wouldn't necessarily design content that excludes a whole lot of players to celebrate an anniversary everyone should enjoy and which should also be a thank you to all of the 10 million players still sticking around.

Even worse when the content only has nostalgic value for a few of those players because most of them weren't around for MC.

Also everyone that seriously thinks Vanilla WoW were the times should be forced to run the updated MC with the Patch 1.1 Classic UI and all of the original mechanics still in place including the attunement quest chain and the orginal boss and spawn timers. Hell let them walk to the instance through Blackrock Depths
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Reply #241 on: December 08, 2014, 02:05:01 PM

At this moment most normal players won't even have hit Level 100 let alone the iLvl 615 equip necessary to queue for it. The raid will be open for the 10th anniversary celebrations which run from November 20th to January 6th.

They gave people two months to get to level 100 in what is probably the fastest expansion leveling content they have ever done. The 615 ilvl requirement is very easy to get. Finishing Nagrand, doing a handful of regular dungeons, and getting the first Legendary Ring quest ring (only requires a Normal dungeon) will get you to 615. The barrier to entry on MC LFR is very very low. Because the mount and pet are account wide there isn't even an incentive to do it on one than more character.

Even if they hit the requirements over the following weeks by the time the majority would be able to experience it the event will be nearly over and you'd be needing luck to find 40 players and even more to find 40 players actually capable of clearing it. Even if it is great I wouldn't necessarily design content that excludes a whole lot of players to celebrate an anniversary everyone should enjoy and which should also be a thank you to all of the 10 million players still sticking around.

This isn't how LFR works. The game matches you with other people to fill the group. You can queue for it solo if you want.
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Reply #242 on: December 08, 2014, 02:17:31 PM

I know how LFR works, my entire point revolves around it. You can queue until you're blue in the face if no-one except you is queueing. Good luck actually getting 40 people to queue up for MC three weeks from now and even if you manage to do that, the 40 randoms still need to down Ragnaros to get the mount.

So you'll end up working on content all of the hardcore players are already done with with a bunch of randoms that just turned 100. In MC where a few people actually have to know what they are doing because of MCs mechanics and the fact that voice chat actually was mandatory in MC during classic because of the coordination required

So Blizzard chooses to celebrate 10 years of WoW by giving the hardcore players a few nice perks like a new mount and the majority of its player base the bad random heroic dungeon experience from hell only with 40 idiots instead of 5. Instead of maybe thinking up something everyone could enjoy. On second thought that sums up WoW quite nicely in a way  why so serious?
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Reply #243 on: December 08, 2014, 11:34:16 PM

I did an LFR MC just now to get a fancy hat.  After about 3 hours of that foolishness I unsubbed. 

2 Hours and I had my fancy hat and mount. Shazz was the only pain

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Reply #244 on: December 08, 2014, 11:45:57 PM

At this moment most normal players won't even have hit Level 100 let alone the iLvl 615 equip necessary to queue for it.

Huh? I have my Warrior and Hunter at 100 and all 11 toons in garrisons just sitting and accumulating resources for when they level up so I don't stall on garrison resources. Both characters hit 100 before I got to Nagrand and I'm a casual player who might play for 2 hours a night but not every night. Both characters still had rested XP when they capped and I didn't start leveling until after the server issues died down. The hunter is at 616 and the warrior at 614 largely from the Warrior JCing a ring for the hunter, and the hunter making an engineering helm and then buying a gun because I was swimming in gold.

This had to be one of the fastest levelling expansions I've experienced and I didn't run dungeons until I capped as I was having fun clearing zones of quests.

"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
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