Babylon 5

[Merusk]

No, they were definitely planet of the hats for the most part but so were Humans if you look at the crew objectively.  I said that they were central characters with their own motivations vs. "oh here's a pet alien raised by humans so we understand/ can relate better." They also weren't the human in a rubber suit that would be forgotten in a week (planet of hats) though several of the non-central aliens were like this. (The sash war in particular comes to mind)

They weren't as alien as they could be now, but they were enough for the mid 90s. Certainly moreso than Worf or Spock.

[HaemishM]

I don't even know that the Londo/G'Kar arc was all that incredible or that it's just how great the actors were in the parts.

It's both. There is some good writing in those arcs, some very tragic, Shakespearean characters who get caught up in a lot of different movements. Lesser actors would have fucked up some of that stuff. Those guys were able to transcend the cheesy as well as nail the great parts that all actors crave.

[Khaldun]

I'm not sure there's ever been a genuine alien-alien in TV or movies, in terms of motivation or psychology. There's not even that many in literary SF, because it's a crazy-hard thing to do right. Vorlons-Shadows turning out to be a 12-year old's version of a Michael Moorcock novel was disappointing; frankly he should have stuck with LoTR and just made them good and evil, or brought in Vinge as a consultant and used his Fire Upon the Deep stuff outright. But I'm not sure I actually hoped that they would turn out to be genuinely alien because that's so tough both in terms of visuals and writing.

[Numtini]

The Horta.

[Khaldun]

Good example. That works pretty well. Though still pretty standard motivations (protect young).

Would love to see something that really honestly is saying 2 + 2 = flowers or something of that sort. But it's really hard to do week in and week out in a show without eventually saying "Klingons are like humans but..."

[Surlyboi]

B5 is cheese at its highest. But there were some true bits of amazing there. Anything with Kosh and the Talia turn were absolutely worth the price of admission.

[Johny Cee]

No, they were definitely planet of the hats for the most part but so were Humans if you look at the crew objectively.  I said that they were central characters with their own motivations vs. "oh here's a pet alien raised by humans so we understand/ can relate better." They also weren't the human in a rubber suit that would be forgotten in a week (planet of hats) though several of the non-central aliens were like this. (The sash war in particular comes to mind)

They weren't as alien as they could be now, but they were enough for the mid 90s. Certainly moreso than Worf or Spock.

We'd have to check dates to be sure, but the bulk of the alien races in B5 were exactly as fleshed out as on TNG.  TNG gave us a few Klingon arcs at that point, including the "Worf leaves Starfleet to fight in the Klingon Civil War" arc that solidified Klingons as wearing the "Space Vikings" hat.

I'll give B5 2 points for the early portrayals of the Vorlons/Shadows as actually "alien".  We didn't understand their motivations, and they did shit that the characters couldn't really fathom.  Remove 1 point for the resolution as Khaldun said, as basically they were misbehaving kids with Daddy issues that Daddy called to the carpet.

The Horta.

Thank you!  I really liked that episode.

[Sir T]

JMS has several ideas that he pitched around, but the thing is once he had the green light for one series he planed out the one series like an arc. The fact that he might have had other ideas that found their way into the bin does not change the fact that B5 was planned once pre-prodution started a as a 5 year arc. Things change before production and ideas get tossed or changed all the time. Its called Art through adversity. Google it.

[Johny Cee]

JMS has several ideas that he pitched around, but the thing is once he had the green light for one series he planed out the one series like an arc. The fact that he might have had other ideas that found their way into the bin does not change the fact that B5 was planned once pre-prodution started a as a 5 year arc. Things change before production and ideas get tossed or changed all the time. Its called Art through adversity. Google it.

1.  That hasn't been JMS' line at times.
2.  He had to redo everything because Sinclair left after Season 1.
3.  The actress that played Talia left after Season 2? which forced them to bring back Lyta.
4.  My Google it comment was about how he contradicts himself at different times.  The 3 series yadda was the last thing I saw that he released that landed on a website.


I'd give it all a pass, but JMS regularly talked up the genius of his own work for years after it ended and gave the whole "I planned everything" response regularly.  Did he plan O'Hare having to quit do to his illness?  He planned out all those wretched Garibaldi and Franklin arcs that treaded water for significant chunks of episodes?  Do we really believe that he didn't adjust the Londo/G'Kar stories once he realized how good they were in the show?  There really wasn't any cross-pollination due to current events or the fact that DS9 was on the air at the same time covering some of the same issues?

Basically, he was kind of a douche about it for years.  I'd give him a "well done" for planning out and telling interesting Space Opera style arcs and adjusting to forced changes and improvisation if not for that fact that he was a douche about it for years.  Also, that he and the diehards have pretty much tried to rewrite history to credit his genius.

[jgsugden]

The series is well done.  JMS had a plan drawn up that - at the core - made it to film.  When they sat down to make the movie, he had a vision of the entire 5 year journey.  He has mad his original notes available and a lot of it shifted, but the core story is there. 

However, studios stuck their fingers into his plans (as always happens) and he adjusted to accommodate.  Once things were underway, he had to adjust to account for more studio meddling, actor availability, and other factors.  When, in season 4 it looked like there would be no season 5, he made some serious adjustments to the timeline of the show to make sure the core storyline was resolved - but when they ended up getting the TNT Season 5, it left a lot of time to fill and too little story for it. 

Regardless, the man had a plan and executed it to the best of his ability.  It would have been better with an unlimited budget, had his original cast not been disrupted, had the studios not forced some of the crap like the 'alien zoo' in the pilot... but he DESERVED to be proud of what he achieved.  Far from perfect, but innovative and revolutionary for American TV.  He knew it at the time, too.  His posts from the early days of B5 predict that a lot of future sci-fi will follow his path.  It did.  CGI, season storylines, series storylines, depicting alien races as more than a single cliché (races had tendencies, but each character had their own character), etc....  Some of these things had been attempted, but this was the most cohesive success we'd seen to date on American TV. 

However, the more I think about it, the more hesitant I get about a B5 movie.  You can't do B5 as a series of movies.  The core of B5 is too big for a few films.  What we get may have a look and vibe that speaks of B5, but it will be something different.

[Khaldun]

Look, I also think there are misfires that are entirely about JMS.  So it's important not to buy too much into the argument that it was always something else, someone else.

[jgsugden]

Look, I also think there are misfires that are entirely about JMS.  So it's important not to buy too much into the argument that it was always something else, someone else.

Nobody is saying that the turds left in the B5 bathroom were all from guests.  JMS was not perfect.  However, the achievement (even when you factor in the warts) was monumental.  There is no reason to piss on his achievement because it was not perfect.  The quality of his contributions was outstanding most of the time - especially when you factor in the volume he contributed in that short period. 

[UnSub]

I enjoyed "Babylon 5" for all the foreshadowing that occurred and how it looked like certain scenes were shot years in advance (and may have been, or versions were, or whatever).

I couldn't watch it again for all the bits that didn't work when the show was new, let alone after so much time has passed. For instance: whoever that main Ranger character was, who was completely wooden and couldn't fight with a staff if it mean moving his hands from a fixed position. It looked clunky then and it will be worse now.

However, a fresh look at the Babylon 5 universe could be interesting. Hopefully they get JJ Abrahms to direct it too. 

[HaemishM]

Don't you dare talk shit about my boy Marcus. I will cut a bitch.

[Pezzle]

Wait until the next patch, damage might be prevented. 

[Morat20]

Don't you dare talk shit about my boy Marcus. I will cut a bitch.

I agree. Marcus was awesome.

He'd have done just fine on Serenity, too.