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Author Topic: Healthism!!11  (Read 63585 times)
angry.bob
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Reply #35 on: June 04, 2014, 09:18:21 PM

Before entering the healthcare industry I would have shrugged and said that the woman's fitness is entirely her own business, as long as she's made aware of the consequences. I still mostly think that way, but there's so many things that start going horribly wrong and are invisible about it until it's too late. Her body is destroying itself trying to maintain as close to normal function. I don't know her but she's most likely prediabetic if not diabetic, has high blood pressure, and terrible cholesterol. If she's okay with blindness, amputations, and a shitty death from random organ failures then power to her. But I guarantee she'll be one of the seemingly endless stream of people I see who can't be bothered to change a single aspect of their bad habits even after losing a foot.

Seriously guys, doctors and other health care professionals do a crap job of explaining the consequences of this stuff. I've had high blood pressure since forever and never dealt with it. After learning in class all the horrifying stuff it causes long term I've never missed a pill and exercise when I can.

It's true that everyone dies. What's not true is that all deaths are equal when it comes to suffering. My grandfather died a month and a half ago at 87. He jogged every morning and played golf everyday as well after he retired. He was was active, alert, and able to take care of himself up to the night he died in his sleep. I'd much rather have that then a shitty decade of downhill health, operations, and assisted living starting at 65 because my body is a wreck from being neglected.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
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Reply #36 on: June 04, 2014, 11:39:42 PM

Seriously guys, doctors and other health care professionals do a crap job of explaining the consequences of this stuff. I've had high blood pressure since forever and never dealt with it. After learning in class all the horrifying stuff it causes long term I've never missed a pill and exercise when I can.

I gotta give credit to my doctor, when I went in for a long-overdue physical at age 29 just to make sure I didn't have anything seriously wrong with me, he told me in the nicest way possible that I had "early death due to fatness" written all over me and that if I was smart I'd try to drop some weight while I was still in my 20s and it was relatively easy.  I had slightly high blood pressure, slightly high cholesterol, and slightly poor liver function, all linked to being overweight, and odds were good if I didn't correct my course it'd all just get worse.

Six months and 25 pounds later he redid the labs and everything was where it was supposed to be; blood pressure normal, liver function normal, and he said he'd never seen someone cut their cholesterol so drastically without meds.  And I felt better -- less joint pain, I slept more soundly, didn't have heartburn any more, way more stamina.  Really wish somebody had told me when I was 22 and started putting that weight on that it was going to kill me, apparently that's all it took to make me stop stuffing my face.

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Maven
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Reply #37 on: June 05, 2014, 01:07:27 AM

I'm one of those people whose unhappy with his body, despite going from 240 to 165 over 5 years. That unhappiness has helped motivate change and at other times has contributed to severe depression. As a secondary *consequence* (rather than as a primary reason for motivation), my health has gotten significantly better.

Her happiness, while great, appears to be an illusion based on ignorance.
Ironwood
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Reply #38 on: June 05, 2014, 01:36:13 AM

Bob and Rk :  You kinda missed my point by grabbing the first sentence and running with it. 

I mean, that's ok and all, I don't much care, this isn't politics, but, hey, you're upsetting me.

I may cry.

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Numtini
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Reply #39 on: June 05, 2014, 06:16:29 AM

These people drive me crazy. There's a hideous tyranny about size for women, but they're equating the health effects of someone being an active athletic 12 or 14 with someone being a sedentary 22 or 24. These are not the same things. And these people are not helping with the mentality that there are only two attractive sizes 2 and 4 0 and 2.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Cyrrex
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Reply #40 on: June 05, 2014, 06:46:58 AM

I'm not sure most of us men can envision what those sizes translate to.  What, for example, does an active athletic 12 or 14 even look like?  That sounds like a pretty big person to me, but I don't honestly know.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Paelos
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Reply #41 on: June 05, 2014, 07:00:00 AM


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Sky
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Reply #42 on: June 05, 2014, 07:06:40 AM

Numtini
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Reply #43 on: June 05, 2014, 07:27:26 AM

I'm not sure most of us men can envision what those sizes translate to.  What, for example, does an active athletic 12 or 14 even look like?  That sounds like a pretty big person to me, but I don't honestly know.

