SW - Episode 7: Mary Sue wakes up but there's no coffee. RAGE.

[Surlyboi]

Cameron hasn't made a good science fantasy flick since T2. Don't get me wrong, Lucas is a hack, but let's not start blowing smoke up Cameron's ass too.

[Hawkbit]

Yeah, but that fifth Avatar movie is going to bring him back in a big way.

[lamaros]

I don't get why so many people call Lucas a hack. I don't like many of his movies(I'm not a Star Wars person like many on this site are), but he has been involved with more than one cultural touchpoint of the 20th C. There's more than just luck there, even if he did completely lose the plot later on.

[HaemishM]

I think Lucas is a bit of a "Rain Man." He does have areas of utter genius but his flaws outside of those areas are goddamn glaring. The only reason we didn't see them in full was that for the first 3 Star Wars films, he had plenty of people around him who would tell him no and had the power to make that stick, and he allowed other people with better skillsets do things he wasn't that good at, like dialogue. It was only when the movies made so much money that he was given the autonomy to do whatever the fuck he wanted that things really started to go to shit. I'd say right around the time that fuckhead wrote Ewoks into Return of the Jedi. The prequel movies were so bad because there was so much of his stink on them - he had made so much money and had so much clout, he could hire whoever he wanted and make them do what he wanted. All the behind the scenes shots of him and his cronies looking at that shitty footage from Phantom Menace and you can just see that everyone in that room is shit scared to tell him how bad what they just watched is.

[Merusk]

Someone else put it best. Lucas is a great Rules draftsman but a shitty DM.

I liked the Ewoks as a kid and still don't mind them.* They made sense IF you were enough of a fanboy to have read the shit in Magazines and Newspapers and everything else in 1983. They made more sense because of it. Too bad none of that explanation made it into the movie.

Ditto the back story for the Trade Federation etc. tons of background and world building that should have STAYED on the back end instead of becoming the focus of the movie. The political drama part doesn't work well with an action franchise. Lots of good story elements and notes in the prequels, all ruined by hack writing and way too much CGI along the way.

A better writer could have still hit the good notes without introducing the WTFness. A better director wouldn't have insisted on the same robotic delivery and lack of emotion that he's cultivated in public for 40 years. (Seriously, watch how he talks and suddenly all the bullshit makes sense. All those actors are talking like George Lucas.  )

* I should also note in reading a few Reddit threads this last week there's an equal split on Jar Jar as there is on Ewoks. Also, as Windup had pointed out there's guys in their 20s who still think the prequels 'weren't that bad.' Barney should do another line for this divide as well.

[Shannow]

Ewoks > Jar Jar. Every. single. fucking. day.

[HaemishM]

I actually didn't mind Jar Jar that much. Yes, he was fuckstupid, but he didn't engender a homicidal rage in my like in other nerds.

Ewoks were just fucking dumb kid toy pandering.

[Ghambit]

Yah, I kinda looked at the Ewoks like I looked at the Hobbit.  Little people you don't take for granted.  Didn't hate them, but they weren't written or portrayed correctly either.

I will say that the new SW looks a lot like Epi. 4, which is awesome, but obviously not genius, somewhat of a re-tread, and obviously will suck if it goes all DisneyInsurgentTwilightGames on us, as Lucas essentially did with the franchise by RotJ onward.  It does glaringly look like dirtfarmer become hero.  Complete with purdy heroine, mentor, and a dark and growing ebil.  

Technically, Abrams was handed the keys to a shiny custom Ferrari that was already perfect (the old-style, old theme, even the old characters).  If he fucks it up, it will be a way bigger blunder than Epis 1-3.  He somewhat pulled it off with the new Trek, but it still came out worse than a few of its predecessors.  I'd bet that will minimally be the case here, if we're lucky.

edit: JarJar?  Fuckstupid.  But, the Gungans?  I thought they were a pretty cool concept... but again, portrayed wrong.

[01101010]

RotJ was the first time I sat in a movie and thought, 'yeah, no... no fucking way - that is not even remotely believable.' - in reference to the Ewoks defeating the stormtroopers... with sticks and rocks. It hurt to watch that. I get it, the rebels had to win...but watching the teddy bears overcome stormtroopers in such a fashion just never sat well with me and still doesn't. Maybe it had everything to do with my age and being able to grasp the cold reality of it.

The prequels followed that line, but at least were a little more believable - I mean at least the gungans had weapons that could inflict damage. As for Jar-Jar... no. He was an unnecessary character that was there to provide nothing more than absurd stupid antics all the way thru.

[Ghambit]

Epi 3 was better than RotJ.  The shear tragedy of it and the final battle scene were enough for that.
I'm not sure if that scene was better than Luke vs. Vader in ESB though.  Tough call.  The latter was just a better piece of moviemaking and writing, the former was a better action piece.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It's times like this when I wonder if people are joking.  You really think the final fight scene in ep3 was good? "I have the high ground!" and all the twirling bullshit?