This is Robin Lawley, she's size 12. That's considered to be "plus size."


If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
01101010
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Reply #44 on: June 05, 2014, 07:30:47 AM

I'm not sure most of us men can envision what those sizes translate to.  What, for example, does an active athletic 12 or 14 even look like?  That sounds like a pretty big person to me, but I don't honestly know.

This is Robin Lawley, she's size 12. That's considered to be "plus size."



She gets a +10 in my book. Of course she is not carrying a spare tire or arm wings so she is not a typical woman.

And sizes are arbitrary. Size 2 in one place is a size 4 or 6 in other places. And even then, some places just print a number size lower than what the actual measurements call for. Marketing at its finest.

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Draegan
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Reply #45 on: June 05, 2014, 08:16:40 AM

There is always a difference between being a fatty fat fat fuck and just having a different body shape. People who conflate the two are stupid.
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Reply #46 on: June 05, 2014, 08:25:54 AM

I'm not sure most of us men can envision what those sizes translate to.  What, for example, does an active athletic 12 or 14 even look like?  That sounds like a pretty big person to me, but I don't honestly know.

It's a quite average woman. Numtini shared a good picture but if you Google around there was a fairly famous photo a few years ago showing average women (rather than models) and their body size.

And even then, some places just print a number size lower than what the actual measurements call for. Marketing at its finest.

Yep, that's exactly WHY women's clothes are sizes rather than measurements. To allow them to vary while hiding the size changed.  Apparently, "Vanity sizing" has also taken hold in Mensware now and some lines don't hold true when it says "32 waist" because it's actually a 34-36

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Cyrrex
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Reply #47 on: June 05, 2014, 08:48:44 AM

Yeah, if that's an "athletic 12", then sign me the hell up.  But I suppose there are a lot of different body types that are that particular size, some of which would be deemed attractive and some less so.  Body composition means a lot more than weight or size.  I'd avoid using the word "average", however.  The "average" American body is an overweight, not terribly healthy body.  I don't think it necessarily means normal.

Anyway, being a tad overweight does not make you automatically unhealthy, though I bet most are.  Being obese is the definition of being unhealthy.  Several have already chimed in on the things it does to your body, and the extra stress it puts on your organs.  Another thing to add is that it also places a PHYSICAL stress on your organs...literally, the extra weight and stomach fat is smashing the shit out of your internal organs, especially when you lay down.  Ever wonder why really fat people snore?  Because their airways are essentially being smooshed by the extra mass.  Sore backs from simply laying in bed, because your spine cannot handle the extra stress on it.  Etc.


"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Sky
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Reply #48 on: June 05, 2014, 09:11:00 AM

Obesity scales are fucked up, though. It says I'd be 'normal weight' as a 5'11" male weighing 135lbs. I weighed 155 and was stick thin in high school. I'm slightly overweight right now, but the BMI chart says I'm a sliver away from obesity.
01101010
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Reply #49 on: June 05, 2014, 09:22:52 AM


Yep, that's exactly WHY women's clothes are sizes rather than measurements. To allow them to vary while hiding the size changed.  Apparently, "Vanity sizing" has also taken hold in Mensware now and some lines don't hold true when it says "32 waist" because it's actually a 34-36

I made that discovery last year when I bought a new pair of jeans from Old Navy. I wear a 32" waist, 31" is snug but I can get into a pair if need be. I got a pair of 32" regular jeans and they are way too loose. I grabbed a tape measure and sure enough, my waist is still 31". Measuring the waist on those jeans was 33.5". Americans are growing out but we are keeping the numbers on our clothes. Makes me nuts. And to think this has been going on with women for...ever.