The ONLY reason the fight in ep3 had any gravitas at all was the vader baggage people brought with them because of the original trilogy.  After EP1,2 no one gave two shits about anakin because he was an unlikable douche from the age of 5 and nothing he did made people empathize with him.

[Ghambit]

So which sabre battle was the best in the SW series then??  Nevermind the overarching story.  In reality, the overall choreography in epis 4-6 was atrocious in just about everything, even the Twi'Lek dancing scene.

[Shannow]

Ghambit your opinions cannot be trusted from here on out. No one with any sense of taste thinks Ep 3 was better than ROTJ. Unless you are so desperate to justify some sort of enjoyment from the stinking dog pile that was the prequels. The fight scene in Ep 3 looks like it was written and directed by a 13 year old.

[Ghambit]

I ate RotJ up as kid, got into Ewok Adventure stuff and all that.  Still think ep.3 was a better movie and the battle scenes definitely better.  Seriously, the gun and saber scenes in RotJ are so bad that really... you can't make a good movie out of it at all unless you're <10 yrs. old.

[HaemishM]

So which sabre battle was the best in the SW series then?? 

Phantom Menace's epic lightsaber fight between Darth Maul, Obi Won and Qui Gon was tops, followed by Luke/Vader in ESB. The final fight in Ep3 was just goddamn awful from start to finish, but it wasn't as bad as fucking Yoda bounding around while Palpatine throws the goddamn Senate at him.

[WayAbvPar]

All the trailer footage cut into one long trailer

They did a pretty good job mashing all of this together.

[Sky]

Bought my IMAX tickets, excited. I was good and only bought tickets for the one show, but I'll probably see it a few times. The old lady is being tolerant.

[MahrinSkel]

In terms of fight choreography, I'd have to go with Count Dooku/Obi Wan + Anakin + Yoda. But in terms of impact, Luke/Vader in Cloud City. Anakin/Obi Wan was just too over the top, I actually laughed at it the first time.

--Dave

[Goreschach]

All the lightsaber fights in the new trilogy were overproduced shit that looked more like interpretive dance than people trying to kill each other.

[Merusk]

People who think the Choreography in 4 and 5 don't know sword fights. Those were real fights vs. the bullshit, "Let's throw tennis pro moves" of the prequels. Plenty of stuff out there where actual swordfighters were disappointed with the bullshit of I-III because the fights in IV-VI were more realistic fights.

Yeah, yeah, space wizards with super reflexes. The point is that they were choreographed before all of the "Jedi are invulnerable space wizards with super-human abilities" of the 15 years of build-up after Jedi. They were originally envisioned as more Kendo-like fighters than swashbucklers.

[NowhereMan]

I'll chime in to say that frankly fuck realistic fight scenes. I do not want to watch an actual, for reals fight between two people on screen because it would probably 1) be short and 2) involve both participants taking as few risks as possible making the whole thing much less eventful (arguably it would build up tension well).

We're in an MMA vs. WWE situation here though, fake fights if well thought out can be far more entertaining. I think with the general level of FX technology in the 4-6 era that it was a good call. I also think that the finale in Ep 3 and fights like Yoda vs. Dooku were ridiculously over the top and dumb because of that. I don't think that adding in unrealistic flourishes and exaggerated moves is a bad thing in fight scenes though.

[Nevermore]

I'll chime in to say that frankly fuck realistic fight scenes. I do not want to watch an actual, for reals fight between two people on screen because it would probably 1) be short and 2) involve both participants taking as few risks as possible making the whole thing much less eventful (arguably it would build up tension well).

We're in an MMA vs. WWE situation here though, fake fights if well thought out can be far more entertaining. I think with the general level of FX technology in the 4-6 era that it was a good call. I also think that the finale in Ep 3 and fights like Yoda vs. Dooku were ridiculously over the top and dumb because of that. I don't think that adding in unrealistic flourishes and exaggerated moves is a bad thing in fight scenes though.

Really?  I'd take the Rob Roy swordfight over any of the prequel lightsaber fights any day of the week.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'll chime in to say that frankly fuck realistic fight scenes. I do not want to watch an actual, for reals fight between two people on screen because it would probably 1) be short and 2) involve both participants taking as few risks as possible making the whole thing much less eventful (arguably it would build up tension well).

We're in an MMA vs. WWE situation here though, fake fights if well thought out can be far more entertaining. I think with the general level of FX technology in the 4-6 era that it was a good call. I also think that the finale in Ep 3 and fights like Yoda vs. Dooku were ridiculously over the top and dumb because of that. I don't think that adding in unrealistic flourishes and exaggerated moves is a bad thing in fight scenes though.

We aren't disagreeing here.  There is a time and place for outlandish fight scenes and star wars could always have one or two mixed in but if you want to know how to do it wrong, just watch the prequels.

[Draegan]

Any fight in 4 through 6 are better than 1 to 3.