As for BMI... it is bullshit without other indicators. End of story. BMI was created by a math guy with no medical background and it is used in medical research now as some gold standard, often as a single indicator which I find appalling since I work as a data manager and routinely do data pulls for docs that request this as an measure of obesity. I am shocked the medical research community uses this without even a question and when it is so easily disproved. 6'1" 220lbs is overweight according to this BMI math, but I don't think Adrian Peterson is even remotely overweight. He gains 10lbs and he is considered obese. Project this to insurance companies that are trying to drop costs by making people fit into BMI categories sight unseen - they use BMI and then bombard you with weightloss adverts and get healthy incentives without considering the person's activity and other clinical indicators. I don't know why I still find this shocking, but I do.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
angry.bob
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Reply #50 on: June 05, 2014, 09:37:20 AM

Another thing to add is that it also places a PHYSICAL stress on your organs...literally, the extra weight and stomach fat is smashing the shit out of your internal organs, especially when you lay down.  Ever wonder why really fat people snore?  Because their airways are essentially being smooshed by the extra mass.  Sore backs from simply laying in bed, because your spine cannot handle the extra stress on it.  Etc.

A really great illustration of this is in the Body Worlds exhibit, the museum thing with the plasticized corpses. They have a cross section of an "average" weight person next to an obese person.

Don't click the spoiler unless you want to see plasticized cross sections of actual human bodies. Not bloody or even gross, but some people find them disturbing.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
Sky
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Reply #51 on: June 05, 2014, 11:43:15 AM

angry.bob
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Reply #52 on: June 05, 2014, 11:51:43 AM

I'd like to think that's not the actual transcript of what they said, but I know that it is.


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Ironwood
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Reply #53 on: June 05, 2014, 12:12:30 PM

It's really hard to exercise ?

Er ?


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Paelos
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Reply #54 on: June 05, 2014, 12:13:40 PM

I wouldn't be able to function on that show without throwing things.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #55 on: June 05, 2014, 12:22:07 PM

It's really hard to exercise ?

Er ?

It is when you're super fat!

Not even kidding, unfortunately, and it is a trap that overweight people fall into like lemmings...the more out of shape you are, the more you feel like simple exercise is really, really giving you a hard workout.  Which is patently false.  Just because you are sweating more and breathing harder, it doesn't mean your body is accomplishing more.  The opposite is more likely true.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
01101010
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Reply #56 on: June 05, 2014, 12:27:24 PM

Not even kidding, unfortunately, and it is a trap that overweight people fall into like lemmings...the more out of shape you are, the more you feel like simple exercise is really, really giving you a hard workout.  Which is patently false.  Just because you are sweating more and breathing harder, it doesn't mean your body is accomplishing more.  The opposite is more likely true.

The fatter you are, the harder it is; however once you get exercise built into your routine, it becomes easier. The main thing not in that dialog is the more important part of the equation: diet. Losing weight is mostly about a change in diet and then about becoming more active.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Ingmar
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Reply #57 on: June 05, 2014, 12:28:00 PM

I suspect that what she meant was that it's really hard to motivate yourself to do it. Which it is, it took me years to find something I could actually stick with; if my only options were jogging or the gym, I'd still be out of shape.

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Sky
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Reply #58 on: June 05, 2014, 12:31:06 PM

I tried to get my ex to understand that 100 calories of ice cream is not the same as 100 calories of fruit. And for gluttony night, we should eat salmon and broccoli rather than pizza. *shrug*

As far as exercise goes, stop using elevators. Do things the hard way. I tilled my garden by hand, two neighbors offered me their motorized tillers. I haven't replaced the battery in my riding mower and I'm considering selling it, push mowing the yard as fast as possible is a nice piece of cardio.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 12:32:50 PM by Sky »
Malakili
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Reply #59 on: June 05, 2014, 12:38:06 PM

The problem with that last conversation is that it reduces the issue to an absurd degree.  Sure, the guy was answering the question that was asked.  But it was the wrong question to ask, designed to come out as "See anyone can do it!"
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Reply #60 on: June 05, 2014, 12:38:53 PM

Sky, your gluttony night sounds like bullshit, ya nerd.
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Reply #61 on: June 05, 2014, 12:53:58 PM

The problem with that last conversation is that it reduces the issue to an absurd degree.  Sure, the guy was answering the question that was asked.  But it was the wrong question to ask, designed to come out as "See anyone can do it!"

Trainers focus too much on exercise as a solution. Doctors will flat out tell you that unless you change your diet, exercise is going to make you upset when you don't get results, then you'll stop.