[Samwise]

[Merusk]

Video is better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hDwGQaTrVQ

[Khaldun]

I actually sort of like the Emperor and Yoda in the Senate. Partly because the Emperor is having a ball--he's had to be stealthy and careful but now he can just go ahead and be evil as all fuck and throw the Senate at Yoda, no problem.

I can't stand the Dooku vs. Anakin/Obi-Wan/Yoda sequence simply because the whole film has been so flat, the scene is flat, and even Christopher Lee can't really save his dialogue. I also hate the way that Dooku pulls objects down--to visually integrate that into the fight, he shouldn't be stopping to point and gesture and be elaborate about it. Hell, if he's going to do that, jump the motherfucker while he's concentrating and pointing and doing wizard shit.

Anakin v. Obi-Wan has flashes of good moments--the storyboards probably looked better than the finished product--interspersed with absolutely awful visual ideas and painful dialogue. "I have the high ground" just makes no sense at all given the kind of stuff they've been doing through the fight--just jump higher! Would have been better immediately if Anakin just jumped and Obi-Wan made his move on the legs, sudden end to it all.

Maul v. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan is definitely the best on pure choreography/music/feeling.

[Merusk]

I'll chime in to say that frankly fuck realistic fight scenes. I do not want to watch an actual, for reals fight between two people on screen because it would probably 1) be short and 2) involve both participants taking as few risks as possible making the whole thing much less eventful (arguably it would build up tension well).

We're in an MMA vs. WWE situation here though, fake fights if well thought out can be far more entertaining. I think with the general level of FX technology in the 4-6 era that it was a good call. I also think that the finale in Ep 3 and fights like Yoda vs. Dooku were ridiculously over the top and dumb because of that. I don't think that adding in unrealistic flourishes and exaggerated moves is a bad thing in fight scenes though.

Really?  I'd take the Rob Roy swordfight over any of the prequel lightsaber fights any day of the week.

I watched that fight again this morning. I always liked it but had forgotten just how good it is.

Maul, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan I agree was the best of the prequels. You also had two guys who know how to fight with weapons acting in that scene and I think they held a lot of Nick Gillard's craziness back. This is seen in the decline of the next two fights. Although Anakin vs. Obi-wan DID have it's moments, they were overshadowed by a lot of the twirly rave bullshit which was all over the place in the fight making it feel a hell of a lot longer. I also believe this to be the case because Gillard left Duel of the Fates out of his promo reel, but left in the fights from Episode II and III.

Nick Gillard does fights I just don't enjoy. Too much over the top bullshit meant to look great on film but is more 14 year old with a camera than anything else. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0-l0YoATaw

Episode VII brought in not one guy but a fight team. That team did did The Raid & The Raid 2, where the fights still had some over the top hyper-athleticisim but felt like real fights. Not glorified dance battles with glowsticks.
Sersan Jaka vs. Mad Dog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARYmqzWPCdk

[01101010]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC6dgtBU6Gs

My favorite sword fight. 

[calapine]

Arguing about sword fights, so nerdy.

Let's talk about the plot, like adults!

What about the fan theory that Luke is the antagonist in this film?

Reasons listed are:

• He seems to curiously absent from the poster.
• As well as the trailer.
• Masked figure in the film talking to Darth Vader's helm...duh.

[Goreschach]

It probably won't be true, even though it really, really should be.

Like back when everyone was hoping that Matrix 3 would reveal that the rebellion was the 'real' matrix.

[Evildrider]

I think they are just keeping Luke as their biggest character reveal.  As much as people love Han and Chewie, people love Luke for the Jedi aspect more.

[calapine]

It probably won't be true, even though it really, really should be.

Like back when everyone was hoping that Matrix 3 would reveal that the rebellion was the 'real' matrix.

Good points, yes. And leaving ambiguity is the perfect way to get people guessing and create hype...so.

And agree with you that it should be. Much more ageing ^{(edit: I meant engaging, but freud)} to have Luke (someone with emotional attachment for the audience) fill that role than some new Darth Whatever that no one heard about before entering the cinema.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Well it's very likely that Kylo Ren won't be force sensitive at all.  My impression is that the final battle will be between Finn and Rey because she's going sith for sure.

[RhyssaFireheart]

I'll chime in to say that frankly fuck realistic fight scenes. I do not want to watch an actual, for reals fight between two people on screen because it would probably 1) be short and 2) involve both participants taking as few risks as possible making the whole thing much less eventful (arguably it would build up tension well).

We're in an MMA vs. WWE situation here though, fake fights if well thought out can be far more entertaining. I think with the general level of FX technology in the 4-6 era that it was a good call. I also think that the finale in Ep 3 and fights like Yoda vs. Dooku were ridiculously over the top and dumb because of that. I don't think that adding in unrealistic flourishes and exaggerated moves is a bad thing in fight scenes though.

Really?  I'd take the Rob Roy swordfight over any of the prequel lightsaber fights any day of the week.

This sent me down the rabbit hole of YouTube video hopping until I ended up watching Jet Li and Donnie Yen fights. 

Not that I'm complaining, mind you.  But YouTube can be as dangerous as TVTropes.