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Malakili
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Reply #62 on: June 05, 2014, 01:05:16 PM

The problem with that last conversation is that it reduces the issue to an absurd degree.  Sure, the guy was answering the question that was asked.  But it was the wrong question to ask, designed to come out as "See anyone can do it!"

Trainers focus too much on exercise as a solution. Doctors will flat out tell you that unless you change your diet, exercise is going to make you upset when you don't get results, then you'll stop.

Absolutely.  Changing your diet - not dieting - is a fundamentally important thing to being healthy. But that's really part of the critique of the whole thing.  There are lots of skinny people with shit diets that are in poor health.  But people don't go out of their way to ask those people if they are healthy, if they eat well, and if they need to exercise more. 

It's kind of like when people find out I'm vegan and I almost always get asked how I get enough protein.  In reality I get more protein than most of the people who ask because I care in the first place.  No one asks the average person if they are getting enough protein in their diet.

The question doesn't come out of a concern for your health, it comes out of an inherent discomfort with your choices.  It gets disguised as concern, but it's basically just a reaction to subversion of norms a lot of the time.

Sky, your gluttony night sounds like bullshit, ya nerd.

Yeah, Salmon and Broccoli is most people's go out of their way to eat healthy night.
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Reply #63 on: June 05, 2014, 01:06:21 PM


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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #64 on: June 05, 2014, 01:18:09 PM

For lust night he and the wife snuggle on the couch.

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Reply #65 on: June 05, 2014, 01:22:59 PM

The question doesn't come out of a concern for your health, it comes out of an inherent discomfort with your choices.  It gets disguised as concern, but it's basically just a reaction to subversion of norms a lot of the time.

I don't care if you're vegan. My problem usually starts when people drone on and on about it parties. I don't really have a problem with fat people. I do have a problem with fat people trying to justify their fatness as anything else but a combination of laziness, mental and emotional issues, and poor health.

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Maven
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Reply #66 on: June 05, 2014, 01:42:10 PM

I don't see a problem with that second image aside from the overweight woman coming up with a pithy statement that had nothing to do with the question being answered.

It is hard. It requires willpower and motivation. Worse, when you're that overweight, it does take a lot of time to get it off, years maybe. Thing is they don't even need to do that much to drop, say, 50 pounds. Light exercise and proper diet will take care of a significant chunk of an obese person's initial problems.

It has to be made a part of the routine though. I went from 240 to 210 pounds doing nothing but Nutrisystem and careful portioning. I understand the temptation and difficulty with self-regulation. I understand how you'll be affected by cravings if you drop the weight that someone who was that weight in the first place wouldn't have to deal with.

But that doesn't change anything about what it takes to lose weight. The problem is their state of mind, not biomechanics.
Malakili
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Reply #67 on: June 05, 2014, 02:17:02 PM


The problem is their state of mind, not biomechanics.

False Dichotomy. My problem with a lot of this sort of talk is that it is a lot like the "bootstraps" rhetoric we hear.  Just suck it up and do it. Sure it's hard, but it's an individual issue.  There are lots of social reasons obesity/being overweight is such a widespread problem.  Just boiling it down to "eat better and exercise more" is essentially a useless statement to make if you are serious about solving the problem on a systemic scale AND it makes the person who is overweight feel shittier about the situation too.
01101010
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Reply #68 on: June 05, 2014, 02:36:39 PM


It's kind of like when people find out I'm vegan and I almost always get asked how I get enough protein.  In reality I get more protein than most of the people who ask because I care in the first place.  No one asks the average person if they are getting enough protein in their diet.

The question doesn't come out of a concern for your health, it comes out of an inherent discomfort with your choices.  It gets disguised as concern, but it's basically just a reaction to subversion of norms a lot of the time.


Well at least they are aware about being vegan and are aware of the caveats to it. When my buddy went vegan back in the late 90s, I asked him about it and he gave me the skinny. I thought he was crazy, but didn't give him shit for it. I had no clue about any of it so there was little conversation.

And yeah, health topics always take that "bootstraps bitches!" tone. We can't get simple healthcare laws passed in this country without grief, what makes you think we can change diet at a societal level? Schools, sure, but what is in the grocery store? Good luck.

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Samwise
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Reply #69 on: June 05, 2014, 03:09:52 PM



 why so serious?

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